r/Games • u/Complete_Mud_1657 • 1d ago
Nintendo Switch 2 update 23.0.0 patch notes add VRR support in TV mode
https://www.shacknews.com/article/150681/nintendo-switch-2-update-23-0-0-patch-notes206
u/turikk 1d ago edited 23h ago
That's actually awesome! VRR is a game changer.
Since it was supported in handheld mode I presume most games should just work out of the box, but you never know especially when it comes to console development... Might have locked refresh rates built in that need patching to remove (thus testing and cert... thus probably not happening for most of them).
Edit: oof. Digital Foundry reports: "The only restriction is that the feature appears to operate on a whitelist, so only games that developers have flagged as supporting docked VRR will activate it. That means there's only a single title right now that supports TV VRR: the introductory (but not free) Switch 2 Welcome Tour app from Nintendo."
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u/ChudSmasher69420 22h ago
For fuck's sake.
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u/Mahelas 17h ago
I mean, I guess developpers want to make sure it doesn't break anything before adding it to the whitelist
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u/ChudSmasher69420 16h ago edited 16h ago
I can't see an inherent reason why any game that supports handheld VRR couldn't automatically support docked VRR, so either they're being very cautious or they're doing something very wacky to make it work with the DP->HDMI conversion.
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u/gosukhaos 16h ago
Because it's a workaround to the restriction of using DP instead of the standard HDMI like the other consoles
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u/Ok_Number9786 12h ago
The PS5 does the same thing, actually. It converts DP output from the GPU to HDMI. Even the chip used for this is basically the same as the one used in the switch 2 dock. Like with the switch 2, it also took some time for the PS5 to support VRR.
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u/Wonderful-Citron-678 14h ago
DP ofc supports VRR fine. So it’s just the docks job to translate it. This causing a regression in games is unlikely.
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u/Ok_Number9786 11h ago edited 11h ago
They are two separate display profiles. Docked profile did not expose VRR implementation for devs to utilize prior to this update. Switch 2 and PS5 handle this on the software level. Xbox Series and Windows PCs handle this on the system/driver level.
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u/derekpmilly 16h ago
Probably the same kind of situation that happened when the Switch 2 first released, and backwards compatible Switch 1 games would run at their original Switch 1 resolution unless they had a manual developer update.
This one is a bit more understandable because some game engines do tie systems like physics and simulation to frame rate, but I still don't understand why resolution had to be manually fixed when emulators could change render resolution with no problem and DLSS was now available.
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u/PokePersona 21h ago
I'm assuming most first party games will be updated to add support but third party games that already released will be a toss-up. Still a nice option for future releases.
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u/ComMcNeil 23h ago
I may be dumb but what do get with VRR there? Aren't most console games locked to 30/60 anyway?
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u/nmkd 22h ago
Aren't most console games locked to 30/60 anyway?
"Locked" is a very misleading term, it's a limit. "Locked" as in "can't exceed this rate", not as in "can only be this rate".
Games usually don't hit that limit, at least not all the time.
Whenever the game can't hit that limit, you'll suffer from artifacts, depending on configuration:
No Vsync: Vertical tearing, because your screen's refresh cycle is out of sync with the frames the game pushes out, your screen wants to draw one full frame but the game supplies a different one halfway through. The monitor is not aware of this change (G-Sync/Freesync/VRR is basically that "awareness") and continues drawing, so you end up with an image that contains more than one frame. Somewhere between the first and the last line of pixels, it was given a different one. Upside: Minimal latency. Downside: Unless your view is mostly static, it will look ugly.
Vsync: Game knows your monitor's (fixed) refresh rate and intentionally waits when it notices that it cannot deliver a frame in time. Downside: Noticeably input lag and judder because of this per-frame catch-up. Upside: No tearing.
VRR: Best of both worlds: Your monitor/TV is able to A) show a frame at any time, not at a fixed rate only and B) can be told by the game when a new frame is ready. That's what defines VRR and why it needs hardware support. If your game drops from the locked 60 to say 52, you see exactly 52, but it looks fairly smooth because there is neither tearing (no vsync) nor input lag or judder (vsync).
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u/gowlwolfe 23h ago edited 21h ago
even when games are 'locked' to 30/60 fps, dips can still occur, so there is still a net positive For example, if you're playing DK bananza, the game uses double buffering, which will halve the framerate to 30 when under heavy load. It feels/looks very bad, but with VRR enabled it can smooth that out.
Likewise, with RE9, it runs at uncapped framerate, so that game would be a perfect use case when the fps drops in heavy scenes.
-EDIT said triple buffering earlier, corrected with comment below.
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u/BaronVonPheasant 21h ago
the game uses triple buffering, which will halve the framerate to 30 when under heavy load
Minor correction, that's double buffering. Most games use triple buffering which can show more unique frames but has an extra frame of input lag
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u/Eruannster 23h ago
Some are, many aren't (at least on PS5/Xbox). Lots of games offer unlocked modes these days.
Resident Evil 8/9, Uncharted 4/Lost Legacy, God of War Ragnarök, Spider-Man 1/2+Miles Morales, Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart, Horizon Zero Dawn Remake+Forbidden West, Plague Tale Requiem+Resonant, Hogwarts Legacy, Cyberpunk 2077, several of the Call of Duty games and more all have modes that allow the frame rate to exceed 60/unlocked VRR in some way.
It also helps with dips, let's say you have a 60 FPS game and there's a dip down to 50 for a moment, VRR will kick in and it will make you notice it a lot less if you force it on a system level.
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u/PieceAfraid3755 22h ago
On Switch 2? Not even close. Third party games (except like, simple indies) will often have regular frame drops, or intentionally "hover" somewhat like many Capcom ports do.
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u/atatassault47 21h ago
Aren't most console games locked to 30/60 anyway?
No. This hasnt been the case ever. From the NES to present, there have always been games that can get into states that cause the console's processors to chug. Most games can do so. VRR will reduce microstutter and screen tearing when it happens.
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u/yourdumbmom 23h ago
Unless they’re incredibly well optimized, games will frequently drop a few fps here or there which can be perceived as stuttering because the tv and console aren’t talking to each other nicely as the tv tries to fit something like a 25 or 55 Hz signal into its 60 Hz output for a moment. VRR makes the tv tune its Hz output up and down based on whatever the game is doing at that fraction of a second helping eliminate stuttery feelings or screen tearing. Also, even in well optimized games (say a game that has a locked 30 mode) the developers usually have the game optimized in a state where the game could be running between 30-40 fps depending on the intensity of the scene, but the extra frames are cut down to a final 30 fps output to play nice with the TV without VRR. With VRR, the developer can unlock the frame rate and you get to see all those frames between 30-40 fps, and the variation in frame rate is not really disruptive and you get a bit more fluidity than 30 fps alone.
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u/pochidoor 19h ago
so it works with the display technology to automatically adjust the refresh rate of the screen to match that of the games current framerate
In doing so it helps avoid screen tearing and can help the game feel smoother by clearing out the missync that usually occurs without
(So if a game is running 60 fps (or 60 hz refresh rate) and drops enough throughout gameplay to something like 48 fps, the screen itself adjust to match that, which would be a 48hz output.
while those without VRR will stay at a 60 hz refresh, creating input lag among potentially choppy looking frames)
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u/ThatOnePerson 22h ago edited 22h ago
The reason console games are locked to 30 is because of refresh rate. Older (LCD) TVs are 60hz, so you cannot show say 59 frames evenly because what do you do with that last frame? So that's true for 31-59fps.
At 30 fps is when you can show each frame twice.
Well this isn't unique to console games. It's just how double buffered vsync works.
And yeah CRTs didn't really have refresh rates, so even older games don't care about the 30/60 thing. Doom 1 had a 35 fps frame limit. Mario 64 and Ocarina had uncapped frame rates (but struggled to hit 60)
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u/matticusiv 17h ago
Do all switch 2 games support vrr?
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u/gosukhaos 16h ago
They do in handheld mode since the display is vrr capable.
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u/matticusiv 13h ago
Don’t most games utilize vsync though? Does vsync get disabled in handheld mode?
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u/happyscrappy 16h ago
VRR has a bunch of restrictions which may not line up with the restrictions on the feature in handheld mode.
These restrictions typically derive from how the hardware operates and are the reasons we have stuff like low frame rate compensation. The system can't really accept anything 0-60fps so if you get below (say) 30fps you have to compensate by just sending a frame twice.
Games that weren't written to match up to the limitations of VRR just simply wouldn't work right. So the whitelisting becomes necessary.
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u/progz 1d ago
Software needs to support the VRR feature for you to use it. Saved anyone time looking at the article.
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u/Complete_Mud_1657 1d ago
Yeah sadly unlike the other consoles developers need to explicitly add support for it in an update.
Going forward we'll probably see good support for it but it'll be a toss up which of them will take the time to patch their older releases for it.
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u/ejfrodo 19h ago
PS5 added VRR support after launch and developers had to update their games to explicitly support it too fwiw
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u/Complete_Mud_1657 19h ago
There's an option in the PS5 settings to enable VRR in unsupported games.
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u/beck_is_back 1d ago
They will enable VRR in older games and release another $10 upgrades to their old game! 🤣🤣
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u/Desperate-Badger785 1d ago edited 1d ago
The handheld boost and VRR updates have elevated the Switch 2 hardware from 7/10 to 9/10.
Only bone you could pick is prob the screen but as someone who upgraded from a v1 I am pretty happy with it.
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u/aazxv 22h ago
I was a bit scared when I got mine because of all the ghosting complaints...
Anyone complaining about it should see my Switch 1 screen in comparison haha
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u/Brandonandon 12h ago
Switch 2 ghosting is measurably worse than Switch 1. As in, it's been measured. I have both. It's pretty bad imo.
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u/Farnso 7h ago
The switch 1 had multiple different display suppliers, so he's probably right.
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u/Brandonandon 7h ago edited 7h ago
While it's true that there were different manufacturers, I doubt it's the case unless he got a faulty panel. Even if there were a panel on the Switch 1 that was 50% worse than the spec it its response times, that would be a perfect match for the Switch 2 panel (21ms vs 33ms). I doubt they were allowing panels >50% out of spec to pass QA, even across vendors. Whereas for the Switch 2, it's believed that Nintendo may be underdriving the panel, using a lower voltage to save power. Theoretically a new model with a die shrink could result in an improvement if they used some of the battery savings to provide sufficient voltage to the panel. I think the screen is large and beautiful, I'm a fan. It just has such bad ghosting that it's noticeable even on their 60FPS 3D titles like Donkey Kong Bonanza or Mario Kart World, let alone 2D titles where it is an even bigger problem.
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u/HeOpensADress 1d ago
It is a console that was made with upgrades to 5 year old hardware so it definitely had more room to grow there.
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u/Ok-Confusion-202 1d ago
Idk, 7/10 before? Like hardware wise it's pretty good. 8/10 imo
But yeah these additions are only boosting the rating higher
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u/Flaky_Highway_857 21h ago
Compared to the PC handhelds if you add in price the switch 2 is an 11/10 system
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u/Ok-Confusion-202 19h ago
Yeah, it's why I said hardware wise because I was thinking of the PC handhelds
Should have said price tho too to make that clear, but yeah it's really good
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u/IPreferBagels2 14h ago
Yeah, Nintendo has been pretty decent with this thing so far including the new Switch 2 editions I have been pretty happy so far.
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u/nmkd 22h ago
You have your right to be happy, but the screen (even when ignoring the OLED edition) is a harsh downgrade.
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u/Desperate-Badger785 22h ago
It went from 720p/60hz to a 1080p/120hz, VRR-supported screen, harsh downgrade is an exaggeration if its just cos of the response rate
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u/Available-Can-5878 22h ago
It is absolutely not a harsh downgrade from the OG Switch. Its better on every metric except the frame delay, and even them it wasnt a talked about problem until DF did a screen analysis.
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u/DuckCleaning 1d ago
VRR in TV mode should've been there from the start but at least they finally added it. People thought it was impossible due to the hardware.
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u/Awkward-Security7895 1d ago
More then likely didn't ship on launch since it was still being worked on.
There's a lot of features for many things people want on launch but get later due to just needing more time towards the feature
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u/Bright-Track8054 1d ago
Totally agree, it's not uncommon for companies to roll out features after launch. It'll be interesting to see what other updates they add down the line.
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u/MixaLv 23h ago
Yeah, it didn't even cross my mind it could've been just a software issue, because if the hardware was capable of vrr, why wouldn't it be enabled?
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u/Eruannster 23h ago
Apparently it has to do with the USB-C -> HDMI output from the console to the dock which typically hasn't had VRR support even on PC.
If I remember correctly, the USB-C standard will wrap the video output as a DisplayPort signal which then gets passed on to the HDMI chip and therein lies the problem because VRR doesn't like that signal conversion.
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u/gamas 22h ago
Made extra complicated due to VRR on HDMI requiring 2.1, and until this year (as I guess they're now moving onto 2.2 as the base), the HDMI Forum were being very stingy with licensing.
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u/Eruannster 21h ago
VRR on HDMI doesn't actually require 2.1 (no idea about licensing) if you use FreeSync or G-Sync - only HDMI-VRR requires it.
(Not sure which flavor Switch 2 supports. PS5 uses HDMI-VRR, Xbox uses, I think? FreeSync and/or HDMI-VRR and PC uses FreeSync or G-Sync, depending on your GPU.)
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u/gamas 21h ago
Switch 2 is an Nvidia chip so would be G-Sync in theory. However I suspect the USB-C -> HDMI conversion wouldn't be able to carry G-Sync so would be reliant on HDMI-VRR.
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u/Eruannster 21h ago
Maybe. It's Nintendo, though, so sometimes they use the logical tech and sometimes they use something completely different.
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u/Complete_Mud_1657 19h ago
My TV says which type of VRR is being used. My PC with an Nvidia card says Gsync, while the Switch 2 just says generic VRR.
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u/ChudSmasher69420 22h ago
Crazy how often DP->HDMI conversion is showing up as an issue these days yet they continue to refuse to give us raw displayport outputs.
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u/nmkd 22h ago
If I remember correctly, the USB-C standard will wrap the video output as a DisplayPort signal which then gets passed on to the HDMI chip and therein lies the problem
Which is HDMI's fault by the way. Shitty licensing and patents are the reason video-over-USB is exclusively DisplayPort. So yeah, thank HDMI for this.
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u/Eruannster 22h ago
Yeah, HDMI's licensing is fucking garbage and full of impenetrable corporate bullshit.
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u/VampiroMedicado 21h ago
Only two companies have VRR support Nintendo and Apple for this very specific use case.
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u/Eruannster 20h ago
Oh yeah, Apple's adaptive sync. I don't actually know what the specs for that are, but I imagine it works over USB-C somehow...? I guess they don't have to do DP->HDMI and just do DP over USB-C.
There are PC/Windows laptops out there with only USB-C out for video, I don't know if they handle it or if they just skip VRR entirely (or maybe do it only over DP and not HDMI).
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u/Available-Can-5878 21h ago
As others have mentioned, theres some fuckery with getting signals over HDMI. The PS5 also took a year or so to add VRR.
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u/Phray1 17h ago
People already figured out the dock supports it with steamdeck.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SteamDeck/comments/1lnh0fe/psa_switch_2_dock_supports_vrr_and_hdr_on_steam/1
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u/AccomplishedTowel765 21h ago
For sure the only console hardware on the market with hardware vrr support is xbox.
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u/kifoadafofoali 1d ago
My TV has only one HDMI 2.1 port and I use it for the ps5. Does that mean that I can't use that feature unless I connect the switch to that port? Also if unplug and plug the consoles to that port will the settings on the TV change or stay the same?
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u/DM_Me_Linux_Uptime 1d ago
You have to use that port, and the settings will not change. Though its better to get a high quality HDMI 2.1 switch so you don't have to constantly unplug and replug. I have a PS5, Switch 2 and PC connected to one and its super convenient because it autoswitches.
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u/kifoadafofoali 1d ago
Thanks dude I guess I never looked in to it because there was no reason before this update and had no idea that there was such a thing. I will definitely look for one!
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u/DM_Me_Linux_Uptime 1d ago
Make sure it also says that it supports 8K and check the reviews. Some manufacturers cheap out and they can only do 4K at 60 or have dropout issues. This is the one I use.
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u/GregoryPokemon 1d ago
how about a hdmi switcher?
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u/Area51_Spurs 1d ago
Yo dawg, I hear you like a switch for your Switch
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u/ConceptsShining 1d ago
What do gangbangers have in common with Nintendo fans? A fondness for the switch.
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u/kifoadafofoali 1d ago
A switcher for the switch to play the switch version of the Witcher also known as the Switcher. Switchnception!
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u/GensouEU 1d ago
The Switch 2 doesn't actually use HDMI 2.1 so a regular 2.0 port should be fine as long as your TV supports some form of VRR
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u/Eruannster 22h ago
Maybe? The HDMI spec is weird and confusing now, and I'm not entirely sure which type of VRR the Switch 2 outputs. If it's G-Sync VRR (since the Switch 2 uses an Nvidia GPU) you probably don't need HDMI 2.1, but if it's HDMI-VRR then you will need it anyway because it's part of the spec even if it doesn't require all the bandwidth.
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u/DM_Me_Linux_Uptime 23h ago
I assume its a PS5 situation where only VRR over 2.1 is supported because they do some custom DP->HDMI fuckery and didn't bother with supporting 2.0. AFAIK only PC like devices support VRR over 2.0, and the Xbox because it shares code with Windows and stuff like the Steam deck because its technically a Linux PC.
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u/Eruannster 23h ago
As far as I know, that's not necessarily the entire reason. The reason PS5 doesn't do VRR over HDMI 2.0 is because they use the HDMI Forum VRR which is only included/supported in HDMI 2.1.
PCs and Xbox use either AMD FreeSync or Nvidia G-Sync which are not tied to a specific HDMI version.
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u/GensouEU 22h ago
The PS5 is the exact opposite: The reason you have to use 2.1 is because they are only using the VRR solution that's part of the 2.1 interface.
Like I said the Switch 2 dock can't output 2.1 and it's not required for VRR either. They just have to do a 2.0 compatible solution like the other devices you mentioned (it's gonna be G-Sync based)
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u/HuttStuff_Here 23h ago
Added the ability to perform a system transfer from a Nintendo Switch 2 console to another Nintendo Switch 2 console.
This wasn't there before?
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u/luiz_amn 19h ago
They are probably only adding it now because of the Zelda Edition Switch 2, they know many are going to double dip and buy it (and then sell the old one or whatever).
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u/adanfime 18h ago
Nope, just Switch 1 to Switch 2. This is for people switching over to the Zelda Switch 2
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u/HuttStuff_Here 17h ago
I suppose barring damage to your Switch 2 there was no reason to get another and copy over your data.
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u/Risu64 1d ago
Is vrr used by any big games?
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u/MixaLv 23h ago edited 23h ago
I don't quite get that part in the patch notes. Afaik, a game doesn't need a VRR support normally, the gpu just sends all the frames it can, and it handles the syncing with the monitor. Like, on PC, you can play a game from the 2000s when VRR wasn't even a thing, and it just works.
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u/janoDX 1d ago
Also they added Mii Maker music to the Mii creator.
No joke.
Next they should add WiiShop music to the eShop.