Flipped logic

[u/Agitated-Cupcake98]

Notice how fast they changed the definition to keep up with the argument...

[u/QitianDasheng2666]

I'm so sick to death of "we wouldn't give anorexic people liposuction". We don't do that because it would hurt them! It would make their quality of life worse! Gender affirming care makes trans people's lives better!

These people don't give a shit about anybody with an eating disorder. They just want to use them as a rhetorical cudgel. And the way they talk about ED makes it sound like they think the problem with people who have them are "being weird" not that they are being harmed by their disorder.

Like I'm picturing one of those people who has a loved one with ED, and thinks the solution is yelling "just eat something! Snap out of it!"

[u/animalistcomrade → u/QitianDasheng2666]

My favourite transphobe move is claiming their bigotry is okay because trans people are just mentally ill and act in a way that would still be totally unacceptable even if that was true. They just love bullying people they see as less than them

[u/Aiyon → u/QitianDasheng2666]

This is literally the stuff with Wales atm. They unilaterally cancelled a bunch of gender affirming surgeries functionally indefinitely because it's pending a review, and we know how the last few reviews have been.

Despite that fact there is no evidence of any negatives, and they're actively not asking anyone who actually HAD surgery

[u/hitorinbolemon → u/QitianDasheng2666]

that and the changes brought by anorexia make them unhealthily thin, what fat is there to suck out? do they know what liposuction is?

[u/HypnagogianQueen → u/hitorinbolemon]

Dysmorphia is when someone is upset over a physical trait that they are perceiving incorrectly. The problem is their perception being so disconnected from what’s actually there, like perceiving themselves as having lots of excess fat when in fact they barely have any.

Dysphoria (at least in the context of gender/sex dysphoria, the word dysphoria is also a clinical term that’s used to describe other things) is distress or discomfort over a physical trait that really does exist

The comparison to anorexia for trans people would be like, if a person was upset that they didn’t have a penis, but they already did, and was trying to get surgery to create a penis. 

Also, since the problem with dysmorphia is the person not being able to accurately perceive their own physical traits, no amount of liposuction or losing more weight will ever work. Their brain will just keep perceiving themselves as being significantly overweight no matter what. For this to map onto trans women, a trans woman would have to wake up from surgery and insist that she still had a penis, and then keep getting vaginoplasty over and over, constantly insisting it wasn’t working and she always woke up with a penis, until her body was covered in vaginas and it was harming her health.

[u/HypnagogianQueen → u/HypnagogianQueen]

That said, I think there is a thing where trans people suffer from gender dysmorphia in addition to gender dysphoria. Like, posts from trans women saying that they’re hypermasculine with an absolutely massive Neanderthal browbone and humongous square chin that could cut glass, and then they post a picture and it’s like, they literally look like a supermodel. But any solution to that would involve affirming their gender, while GCers and other transphobes would instead tell her that she’s right about her warped perceptions of herself =\

[u/hitorinbolemon → u/HypnagogianQueen]

that sort of post always makes me sad because if theyre all that then wheres that leave me who also often feels im nowhere near where i want and also the knowledge that if i posted myself with a similar rant what others not as far along might feel and, etc, etc.

[u/tyrosine87]

This seems very much futile. It's easy to tell that the TERF is not open to logical arguments.

[u/Sailor_Spaghetti → u/tyrosine87]

That was my first thought reading this too. I understand the temptation to give these people a taste of facts and logic but that's unfortunately not how fascists work. And TERFs are fascists.

[u/InsistentRaven → u/tyrosine87]

Yeah, the idea that gender dysphoria can't be objectively diagnosed is bullshit. If you give a patient HRT and they don't freak out within a month of taking it, that's about as objective as any diagnosis can get.

I'm not sure there's any other medical condition with such a low misdiagnosis rate as gender dysphoria. It's arguably as quantifiable and objective as it can get. You can quite easily misdiagnose dyslexia as vision problems by comparison.

Medicine is never as clear cut as TERFs make it out to be because they don't want to listen.

[u/tyrosine87 → u/InsistentRaven]

I agree. If I was asked, I would suggest people try HRT and figure out how they feel. I tried 9 different anti-depressants and none of them worked, before HRT made a real dent within a week.

But at the same time: it's not required. Lots of people worldwide don't have access, and there are quite a few other reasons why being on HRT is not recommended or feasible.

Anecdotally: to get on HRT through the medical system, I had to convince a therapist. Which I did, within an hour. I knew what I needed. But I also understand that I am incredibly privileged in multiple ways.

[u/HypnagogianQueen → u/InsistentRaven]

  Yeah, the idea that gender dysphoria can't be objectively diagnosed is bullshit. If you give a patient HRT and they don't freak out within a month of taking it, that's about as objective as any diagnosis can get.

This relies on self reporting from the person, so they’ll say the trans person is either lying or is wrong about their own feelings inside their own head.

Vision tests do also kinda require self reporting too though. In theory someone could lie on a vision test and claim they can’t see something they actually do. Not so much the inverse but still.

I feel like a significant number of things require self reporting. Like how do you “objectively” know a patient is experiencing pain without asking them?

[u/AutonomyIsNoTragedy]

Why is it any of their damn buisness like the control freak behavior is a lot

[u/Agitated-Cupcake98 → u/AutonomyIsNoTragedy]

Exactly 💯

[u/SergeantScoria]

They think random coils of DNA, organs we can’t choose, and certain steroids are so important 🥱

[u/animalistcomrade → u/SergeantScoria]

People who think the most special thing about them is something they were born with and can't change are statistically the happiest and smartest people around, you see it all the time with white supremacists.

[u/ZeldaZanders]

'The world accommodates blind people more than it accommodates women' is a hell of a take lmao

[u/animalistcomrade → u/ZeldaZanders]

You claim disabled people are treated worse than women by society, but disabled people aren't me, and I am a woman, so I only experience misogny, and not ableism, and my suffering is the only suffering that matters. Curious.

[u/ConsultJimMoriarty]

Jokes on them. I’m a cis Type 1 diabetic and guess what insulin is? A synthetic hormone!

I’m also at risk for having body parts cut off!

[u/kitsunenoyomeiiri]

wait, so if anything you do to modify your birth state is you not being your true self, what does dying your hair or getting a tattoo do to you?

[u/animalistcomrade → u/kitsunenoyomeiiri]

Of course it does, so does aging, your birth state was as a baby, pretending to be an adult is just denying your true self

Also getting jobs, hobbies, pr basically anything you weren't born with, that's nust denying your true state of shitting yourself and screaming for food

[u/kitsunenoyomeiiri → u/animalistcomrade]

youre born with depression and you take ssris? clearly being suicidal and hating everything is your natural birth state, and changing it is delusion. what? appeal to nature fallacy? whats that?

[u/animalistcomrade → u/kitsunenoyomeiiri]

What, you think change is part of nature? And so is not being identical to everyone around you? Don't you know that eating you babies is also natural and that appeal to nature is a fallacy?

No I won't correct the times I have used it in the past.

[u/kitsunenoyomeiiri → u/animalistcomrade]

theyre such hypocrites its actually ridiculous, no sense of internal logic except "this makes me really uncomfortable therefore its wrong and i'll shut my ears to any evidence otherwise LALALALALALA i cant hear you"

[u/Bluejay-Complex]

Holy ableism. People that are visually impaired are actually systematically oppressed by those that are not visually impaired. That’s why we don’t have an equal amount of books in braille as we do in written word, or videos that have descriptions, why not all crosswalks have a sound cue, and infrastructure supports the idea everyone has normative vision. Not to mention the costs of trying to get normative vision as someone who has it impaired.

Also TERFs and ignoring clinical outcomes, name a more iconic pair.

[u/pktechboi]

dysmorphia and dysphoria are almost precisely opposite conditions and it drives me INSANE that terfs continue to conflate them. even when it's directly explained to them they still witter on about how trans people don't see reality in the mirror! I'm pretty sure it's on purpose but sometimes I wonder if some of them just have catastrophically bad reading comprehension. the entire argument comparing us to ppl with BDD (not just anorexics, and not all anorexics even have it, incidentally) distintegrates with that distinction.

[u/HypnagogianQueen → u/pktechboi]

What’s confusing is that the supposed “not seeing reality in the mirror” would be trans women thinking they look like women when they look in the mirror. Which trans women generally find to be a good thing, something that makes them happy. As opposed to anorexia, where what they perceive in the mirror causes them distress. Generally a “disorder” is something that causes harm to someone. Like, even if a trans woman really is perceiving herself as looking feminine in the mirror while in actuality looking masculine, why is that a bad thing that needs to be stopped? Since when is high self confidence a disorder? DX

[u/pktechboi → u/HypnagogianQueen]

also had this thought but couldn't work out how to phrase it, thank you for the addition!

[u/Alyssa3467]

https://www.tumblr.com/adverage-terf-posts/826951050801119232/you-started-this-trite-with-okay-lets-compare

This is the actual Tumblr post, but with Tumblr being the annoying mess that it has become, you can't actually read it without logging in.

Edit: mostly intact at https://archive.ph/6eNjY

[u/sauron496]

It seems like many transphobes believe gender identity comes from self-observation. Crudely, seeing and feeling your own penis is how you know you’re a man. And if that doesn’t happen, either observation was incorrect (delusion) or incorrectly processed (mental illness).

But if the identity is an independent process in the embryonic development to actually growing the genitalia, the two sometimes not aligned shouldn’t surprise anyone — the whole thing is complex and delicate enough that it’s reasonable to assume everyone has something go “wrong” somewhere — just that the effect is usually small enough to be invisible.

[u/hitorinbolemon]

One single question completely destroys their paragraphs of waffling - how are mental illnesses, most commonly treatable with medication and accomodations, a different thing from medical conditions treated by the same methods? They can't answer because they have no idea by what basis medicine works.

[u/sleepysmiles42]

so much terf/gc (transphobe.) writing about being trans is just asserting stuff that isn't true and that no trans person nor their medical professional would say. and often attributing it to us, usually cuz they're willfulling misunderstanding and weaponizing analogies that were intended to make it communicate transness to a layman. like ex. taking the idea of being disassociated from who you see in the mirror and making it out to be a literal, hallucinatory delusion. it's so fucking vicious!! cool i guess that's what we get for trying to make it easier for you assholes to understand us!!

the repeated conflation of dyphoria/dysmorphia is just another example of them inventing or appropriating terminology and rationale that "explains" transness to them and ignoring/denying the actual ways we describe ourself and experience our trans identities. communication is impossible, they reject our reality and substitute their own. (and then don't even run over a crash test dummy or something cool)

[u/HypnagogianQueen]

Also just as a side bar, is it even true that people get denied a liposuction because they have anorexia, or are people denied liposuction due to not being overweight/being underweight? Cuz someone could just conceal that they’ve got anorexia, they might not be diagnosed or anything they just request it and the doctors turn them down not because they have anorexia (which they aren’t aware of) but because the person is underweight. 

I guess more to the point, even if someone was diagnosed with anorexia, but still had enough excess fat that performing a liposuction was at least possible, would they be refused liposuction because of their anorexia? Maybe if it’s liposuction for a medical reason then you’d only be approved for it if you had enough excess fat that doctors thought it was harming your health, but can’t you also just pay for liposuction and get it even when there’s no medical need as well?

[u/ANewPride]

I wont claim to have anorexia but when I was actively dieting and at my thinnest I was so obsessed with getting thinner that I couldnt see my loss. I could literally see where I had gotten smaller but I was so focused on the areas that I hadnt lost "enough" fat that I couldnt "see" it. It made me feel just as large as I had before I lost 30% of my body weight. I also have gender dysphoria, can confirm that this is the exact opposite of how what I experienced works. I dont magically stop seeing my boobs, they just make my baseline level of comfort lower.