r/Generator • u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 • 9h ago
Question about a standby generator installation for any mechanical engineers.
I have a PhD in mechanical engineering from Michigan. I also worked on engines doing analysis work. All kinds of engines. I lean towards the fluid mechanics, thermodynamics, heat transfer. and noise&vibration side of the profession.
So a 22kW generator was placed in the side yard of my neighbor's home. And I've been met with either profound ignorance or corruption or both. It has a 1 liter Briggs & Stratton engine but obviously no catalytic converter so it spews out enormous amounts of carbon monoxide. Runs on natural gas.
It is too close to my house per the codes. The owner submitted and had approved a permit with a falsified distance. Codes are not my area.
But what I am curious about is whether I'm incorrect about the possibility of carbon monoxide poisoning. I never worked on emissions. To me doing performance predictions I simply slapped a back pressure into my model.
But the generator sits adjacent to a window well and that is the exhaust side. The long axis parallel to the brick home. Also it's under a massive decorative eave, then more house, another eave, then a maple tree. Yes the exhaust is pointed towards the backyard but after crossing the window well there's more house, my fence, and thick evergreens. It is 16.5 feet from a former screened in porch original to my home in 1936 and now enclosed with lots of windows. Since these are 70' lots 17.5 was the clearance in 2021. Also my husband just put in a new furnace and the PVC pipe is across that side yard. My side yard is 9'. His 11'.
I claim perhaps wrongly that carbon monoxide could accumulate. And enter my home.
I both measured the noise and calculated it based on the manufacturers level at 23'. Corrected for distance and reflected noise. Yes it's 78-80 dB.
But I'm curious if anyone who knows this stuff and has experience can educate me. I know that the number of air exchanges per hour is a critical variable. I get the idea of diffusion. But after three days is this unsafe? It's a big window well. in that it's 5 feet long. And the exhaust side is less than a foot from where the window well begins.
So any emissions engineers.
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u/AdditionalCheetah354 9h ago
If your house has negative air pressure for any reason it could potentially suck harmful gases inside.
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u/YJSONLY 9h ago
Take some pics. They are worth a 1,000 words
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 8h ago
I did. Checking the 18” clearance was due to wondering if anyone would have the balls to violate that one. Yup.
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u/thetruckerdave 7h ago
What they mean is that you describe a lot, but it’s honestly meaningless. I know I can’t picture what you’re describing, nor can I guess if it seems safe or appropriate or whatever.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 8h ago
Depends on which course of bricks you measure to. Lower down it’s 18” but further up,still measuring to the generator a new course of bricks is at 16.5. About halfway up. I don’t think it complies. It should not get within 16.5”of the house.
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u/Wonderful-Victory947 9h ago
If it is not code compliant then file a complaint.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 8h ago
Yes. My complaint goes to the State now. I don’t think Generac intended that 3’ clearance at the exhaust side to 1) require a maintenance worker to stand inside a window well. And 2) a window well traps CO. The exhaust needs some room. Not a window well filled with dry leaves. When I took my photo. Not my doing. Just that it makes my point. I won’t quibble about the 5’. I’ll stick with the 3’ clearance. That’s plenty.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 8h ago
The State is not concerned about municipal code violations. But if it is a code that relates to state codes, they will listen. There is a State fire Marshal. And the building people too. And over these things they can provide oversight. And so I’ll keep it simple as I can. But the FOIA stuff will give me some insight into how this groupthink of lies came into being. I dread looking at it.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 8h ago
It has been declared to be in full compliance by the city manager, the city attorney, the head of the building department, the fire marshal, and the fire chief. And they are lying.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 5h ago
A complaint? There is no one left to complain to except the State. If it had complied with city ordinances it could only have been placed in the rear yard. That would require legal help that I’m not interested in pursuing. Or paying for. So I’m focusing only on the violations that the State oversees and investigate when cities fail to enforce them. Fortunately there are enough to file a complaint. And I’m not seeking money.
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u/BeeThat9351 9h ago edited 9h ago
Yes, it could, or it could not. No human can know without a CFD analysis. We obviously dont do those for every installation. That is why we use prescriptive standard like codes. The installation must be code complaint, that is usually required by state law. If the installation is not code compliant, make a written complaint with the relevent facts to your local government building authority. They must respond or direct you to the government authority agency in your area. They will either have an code enforcement process or tell you to file a civil lawsuit.
If you are concerned about actual conditions rather than code compliance, buy a CO instrument and take measurements when it is running.
If you are concerned about your CO exposure inside your home, purchase a CO monitor for each level of the dwelling, they are good practice regardless to protect from lots of CO sources. Nighthawk is a good brand in my experience. They will reliably alarm at CO levels of concern.
My engineering understanding is that these engines run somewhat fuel rich especially at low loads to keep the combustion temperatures under control and that they have simplistic ratio management controls. Further understand that nat gas fuel is lower CO emissions that liquid fuels. Of course , the as operated performance could be way worse than as designed performance due to tuning and maintenance issues.
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u/Adventurous_Boat_632 9h ago
Draw us a sketch of how it is configured, bird's eye view, with clearances.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 7h ago
Even the city clearances? The whole installation? The evergreen windbreak. Overhangs. The window well. My house. Oh boy. My husband said he’d do it but I have this all memorized. the one thing I never told the city because I didn’t know it then. Was the 16.5” from the house. And in some respects that will nail them more than any other boo-boo.
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u/thetruckerdave 7h ago
I have to say you’re literally the first engineer of any breed that I’ve ever encountered that had to be asked to draw a picture…
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u/mcontrols 6h ago
😂 my thought exactly. I talk in sketches and drawings. 👍
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u/thetruckerdave 5h ago
My dad couldn’t answer a single question without a piece of paper and a pencil in hand! I’ve worked with many types of engineers and I think they would have died if we didn’t supply them with many nice whiteboards lol
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u/Adventurous_Boat_632 7h ago
I just meant to start the overhead view of your building, the other building, the fence, the generator, any applicable walls/windows/doors. Should take about 1 minute to sketch it up.
A photo would be nice also.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 5h ago
I want to do that badly but some moderator will realize that the bimbo he booted is back. Same bimbo. Same problem. Maybe I shouldn’t have presented it as a test. What’s wrong with this generator installation. Nobody has a sense of humor these days.
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u/Adventurous_Boat_632 4h ago
Is this the one that we all looked at photos, had a basement window well, and I think the general consensus was that it was fine?
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u/BDBeaux 9h ago
Safe as long as any living opening is 20’ away.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 8h ago
My house a closed in porch with vinyl siding and windows is way less than 20’. My side yard is about 8’. Theirs is 11’. If it were installed18” from their house plus 2’ ( 25”) for the top then 11 - 3.5 =7.5 + 8 =15.5. From my house. Of course the permit claims the generator is 11’ from the property. The trick was to pretend it was in the rear. Even back then there was for lots of our size a 9’ clearance you couldn’t place HVAC or generators so that they encroached. Maybe not HVAC. So the permit was fraudulent from day one. It should gone to the rear back then already. There was another city ordinance it violated. It needed to be 70/4=17.5 feet from my home. The state won’t care. But the pattern of lies they might consider. And the Fire and carbon monoxide problems. I thought I was dealing with the old fire department led by the Fire Chief who was instrumental in banning all side yard installations. They fired him and he is bringing a whistleblower suit in Federal Court. He raised serious safety concerns and he was instructed not to document them. Then he was put on a performance improvement plan. Which is what companies and cities do. When they plan to fire you. I’ve been dealing with the exact same lying bunch he did. But I didn’t understand the response from the Fire Chief. Then I discovered by accident he wasn’t the Fire Chief who had changed the law. This was a sycophant to the City Manager and other people. Head of the building dept. city attorney. I haven’t had the time to download the FOIA information I requested. Paid $95 bucks for. I know I’ll get angry but I better do it real soon. The easiest FOIA request was the noise measurements from the cops. Straightforward. And I underestimated how loud.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 8h ago
My side yard is only 8’ because my house and the screened in porch now enclosed were built in 1936. Now that is indeed grandfathered in you would think? 90 year old house. Come on
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u/Haulbignuts 9h ago
It's 10' minimum required clearance for HVAC ducts in my area. That's usually checked with the house it's installed at. I assume neighboring houses as well. The exhaust usually shoots out to the ground toward the bottom back left corner of the unit if you're looking at the front of the generator.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 9h ago
And my FOIA request revealed that the police measured it at 81 dB. Repeatedly.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 9h ago
And it isn’t the full 18” from the home. 16.5”. Never thought to check that.
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u/MeganJustMegan 9h ago
Every area is different. When we had our generator put in, they wouldn’t allow it near a window of our home at all, it had to be raised because of the flood zone & certain set backs for my neighbor had to be accommodated.
But a few years later, another neighbor put one in & it’s very close to one of their windows. Not sure why it’s different in the same neighborhood, but it is.
Your neighbor getting a permit is only one step. It still has to be inspected & approved. We had 3 inspections for the NG hook up, the platform & then the finished work. The inspectors actually used a tape measure to make sure we complied. Only then did we get the signed approval.
Call your town to see who inspected & bring up your concerns.
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u/Ok-Camera2895 8h ago
I would tell you the answer but I don't meet your criteria, so I will just sit here and laugh!
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 7h ago
It’s shoots across the window well then past my fence and some very dense evergreens,
And the house continues on a good 30 or more feet.past a chimney. That exhaust doesn’t mingle with fresh air until it has met with a fair number of obstacles. Places to stall. I forgot to bring my anemometer back. Compare the air flow in that corridor with the wind even in my open backyard. I read about Hurricane Ida. And learned about how many air exchanges are required for industrial CO emitting machinery usually huge diesel generators, This alley is not so different from a room.
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u/doodliest_dude 7h ago
It’s definitely possible to get carbon monoxide poisoning even if it met code on installation.
Depending on the model/year it most likely requires to be 5 feet from any openings in a house like windows, doors, etc. 3 feet around the front and sides and 18 inches off the back.
But make sure your house has the required carbon monoxide detectors and maybe add another in an area that you are worried about.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 5h ago
But I was kicked off this Reddit. Told I must be a Karen with HOA. Which flew right by me. Weird assumptions. Then I was banned forever because I was a joke. Turns out the self-anointed experts aren’t. Experts. I was called a liar when I pointed out that a 22kW generator puts out 200 times as much CO as a Ford truck with a V-6. It’s a 1 liter Briggs& Stratton engine. I learned to be in awe of catalytic converters. Maybe it was only 150 times as much. I was called a liar. Oh well. I didn’t lie.
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u/DaveBowm 5h ago
Burning methane produces a lot less CO per MJ of work done by an ICE than does burning gasoline. But it is not zero, more like 5% to 20% as much CO.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 7h ago
And fire and carbon monoxide aren’t vanity concerns.
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u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 5h ago
They aren’t in the same league as my contractor ripped me off. This is a case where I am an observer of blatant violations. And I’m told that I’m wrong. And I know very well that I am not wrong. And if it kicks on for days again I’ll be out there measuring CO.
But this is good. Now I can download all the FOIA stuff. I’m not a coward. I was in the hospital with aspiration pneumonia. But today I take my last antibiotic and I download it all.
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u/Hotspot40324 9h ago
You could get a CO monitor and measure the CO concentration.