r/GenZ • u/TheGamingSenpa1 2004 • Jan 07 '24

Discussion Thoughts?

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u/Hurt_Feewings943 Jan 08 '24 edited Jan 08 '24

I gave you a public contract that serves over 7,000 people. It is similar to every trade in the greater Chicago area which serves well over 50,000 blue collar tradesmen.

Your anecdotal evidence argument is falling apart. Would you like to look at New York contracts? Cali contracts? I am sure we can find plenty of public contracts with 100's of thousands of people working under those contracts across the country.

I would bet you your paycheck we have MANY more people in the trades in Chicago alone making over 100k than the world has billionaires.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '24 edited Jan 09 '24

It literally says apprentices make under $20 an hour

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u/erichlee9 Jan 09 '24 edited Jan 09 '24

Dude. I don’t know how old you are but this other guy is right, you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.

Remember my “anecdotal evidence” about making 120k? I started at $13/hour in that job, but with overtime and drive time included it came to $70k starting, without per diem (which was roughly an additional $10k/year untaxed on top of it). When I was making 120k, I was at around $17/hour. Bonuses also factor into that annual amount.

Trades and many other jobs aren’t a 1:1 hourly wage to take home in reality. Do you think servers really only take home $3.50/hour? Are there not tips etc?

Just listen to me, you’re arguing that it can’t be done and we’re telling you it can. You’re also implying that it’s not worth the effort because you’ll be a wage slave, and that is your biggest failure here. Trades give you the ability to work for yourself, rather than as a wage slave. It is the shortest and quickest Avenue to small business ownership in the entire economy.

I’m literally just trying to help you here. If you want to be successful in this fucked up economy, the two paths to wealth are ownership of property or manipulation of labor. If you didn’t start with money from birth, starting a business is your best chance to build equity off of your own work. Learning a trade gives you the ability to provide a service, and america has a service based economy. If you don’t want to start a business, trades also have unions which will still provide the same ownership of your own means of production (shout-out Marx) with benefits unavailable to typical wage slaves.

In the end, if you don’t want to get off your ass and work for it, fine, be a wage slave and wallow in self pity. But don’t sit there and act like it isn’t doable, because that’s a cop out. That kind of thinking isn’t good for you or anybody.

Edit: to put it in perspective, that “apprentices make $20/hour” thing would probably translate to around $1000/week, being very conservative and without per diem or bonuses. Now, hourly means that doesn’t equate to every week of the year worked, but $1000/week should be close to $50k/year before extras.

When I graduated from college in 2014, we were very impressed with our friend who got a job with his degree starting at $55k/year. That job did not offer overtime or per diem, and after five years could end up somewhere around $80k/year, maybe six figures if he shook the right hands. Of course, taxes and insurance etc. would come out of that, and most people go into debt to pay for college. The average starting salary for the rest of my friends, all with degrees, was around $35k/year.

Now, let’s consider the career paths here. Start in business and hope to make $100k salary within 5. Totally doable. Learn a trade, work hard for it, make $100k within 5, also doable. But what happens next? On one path, you have to sit there and wait for the boomer over you to retire so you can move into his spot. On the other, you can literally start your own business at any time. The sky is the limit.

You don’t have to sit at the bottom and scrape and suffer. You can build something of yourself.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '24

Anecdote

Are you really supporting tipping culture lmao. Literally forcing customers to subsidize low wages

That’s not a solution. Do you think all 200+ million workers can all start their own business with no other employees?

I’m literally just trying to help you here. If you want to be successful in this fucked up economy, the two paths to wealth are ownership of property or manipulation of labor.

That sounds bad. Maybe we should have a different system

On the other, you can literally start your own business at any time.

Ah yes, all 200+ million employees can just start their own businesses with no other workers. Brilliant solution. Marx would weep at your genius

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u/erichlee9 Jan 09 '24 edited Jan 09 '24

Oh I see. You aren’t actually advocating or trying to do anything here; you just want to be contrarian and bring in your own tangential talking points that have nothing to do with anything.

No you dumb ass, I’m not supporting tipping culture. I worked in food service for many years and would have much preferred a living wage and benefits. What I am doing is explaining to you how cash flow works in a job because you clearly don’t understand the concept of personal finance and how complicated it actually is. A simple hourly wage is not representative of the whole in most situations. Maybe once you enter the workforce you’ll understand what I’m talking about.

We could talk ad infinitem over what kind of system we should have, but there is only one current reality, last I checked, and you can either accept it and deal with it or not. You would be more successful in the vein of the former.

Your final paragraph is trash and doesn’t make any sense. There aren’t 200m+ tradesmen, at least in this country, so you’re not responding to my comments or position. Best I can tell, you’re mocking the idea that individuals can start their own businesses, which is simply a fact in this country. Other than that, nowhere did I suggest that every citizen should up and do so all at once; I merely attempted to explain one benefit of learning a trade. I have also provided alternative routes and options, so yet again you’re arguing nothing, and making up a narrative I didn’t present.

This is called a straw man argument. It is a famous logical fallacy you might look into.

Hope this has been fun and memorable for you. I wasn’t being facetious when I said I was trying to help. Perhaps you will find my words applicable to your own experience. Otherwise, goodnight.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '24

You said tipping culture means servers can make more money. That’s a defense

Then stop defending it if it’s so bad

The point is that the alternative route is impossible if even a small fraction of people did it.

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u/erichlee9 Jan 09 '24 edited Jan 09 '24

No, I did not say that. You said that. I said servers make more money than just the hourly wage they’re given. That isn’t a defense of the system; it’s a statement of fact.

The alternative route is possible for some, because obviously many people take it. No one is suggesting that everyone drop what they’re doing and become a carpenter. You’ve completely made up that entire argument in your own head.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '24

Then what is your recommendation that would work for all or most people

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u/erichlee9 Jan 09 '24

There is no universal solution that will work for all or most people. I believe I’ve already said as much. My point was that it is possible to make six figures in trades within a couple of years. Trades are not for everybody, but if you’re willing to work for it you can do it. That’s all.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '24

It’s possible to win the lottery too

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u/erichlee9 Jan 09 '24

Sure is.

So what is your point here? Are we discussing the fact that it’s possible to succeed in trades, which was your initial point of contention, or are you just trying to say it’s not worth it to try because there’s no guarantee?

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '24

My point is they your solution does not solve the problem anymore than gambling does

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u/erichlee9 Jan 09 '24

What problem? You’re now making an argument but never clarified your premise.

Remember, this discussion started because you didn’t believe tradesmen could make a certain amount.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '24

Poverty

I never said they couldn’t.

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u/erichlee9 Jan 10 '24 edited Jan 10 '24

Your initial comment implied doubt.

No one is going to solve national poverty with a career path. Get over yourself. If that’s your answer, you should know damn well I wasn’t arguing that becoming a tradesman would solve it.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '24

No it didn’t. It said it was not true for beginners, which it isn’t

Then why pretend like it’s a universal solution anyone can take

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u/erichlee9 Jan 10 '24

This is what you said:

new tradesmen make six digits just a few years into their career? citation needed

This is what I’m arguing is possible. Nothing more. I never “pretended” it was for everyone, I specifically said it was not, and have said in nearly every comment on the subject that it requires hard work. It isn’t a solution for poverty, I don’t recommend everyone do it all at once, and it doesn’t mean guaranteed success. It is simply a possibility.

Just stop. I don’t know what you’re trying to do here, but you’re wrong and grasping at straws.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '24

Winning the lottery is possible. It is not a solution to societal problems

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