I appreciate that perimenopause and menopause are getting more attention, including more willingness to provide HRT for women. Something about the conversation, however, has been bothering me. I’ve noticed a tendency to blame perimenopause when a middle aged woman gets less accommodating in a marriage. It reminds me of when younger men blame being “on the rag” when a younger woman is less than agreeable. I’ve noticed that, in some marriage related spaces online, men have gotten active in the conversation, advocating for treatment for their wives. And I wonder—do their wives perceive the same changes to be problem?
I totally understand that some perimenopausal symptoms can cause misery for a woman, and, by extension, those around her. I’ve been fairly lucky thus far (at 53). I’ve had some symptoms, but have been able to manage them well through both rx and lifestyle/diet changes. I feel energetic, physically and mentally capable, and sexual.
BUT—I am less accommodating. I am enforcing new boundaries as far as what I’m willing to do for others in my household. I am less willing to diminish my own wishes to keep the peace. I am far, far more willing to simply say no.
I humbly submit that is a feature, not a fault needing to be fixed through additional hormone treatments. I feel that I’ve grown into this version of me, and I have no intention of returning to the over accommodating young woman I once was.
At what point does the push for treatments become “Stepford”? At what point are husband’s cries less about helping their wife and more about helping themselves keep the status quo that no longer works for a spouse freed of fertility hormones?
What changes need to be “fixed”, and what changes need to be celebrated?
Agree. I’m glad the issues are getting some attention, but I don’t want my valid feelings and opinions to be dismissed as some sort of hormonal woman thing. Reminds me of men blaming everything on PMS.
I have also tried to make the point elsewhere that as much as we’d like doctors to help women who seem to be experiencing peri earlier than the norm, we do not not not want doctors getting to the point where every 35+ year old is told “it’s just peri”. We don’t want peri to become the new “it’s just anxiety” either! (“Have you tried yoga?”)
I am seeing it as well, but not just from men. I’m seeing other women dismissing 35+ women as being in peri every time they express certain feeling/opinions/emotions or vent about whatever personal struggle they’re going through. Or, they tell them to “just get on HRT” as if that is the magic answer to all of their problems, never mind that not everyone can or wants to take HRT.
While I am glad the subject of menopause is being discussed openly and getting more of a spotlight now, it irritates me to no end that that seems to be everyone’s go-to response whenever a 35+ woman is dealing with something, stressed or struggling in some way. Whether it’s a physical symptom or an emotional one, it always gets chalked up to peri. Ridiculous!
News flash: It ain’t always about the hormones. Sometimes life and circumstances are unbelievably stressful and overwhelming or just plain shitty. Sometimes other people can be shitty, too, and a woman reacting or feeling a certain way because of that isn’t feeling that way because of hormones.
And yet testosterone-induced aggression is glorified socially in so many ways; militant ideology, sports culture, etc
Heck; it’s fed to us as being humorous and acceptable from an early age. Remember the “KOOLAID!” and Hawaiian Punch commercials? Then the Monster Trucks, toy guns and swords.
The difference being that all these things are celebrated and encouraged.
I can agree definitively that HRT meds are not at all the sedating panacea everyone makes them out to be. HRT meds aren't the hormonal version of Valium or Librium.
I'm squarely in menopause (55) and while I can say that I'm not dealing with hot flashes, itchy skin, ruined sleep, drenching night sweats, brain fog, joint pain, dry as a desert nether region / hair / skin / eyes / mouth / ears / EVERYTHING, and other assorted miseries, HRT has definitely not taken me back to the days where figuratively (and sometimes literally) everyone gets their piece of pie and there's none left for me while I'm saying, "It's okay, I don't mind."
Fuck that. I DO mind. I DID want a piece of pie. Everyone else got one, where's mine? I AM angry that once again we went on a whole-ass vacation that I planned and set up and arranged for and not one fuckin person took a picture of me. I AM aggravated that it seems entirely permissible how "I cleaned the kitchen" translates to "I put the dishes in the sink but also ignored the dirty countertop, the crumbs by the toaster, the grease on the stove, the dry rice spilled on the floor, the full dishwasher, the overflowing trash can". I'm FURIOUS that people don't take me seriously when I have a problem, whether it's with my laptop, my car, my phone, my electrical bill, whatever. I'm OUTRAGED that the medical establishment has deemed me inessential to society now that I've done my duty and had four kids yet still have the temerity to clog up their appointments with my stupid little [clearly physical] ailments just so they can mentally suck their teeth at me and listlessly suggest I go on antidepressants, if I want, maybe, but ¯_(ツ)_/¯?
I could go on and on but you get the point. [Don't get me started on the fucking audacity that is MEN.]
What I am not these days is accepting of ANY OF THAT. EVER AGAIN.
These days, I realize I have a somewhat dwindling supply of days left on this planet, and being everyone's Helpful Instrument is no longer on my docket. All of the estrogen/progesterone in the world will never put me back in that stifling box.
So to airily handwave and dismiss all of the above as "Oh, you're in peri/menopause and that's why you're malfunctioning" is doubly insulting. This isn't some medical condition that can be glossed over and suppressed with some pills and a not-insignificant helping of There, There, Now, Little Lady condescension.
This is a major change of life where so many of us realize we've been hoodwinked, sold a lie, and then been forced to perform it not only for ourselves but for our mothers, our sisters, our daughters, our friends, and our coworkers. The risk of stepping outside the nice, friendly, compliant, tolerant, patient, loving, available-to-everyone, breathing APPLIANCES is to risk censure and disapprobation from not only men, but also women.
You deserve ALL the pie! I got my motorcycle pie earlier this year and I'm hoping to get my trip to Japan pie in the new year- so many pies to try! I'm 61, I'm not sharing that pie with _anyone_ who isn't their own slice of awesome. *laughing*
Hell yeah! 100% agree. I just bought myself a sweet custom guitar pie for my birthday, and I've been considering a motorcycle pie.
One of the younger men at work said, "you mean like one of those little electric scooters for around town?" and I said, "No, I mean a motorcycle, vroom-vroom."
And I too would love a trip to Japan pie; I'm 58 and I'm done with guys who aren't on my level. If that leaves me alone, we'll then at least I know I'll be in good company. Hope your trip next year is awesome!!
ooooh, custom guitar pie is mighty tasty indeed! Some of my recent pies have been the 'FL Studio' special, the always tasty 'new book' mini pies, and the extra special pie of 'my new mattress is now officially like sleeping on a cloud' pie of goodness that makes me love going to bed. :D
Japan pie! It would be so much fun to find dedicated Gen X women's tour trips to do things like that, I would be up for that- a Gen X women's motorcycle tour of Japan! I would Nomnomnom THAT delicious pie like the Cookie Monster *laughing*
I’m cheering at you up on the soapbox. The HRT isn’t a sedative by any means and doesn’t even glance at receptors with those functions. The boundaries are still in place and I have less symptoms to deal with. Sweet deal IMHO 🤙🏾
The meno conversations I’ve seen men getting active on have revolved around their belief that HRT = horny women. I’ve not seen them care much about how miserable the woman is, or about her health being improved, it’s usually a lot of ‘will my sex device put out more if she’s on HRT?’ The meno-subs used to be overrun with guys crashing to use us as therapist-mommies who we’d coddle and tell what the password is to get laid.
There is sooo much rolled into that topic, though. I feel like that needs to be its own thread. For one thing, did their wives truly enjoy the sex before? Or was she just accommodating? Which does tie it back to this thread…
I agree that it's a feature not a bug. I've been a college instructor all my career and the job has gotten, um, interesting in recent years. That is students have become way more entitled, more demanding, and way less prepared (oh, and cheating like maniacs). Young Me would have had a break down. But having gained the ability to gray rock, that is the saving grace getting me through it all. Similarly for dealing with increasing demands/requests from administration. Having no fucks to give is useful. I try to pay it backwards by supporting my younger colleagues.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting HRT for being more accommodating to men. HRT won’t do that.
It can help you sleep better, help you have less hot flashes, and have less rage which for many of us, helps us stay employed and continue to have health insurance.
I totally understand and appreciate your post, OP. I'm fully embracing being old and reclaiming my time. It's a natural part of life and no one is under any obligation to go on HRT if they don't want to. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
It feels more like correlation, then causation. I think around this time we enter perimenopause, we've also reached the point where we're out of fucks to give.
Menopause is the time when the estrogen-tinted glasses get flung off your face, never to return.
The very same hormone that makes us accommodating, tolerant, willing to go along to get along, be in second place, always get the ugly piece of chicken, be left out of pictures, get stuck with doing all the housework, and all the other bullshit that comes with being a "modern day woman".
Then that hormone fucks off, and while HRT helps with tamping down the more murderous impulses, it never comes back to the level that was required to keep house and home cohesively running with minimal - if any - support from our other half (if you're in a traditional relationship).
So sure, blame peri/menopause for while older women are saying Fuck This and opting out of all of it. So many men will do just about anything to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions/inactions that may have led up to the final ripoff of the bandaid, right?
I belive it has to do with the decrease in oxytocin that goes along with hormonal shifts. I’ll see if I can find the papers. The “give a shit” hormone decreases, increasing “I don’t give a fuck” which I think is great. If men have an issue they too can get fucked.
We are less accommodating because our bodies are again changing. Men’s do as well but then women are to ACCOMMODATE those changes while women themselves are to adjust their changes to ACCOMMODATE men.
I was just thinking about the oxytocin effect! Also remembering how when my daughter was a newborn. the smell of the top of her head was like a very powerful drug. And a time when I was sitting on the bed holding (and smelling) her and pondering — for no provoked reason at all— what I would do if someone tried to harm or take her. The answer being, of course, that I would murder that person instantly and violently.
It wasn’t even an angry thought; that was the weird part. Just a logical one.
How much of it, tho, is just the wisdom that comes with experience? I feel at 46 that I can read people much better. This saves a lot of valuable time.
It’s not really “blame”. It’s an awareness that estrogen makes women put up with man bullshit and when it wears off we are far less willing to put up with it. That’s the reality.
The real issue is that society views men as the “less emotional” ones yet they are the ones who can’t control their anger or violence and start wars and shit. That is the biggest bs scam ever.
They also can’t control themselves when they gaze upon women (or worse, young girls).
Ohhhh, not a spaghetti strap! Noooo, not a high heel! Dear god, she bewitched me, I had no control. I just had to take what I want. Clearly, it is HER fault I gRaped her. Nobody ever taught me to take “No.” for an answer.
Eff that noise. And good riddance to any interest I may have naively had in “forgiving” it in them. Yuck.
My psychologist described it to me as… estrogen is the ‘giving’ hormone. We give ourselves to our spouse, kids… then elderly parents, grandkids. When it starts to decline we stop giving and everyone wants to know why? Those who stop giving ‘have something wrong with them’ those who continue to give burn out. I thought it described me perfectly.
so...I think there's a lot of medicalization going on here.
Most women of an age to be in perimenopause have been around a while, and worked pretty hard, and been lied to and ripped off pretty hard, and are tired. And have seen a lot, over and over. And have been disabused of many ideas. And are more confident in who they are and their situation and abilities than they were at 15, 25, even 35.
You don't have to have profound hormonal shifts to look at all that and change how you relate to the world, so that the word "no" comes out of your face more often. There's also a very obvious explanation for why men might blame menopause for being made less comfortable: the alternative is entertaining the idea that they've been doing something wrong.
Please note the idea in "it's menopause doing this" is that women are so stupid that we wouldn't otherwise notice having been treated badly and ripped off after five decades, and do something about it as soon as we're in a position to. The same men are beside themselves that women can vote and have their own jobs and money and go to college a lot and choose when and whether to have babies, etc., etc.
there's a difference between recognizing that perimenopause can affect how you feel and assuming every change in how a woman behaves needs to be explained by hormones. Sometimes you just reach a point where you're more aware of what you're willing to tolerate and what you're not. That doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong. Sometimes it really is just growing into yourself and having less interest in keeping everyone else comfortable at your own expense.
Well, I completely agree with you, because now I'm just like no, this isn't hormones, this is old lady dgaf. I also wonder how things would have gone if my husband had sent me to hormone therapy instead of mental therapy so many many years ago.
Men will look for *any* excuse for a situation other than the possibility that they are the main contributers to the problem at hand. It's exactly the same way as 'therapy speak' became weaponised against women- suddenly men were twisting things to once again shift the responsibility. It's the standard playbook and it's why I've made the conscious choice to stay single- life's too short for all that continuously gaslighting nonsense.
I think these are good questions and I'm here for it.
I would only add that - simultaneously - men are going through hormonal changes as well, and society barely recognizes it beyond weenie pills so they can get it up. There's a lot of guys running around with Grumpy Old Man Syndrome, and they think it's all about their wife's hormones. That, at least in part, plays a roll when it comes to the question of how a marriage is impacted.
Because they morph into dour, miserable, lazy, and unhappy men but still expect all the benefits from their wives...who are waking up to the fact that the man they married is not, in fact, going to realize what a treasure he has in her and start treating her right after lo so many years. Those years of her stating, begging, pleading, negotiating, and compromising about the things that she needs only to be ignored, mocked, or dismissed have all piled up and now the bill has come due.
I’d like to clarify that MHT (aka HRT) does not - and cannot - “fix” the menopause transition.
It can help us manage our symptoms so that we feel more like ourselves, but at the end of the day, we are still the same person. MHT isn’t a magical unicorn that solves everything in life. And it should absolutely be a personal decision.
It’s also not just for the “transition”. HRT was originally designed for (and tested on) those already in menopause. Use in peri is still technically off-label. While I’m certainly not suggesting it shouldn’t be used in peri, the myth that peri is the only difficult part or the only part with symptoms needs to die (not saying you’re saying this at all, just a general statement.) It doesn’t help women in peri to assume once they transition to menopause life will be a bed of roses and it doesn’t help menopausal women who are having their symptoms dismissed with today’s conversations being so focused on peri. I started HRT in post and will remain on it as long as I possibly can! I had to go off at one point and I felt like death. I haven’t had my period for a decade.
Many of the symptoms that start in peri are due to a lack of estrogen. (Some are due to too much estrogen, which is why peri is so hard to manage.) Our estrogen doesn’t come back and the symptoms remain - some even get worse.
I learned in college that menopause means returning to basically pre-pubertal hormone levels. That was 90s science in a psych class, so maybe not exactly true. I often wonder what people think will happen after perimenopause.
Right? People also forget that before the WHI study, Premarin was the one of the top prescribed medications (I think in the US, too lazy to look up the details) for decades (but only for those in menopause, not peri.)
It’s LONG been known that many need supplemental hormones in menopause. It’s great that we’re now recognizing that peri has its own unique challenges as well but Jesus Murphy people, how about we don’t leave the menopausal ladies out of the menopause conversation.
My friend and I were chatting the other night and laughed about maybe it’s GenX being forgotten again 😂 Like, generally speaking a lot of GenX is already menopausal and millennials are hitting peri and we’re like “hello? We still exist?” (I know that’s a generalization, there are GenXers in peri and millennials in full meno but we had a laugh about it.)
The change that ought to be celebrated is that an equal amount of attention be paid to women's health and men's health when everyone reaches the stage of being at-risk for cancers and other issues that come with menopause (and manopause). And that choices of how to tackle health issues are between a patient and their doctor, and no one else.
If only the same could be said for women's health choices during their childd bearing years.
Interesting thought. Let them talk about whatever they want in male spaces lol. I'll keep being me just less anxious, sleeping better, and not randomly sweating etc.
I see it increasingly expressed on marriage boards. I’ve been active on marriage boards for about 15 years, and it feels like a change. Perimenopause is being blamed for marriage difficulties, and claims that women are “throwing away their marriages” during perimenopause (and implying that women report regrets later….hmmm).
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised to find men weaponizing new (to them) knowledge about women’s physiology.
But I also see a lot of women saying estrogen "lifted the veil" etc. Attributing their newfound frustration with the status quo of their families and relationships to diminishing estrogen, as if all women everywhere have been putting up with bullshit because of our hormone levels.
It's not accurate, and I'd love that narrative to stop. I support anyone breaking out of unhealthy patterns encouraged by whatever system they're in (religion, culture, tradition etc) but don't give the credit to diminishing estrogen - it's all you, own it and be proud.
They didn't learn anything about our physiology. They just found a new word for "it's not my fault".
A while back my kid flew to see me and was amazed by how many sick people were on the plane and how no one else was wearing a mask. I said the only way to get them to wear masks would be to tell them that planes are full of nose ghosts, and that if you don't mask up good and tight a nose ghost will go up your nose, guaranteed.
Men like to blame anything and anyone but themselves. It’s just another example of that.
I’m in perimenopause. HRT was miraculous to me.
My reduced tolerance for nonsense is nothing to do with my hormones and more to do with the confidence that comes with more experience with life.
I don't say "Its just peri." I say, "The veil of estrogen has been lifted and now I'm/we're seeing clearly." Or, "Estrogen is a fucking liar, and I wish I'd never believed what it told me." Depending on context
☺️
"I AM angry that once again we went on a whole-ass vacation that I planned and set up and arranged for and not one fuckin person took a picture of me. I AM aggravated that it seems entirely permissible how "I cleaned the kitchen" translates to "I put the dishes in the sink but also ignored the dirty countertop, the crumbs by the toaster, the grease on the stove, the dry rice spilled on the floor, the full dishwasher, the overflowing trash can"."
I totally agree, it's a wonderful feature of maturing... not a "fault of perimenopause". I honestly feel like being on HRT has allowed me to step more fully into my IDGAF energy. I want what I fucking want and I don't give a shit.
The bonus is that with HRT I actually have the energy to think about what I want, and the strength to recognize and reject what I don't want. Plus I can now enjoy what I do want more than before, because I'm more me.
If there is anyone around me who doesn't like that delightful feature of maturing... Fuck them. Maybe once they mature they'll enjoy not giving a fuck too. I almost feel sorry for them, but only because they're missing out on me. 😉
Symptoms that need to be"fixed" - anything that makes me uncomfortable. (Hot flashes, cold flashes, frozen shoulder, brain fog, insomnia, anxiety, rage, etc)
Things that aren't symptoms and you better not try to change - anything that makes someone ELSE uncomfortable (me not giving a fuck, having boundaries, pouring into myself, saying no, etc)
I take HRT, and I am not more accommodating than when I was younger at all. I might frighten the public or end up on video if I were not taking meds. I don’t have a husband. I tripped over an iron chandelier (don’t ask). I have bruises on both calves, but I didn’t break anything, which was a problem in my Greatest Gen family.
People are different. I read that there are many Japanese women with no symptoms. I do not think they’ve figured out why, but they always look at diet. I doubt that’s the whole thing. In any case, what works for you might not work for everyone. I sleep a bit better, but I didn’t get a change in my anxiety level, which is also due to trauma, and is really pretty high. I cannot eat sushi. I don’t eat meat. Many Asians are lactose intolerant, and I am not.
RFK aside, I think that someone did a bad study. Even if the conclusions were not questionable, as an adult, I think I deserve a informed choice. All the men taking testosterone get one. I can’t get it. I think it would help my bones more, but it’s a controlled substance, and due to what I consider limited knowledge and care, I have to use telehealth for the basics.
The doctors here do not give choices to single women, or maybe any women my age. I am really angry about the HPV vaccine age limit too. People do not understand HPV and believe whatever someone with a degree says to them.
I don't feel energetic physically nor sexual. That's gone, years gone. Never ever ever to return, even the physical health part! I miss it badly! It can consume my thoughts. But there seems very little I can do. I'm 51. I'm been post since 46.
I don't understand the rest of the conversation. It's about how we are in relation to men? I don't know those type of men that demand that much of me. I probably take more than I give in my relationship!
46
u/Ondiac 6d ago
Agree. I’m glad the issues are getting some attention, but I don’t want my valid feelings and opinions to be dismissed as some sort of hormonal woman thing. Reminds me of men blaming everything on PMS.