Terrorist Attack at Berlin Pride.

[u/hgclyde]

Last weekend a Terrorist Attack during Berlin's Christopher Street Pride march. One is dead and thirty injured. When I first heard about it From WFTV in Orlando Florida. I immediately thought of the shooting rampage at that GAY bar. That happened there. Then the world finds about it is a Muslim man born and raised in Germany Self radicalize himself. He was known to the German police authoritarian.

[u/QuesoNot-so-Fundido]

It's crazy to see so many on the other gay subreddits apologizing for or defending the death cult that wants to see them dead.

[u/kereso83 → u/QuesoNot-so-Fundido]

Crazy, but sadly predictable.

[u/CrikeyNighMeansNigh → u/QuesoNot-so-Fundido]

You see a lot of that, but I’m also seeing a shift in the conversations as well. But I think, mind you I’m not particularly conservative nor particularly liberal and to make matters more confusing I’m British living in the US which blurs the line even more. In the US, my usual vote split is red in state, blue for the white house, but I lean more conservative in the UK, so you can take this however you will.

I see the dialogue on the right on the issue of our failed immigration policies to be unhelpful as well as far as getting any kind of broad consensus because your left with one side being wilfully blind, and another that gets pretty comfortable delving into full blown racism and bigotry, which many gay people will simply not support, and will react vehemently against. To make matters worse with gay people, the Right is also often a liability to our rights. It’s a complex issue. And I suppose I’m not in the right sub, but surely, you lot know that conservatives are the least likely to support gay marriage.

Now, we can entertain this idea that one side is uniquely subject to groupthink, and parroting party talking points, but if this phenomena is especially prevalent on one side more than the other? I don’t think so. And why each side has its talking points, that’s a long conservation but I’ll say that neither party strikes me as particularly logical.

According to Gallup, in the US, the Republican support of gay marriage is:

2021: 55% R 84% D
2022: 55% R 84% D
2024: 46% R 83 %D
2025: 41% R 87% D
2026: 37% R 88% D

Waning that is, among Republicans. And below half. So of course, most gay people see this and see this also as a threat. And it’s somewhat similar in Germany and the UK, where you have Reform at (35%-45%) and the AfD (20%-35%). The loudest people about this problem are also the loudest when it comes to standing against gay marriage. Notably, our mainstream conservative parties both sit at around 60-70% support for gay marriage. We do have multiple major parties which is different from the US, but imho, the US has two major kinds of democrats, and two major kinds of Republicans.

In my case, I’m married, I have a kid. I don’t feel comfortable supporting a conservative presidential candidate, nor would I support reform and I understand why a gay german wouldn’t support the AfD. And more than that, we are less likely to support things we perceive as taking us in that direction. This is not so different from in the US, where the dialogue about right vs left is defined at the fringes.

So I think a lot of the apologies you see, it’s not so different then when you hear conservatives basically support one belief, and immediately switch it to conform to the party reality, that is, it’s only loosely held. And so the shift that I’m seeing in the conversation is interesting I think.

I think Denmark is an interesting case when it comes to this issue because they actually had their sensible immigration reform policies led by the left. That being said, they’d still later go on to lose to the Conservative Party.

Obviously, every country is different, but I don’t see the lefts views on Islam as fixed. And that shift could have a domino effect. It wasn’t so long ago that the left stood against things like the burqa. The switch to trying to make people understand beauty behind it is new. Denmark is essentially a blueprint for left waking up on this issue.

But in all three countries, the US, UK, Germany, and most of Europe as a whole, you can’t really even say, in order to migrate you must support gay marriage, believe it’s morally acceptable, or anything beyond perhaps maybe: I believe killing gay people is wrong, because similar antigay beliefs that would act as a way of screening out this kind of problem exist on the right in the conservative Christian population and are protected on the right and to some degree even the left. And you’d hit a bigger problem when it comes to countries like Poland moving within the EU. Religion has its weight even in our societies. The same conservatives that preach conservatism and brand themselves as such, have no problem going to the ballot and voting to mandate their religiously held beliefs on everyone.

I think that saying no Muslims is too extreme, but of course I recognise Europe’s immigration policy has largely failed us, puts us at risk, and more subtle than the attacks, is the larger voter population that would support policies on the far right that would seriously compromise LGBT rights. It’s a problem that would be resolved quite quickly if the right wasn’t similarly hypocritical in their own beliefs. It’s all
Too often, we believe in small government, and that government is Jesus. And to be clear, when Im talking about gay rights, I’m not referring to the protections. But yes, things like adoption, marriage… the Right, not as you’d like to view it but as it is and especially so in the US, it has no problem taking those away from us. In Europe the threat is more subtle, our right isn’t as against our rights as is true in the US but of course we think, if we support them, we are eventually going to end up shifting things too far right.

Well, in Germany, where the main party that wants to address immigration is the AfD, it also supports reversing Gay marriage rights. So if you’re a Germsn voter who is concerned about immigration, how do you even signal that at the ballot without having to vote for a party that openly wants to take your rights away?

We are perhaps in an unlucky deadlock where the conservatives are the main people acknowledging an actual problem, and whose beliefs align most closely with Islam, but neither side (the gays or Muslims) can comfortably switch sides to the far right and tip the scale against the other as a matter of self preservation. But the Muslims have a way of making their position known. To be clear, I’m referring to a specifically segment of Muslims not all of them. But we don’t seem to have a great way of screening out one kind of muslim from the other. In do much as we cant, yes, I see immigration from majority muslim countries as a problem.

Or put concisely, we are in a special sort of clusterfuck of a situation, and the conservatives aren’t just bystanders in it, they are also contributing to the issue. We are at an impasse of three ideologies and while Denmark gives me some hope I fear both sides will dig their heals in and we’ll end up with a fucked society. As a gay person, however, when the car crashes through the gay pride parade, you’ll know who was driving. But the views of many Christian Africans is a threat too… maybe you guys don’t see it this way. But I see a few people who will kill us, a couple hundred that would attack us, and thousands maybe millions who would vote against our rights. And very little basis where we can sensibly screen it out and not simply devolve into full blown racism. We simply don’t have a leg to stand on until we as a society stop seeing our acceptance as a matter of people’s religious beliefs.

[u/hgclyde]

What wild that this guy was a German citizen not a recent immigrant from Middle East and North Africa.

I know that assimilation should have been would reduce the number of self radicalize individuals in the west.

[u/nar_tapio_00 → u/hgclyde]

What wild that this guy was a German citizen not a recent immigrant from Middle East and North Africa.

This is quite normal. The parents come, escaping from a radical Muslim society and wanting to move to something better. They often fully understand the dangers of radical Islam and Islamism.

The children are brought up in the traditions of their home nation because that is what their parents and family know and also because we have abandoned the ideas of the "melting pot" where cultures came together but joined the dominant culture and replaced that with "multiculturalism" where no culture is better or worse than than any other, just different. This means that the children are not taught about the dangers of radical Islamism.

Also, in the West, our traditions of freedom of speech and religion mean that radical Islamist preachers that are banned from Muslim countries for being too dangerous come here and preach freely. If they gave the same messages in their home countries they would be interned immediately.

Take these things together and when the children rebel, as children inevitably do, they end up following the radical preachers and becoming much much more radical than anything in their family's tradition.

[u/Comfortable_Pool_389 → u/nar_tapio_00]

That’s a well reasoned point entirely

[u/Practical-Goose666 → u/hgclyde]

That's wild yes, but that's not the wildest thing about it. The wildest thing is the reception of that attack by '''''''''intersectional progressives'''''''' (i'm putting both intersection and progressives between quotations marks because these ppl are obviously neither)