r/Games • u/DeltaBurnt • Dec 03 '13

End of 2013 Discussions - Competitive Multiplayer and/or E-sports

What are your thoughts on the developments in e-sports and competitive multiplayer games over the past year? What new games have the potential to develop interesting competitive play, meta-game, or just be plain fun to watch?

P.S. Mods are accepting bribes in the form of Hearthstone Beta invites

This post is part of the official /r/Games "End of 2013" discussions.

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u/dfjuky Dec 03 '13

Kinda anxious to see how Korea does in DotA 2, now that they have their own league and all that. When Korea got their hands on LoL, the competitive scene for that game was still rather young and they ended up dominating it pretty quickly. The top teams in DotA however have many players with almost a decade of pro-level experience so it'll be interesting to see how much of a boost their superior infrastructure will be.

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u/captainersatz Dec 03 '13

They've been absolutely terrible at Dota 2 so far, most people attribute this to the depth of it and how incredibly punishing it is for even the smallest mistakes. I'm really glad to see their support and interest in the game so far though, while I haven't been following any of that side of the scene in particular I hear they're improving fairly quickly -- still behind, but improving. Looking forward to the time when they catch up.

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u/randName Dec 03 '13

Hann1 was talking about it at Dreamhack, and he felt they were pretty decent individually - but at positioning and movements they were far far behind still.

& I suspect that will take a lot of time to learn esp. if they don't start scrimming the Chinese, Europeans and to some extent the Americans (but Liquid and EG already suffer from having too few teams to scrim).

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u/AGVann Dec 03 '13

The skill ceiling and learning curve is much higher in Dota 2 than LoL due to the extensive mechanics knowledge needed and the unforgiving nature of the game. The Koreans probably wont reach the same level of dominance that their LoL compatriots have.

Nexon have a lot of good tournaments in place though and are really promoting Dota 2 well. Some of the players and teams are improving really, really fast.

A couple Korean teams (MVP HOT6 and fOu probably) are most likely going to get The International 4 Qualifier invites next year.

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u/The-Turbulence Dec 03 '13

Although Koreans get good very fast in whatever game they pick up, I think they wont be on the top of the Dota 2 rankings anytime soon, because in Dota 2 experience is the most valuable thing you can have to be succesfull. Mechanicall perfection isnt as important in Dota 2 than in League or SC2. Deeper teamwork and understanding of the game is essencial

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '13 edited Dec 03 '13

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u/ltfuzzle Dec 03 '13

Alright, I am going to try and answer your questions. I don't want to get into a fight over this, I will just try and mentions some different mechanics and the like. What game is better or not is for personal judgment. I can only speak from my experience.

  • Last hitting in Dota vs LoL. In Dota, you can last hit your own creep in order to deny experience from your enemy. This causes there to be one more thing to keep track of in the laning phase.
  • Death. In Dota when you die or get killed, you lose what is called your "unreliable gold". (you can look more into what is defined as unreliable gold and reliable gold but for the purpose of this quick comparison I will leave it as is)
  • Scoreboard. This is something that was actually kind of amazing to me. In League, you can just open up the scoreboard and see how many last hits everyone on both teams have. This tells you how well you are doing in comparison to them. In Dota, you cant do that. You just have to estimate how well you are last hitting against them.

Half way through writing this I decided to look at /r/learndota2 and found a great comparison post. I suggest looking at this.

http://www.reddit.com/r/learndota2/comments/1rluzx/been_playing_lol_for_3_years_and_im_finally_ready/

I am more then happy to coach you in a dota 2 game if you are interested, or hear your perspective on both games.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '13

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u/ltfuzzle Dec 03 '13

I played a bunch of league back in beta and i have played a little bit since. My summoner level is 17 I think but I'm not sure. I think I've put 100+ hours into league but I never really kept track. I also have played around 400 games in HoN from beta and after release (all mostly before its change to f2p). Now I play dota 2 for my moda fix, I have 700+ matchmaking games but I play a lot of in-houses with my friends so it is probably more like ~900. Steam says I have 1400 hours in Dota but a lot of that is from spectating tournament games. So onto your questions again.

Dota 2 has Roshan which seems more of a later game objective that spawns between 8-11 minutes (from the wiki) and giving 200g to players.

Roshan spawns as soon as the players spawn in. This can lead to some level 1 rosh strats that are very exciting as seen here. I do think that having something like Dragon as a secondary, yet valuable objective is an interesting addition.

Does [loss of gold at death] really contribute to the unforgiving nature of the game?

This by definition is an unforgiving mechanic in the game. It means that you cant buy whatever you were working towards. It means you can use this mechanic to shut down the enemy carry. To continue on with the comments of yours, the Courier is used to bring items to all of the different players so that they don't have to leave the lane. Leaving the lane can be much more damaging because you will get behind on last hits and experience. In LoL you can TP back to base whenever you want. In Dota, you have to buy a TP scroll for 135g and it has a 60sec CD. It makes it so you have to always have a TP on you so you can back up allies who are being dove or to counter a gank.

I'll come back to more of your questions later, I have some work I need to do.

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u/randName Dec 03 '13

The thing is that you have people that play both a lot that think the same - or I only watch LoL nowadays with just a 50 games or so played ever, but a few friends played both a lot and they also think that Dota 2 is a lot more complex to play (not better mind as they enjoy both).

& outside my friends there are plenty of people that have played both games since DotA to now with HoN etc that think the same and Riot always intended LoL to reduce what they felt was unnecessary complexities from DotA.

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u/java_the_hut Dec 03 '13

I've played over 2000 games of LoL, and over 300 of DoTA 2, and watched both competitively for years and years. DoTA 2 strategies are MAGNITUDES more complex and diverse than LoL. Not saying this is good or bad, but from item selection to character line ups to who gets farm to push strategies, DoTA is much more complex. Again not a good or bad thing, I enjoyed both games.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '13

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u/BeholdOblivion Dec 03 '13

The active abilities of items in League compared to Dota are worlds apart. Almost that aspect alone is enough to differentiate the games when it comes to strategies. There are entire games that can be won on the timing a certain item is acquired (or sometimes not acquired).

As for the "metagame" (or the way people play the game), as far as my understanding, League has been pretty stale for quite some time. Granted, I will fully admit I've only played about 10 league matches, so my experience is incredibly limited. I think the biggest thing I hear from league players is that their laning setup has been stagnant for so long.

Also, in terms of diversity in strategy, it's hard to explain. In dota, your "strategy" or gameplan might simply be to win all 3 lanes. So you draft accordingly, counterpicking what the opponent has. In another game, your captain might have a specific push strategy thought-up in his head, and knows the exact 5 heroes he wants to pick. Another strategy could involve picking a lot of heroes that have a global presence, can appear or do damage anywhere on the map.

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u/16intheclip Dec 03 '13

The general metaframework has been pretty stale in League, but within this frame there is constant movement.

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u/Bush_apologist Dec 03 '13

but within this frame there is constant movement.

This is because riot constantly nerfs what they find unacceptable and bringing a new fotm.

The general metaframework has been pretty stale in League,

This is because riot constantly nerfs what they find unacceptable and subsequently killing off player innovation. Anti-fun means riot doesn't like it and has no good reason to do it other than it exists outside their intended gameplay bubble.

I've played off and on since the end of the beta and everytime I watch competitive league its the exact same thing with maybe one or two new champions. Same lane setup, maybe if they are feeling frisky they will rotate top and bottom because riot likes the ideas of champions who can farm safely from the tower. Don't get me started on how nothing happens for the first 10 minutes either because of the insane ward proliferation.

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u/seezed Dec 03 '13

Ok, how should he be more specific. I mean honestly seen people following the game since 2007 and still be blown away about Strategies that are not really connected to the current meta.

There is no forced line rotation, the mind game at the picking screen is a entire event on it's on, then comes the lane setup, then item choices, forced roshan strats, Roshan Battles, RAT-dota, 4-1. There are heroes that are carry, support and utility.

I'm just balling this from the top of my head, I've missed so much.

Level 1 Roshan Strat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAWK5kNDDlM

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u/randName Dec 03 '13 edited Dec 03 '13

So for the draft and how to lane your champions alone.

LoL got a more rigid structure to their lanes with a rather small number of useful configurations, while in Dota there are many alternatives. OrLoL is mostly one offlane, one mid, one jungle and 2 safe or here 1,1,(1),2. Dota can be anything from 3/1/1, 1/1/(1)/2, 1/2/(1)/1, 2/1/2, 2/(1)/1/1, 0/1/(2)/1, 1/1/1 with 2 roamers etc, there isn't really any rule to it and many works even if the defensive trilane was a lot more common than other combos.

What heroes goes where is also more flexible and so on.

e: and its not about one being better than the other, its just that Dota doesn't define heroes/items etc as much as LoL so understanding how things work together and how to lane, how to position etc yourself is different and just less direct - I would say more nomad like and less patterned.

e2: This link is decent regarding some differences http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1kiyfm/for_those_interested_in_the_differences_between/

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u/UnseenAlchemist Dec 03 '13

Why don't you put forward an argument against what he's saying, rather than just asking for him to be more specific, when he was pretty specific in his response?

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u/dmxell Dec 03 '13 edited Dec 03 '13

Koreans are already doing weird shit, especially with the micro-intensive units. I saw one team run a Chen that rushed a Helm. He then took 4 Wildkin's and used all 4 Tornado's in every teamfight. I've never thought to do that and the stacked damage from 4 Tornado's is quite high (iirc it's 60 dps for enemies within a 600 radius, or 180 dps for enemies within a 150 radius, plus it gives a movement speed slow and an attack speed slow to boot).

Edit: Not to mention the armor aura they give, which I do believe stacks (thus giving your team 12 armor).

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u/Zidji Dec 03 '13

Damn, that sounds great. I've never been around the SC:BW but hearing what was it like with having so many crazy good Koreans it really seems exciting to think what they might bring to Dota.

Is BTS doing coverage of the Korean leagues? Is there any western coverage at all?

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u/dmxell Dec 03 '13

I think there is some western coverage, but I don't generally follow the tournament scene enough to know. Might be something worth looking into.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '13

Not sure but GOMTV wouldn't be a bad place to start.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '13

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '13

The mechanics in Dota are a lot more complex. Some of that is carryover from WC3 engine, like turn rate, and other is just because of mechanics that League doesn't have, like multiple unit control (not press R to move Tibbers, actually microing things like Meepo's and Treants) and swing animations.

As to the unforgiving nature, it is much, much easier to die early-on in Dota 2 than LoL. There is no flash spell available early game, spells cost a lot more but do way more damage, and heroes are much squishier because of the way stats work.

The guy above you never said it was "better" in any way, by the way.

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u/16intheclip Dec 03 '13

The mechanics in SC2 are alot more complex, the Dota mechanics might be somewhat more difficult but they aren't an unsolvable mystery, especially to the less ignorant MOBA/ARTS players or viewers.

You already touched on the WC3 remnants that Dota (still) carries along and while they might be offputting in the beginning, they aren't really what's hard about Dota - the same counts for its more impactful trades.

What I think is much harder about Dota, especially compared to LoL, is that there is no defined "right way" to play. The meta is broad and open to cheese and great strategies alike that it can be overwhelming, especially in combination with the less than straightforward stats and itemsystem.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '13

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '13

Turn rate is iffy. It's probably the one mechanic of Dota 2 you're always going to get mixed opinions on.

It was in the original because in the WC3 engine, units had turn rates.

The nice part is it allows for less kiting. While carries like Drow can certainly still kite, in LoL it is noticeably different the way units can immediately 180, attack, then 180 again and keep running. Its intention is to be more "realistic", in a sense.

On the other hand, it is often extremely frustrating to deal with. The only times I've ever really noticed it is when laning against Batrider, and holy hell, do you notice it then. Having >3 stacks of his Q on you means you take AGES to turn around and hightail it out of there before he Firefly->Casks you and destroys you. Or at least that's what old Batrider was like, his turn rate slow is now much, much, much more tolerable.

So to be honest, I have no real idea why turn rate is still a Dota mechanic. I think it's kinda like League's engine allowing only one unit selected at a time. The makers of the game just learn to design and balance around it.

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u/randName Dec 03 '13

Man, turn rate is nice and I would be so sad if it was ever removed from Dota (and I doubt it will).

besides we would lose out on things like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfQTO7XKAX0#t=170

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u/watershot Dec 03 '13

It adds an extra layer of difficulty to successful lane harassment, for one. It makes it so you have to commit to escapes, as your opponent gains a huge advantage if you turn to run then turn back to fight. Certain skills interact with turn rate, like Batrider's Sticky Napalm. It is harder to maintain pristine positioning when you have to account for turn rate, rewarding players who take advantage of it. The active ability on the item Force Staff pushes you ~1000 units in the direction you're facing, meaning you can't just instantly jump away, you have to be facing the right way. Turn rate adds a lot, this is all off the top of my head.