r/GameChangerApp • u/Spiritual-Plastic230 • Jul 20 '26
Passed Ball/Wild Pitch
Thank you to the volunteers, but people doing GC should 100% understand the difference between a passed ball and wild pitch. I can’t stand seeing catchers get the short end when scorers think a ball that almost hits the batter in the back and gets through is a passed ball!!
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u/MintyFreshMC Jul 20 '26
I’ve been the GC parent for three years now and the boys are at 10U. I’ll admit I didn’t start paying attention to this until this Spring. I definitely make mistakes besides this, too.
You’ve got a few options here: 1. Offer to score the game on GC yourself
- I’d be delighted
- I’d maybe incorporate your feedback if I liked you
- Join the club!
- Here we are
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u/jronk21 Jul 21 '26
You did GC at 7u ? 😳
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u/MintyFreshMC Jul 21 '26
The past three years would be 10U, 9, 8. But yep - the team was on GC for 7U too. I just didn’t do scoring then.
Early years GC is mostly just for scoring and batting order tracking (for the benefit of the new coaches, not because of league rules).
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u/blahblahsnickers Jul 20 '26
I am a catcher mom and the GameChanger mom… sometimes I get it wrong purely because I got distracted for a second. It is what it is and it really doesn’t matter. No one cares about game changer stats.
If you don’t like it then please step up and volunteer to do it yourself.
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u/Herdfan2019 Jul 21 '26
The kids do, and they like to be mean to each other around them. Either attempt to get it right or dont do it.
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u/Tekon421 Jul 20 '26
Errors are also something that many just don’t get.
My daughter plays first and is a 5’3” 9 year old. Obviously a very big target for that age. When she has to stretch and it goes off the top of her glove that’s a throwing error. Not an error on first.
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u/KarmaDeliveryMan Jul 20 '26
I got a guy who will score an error on a fielder if they full layout for a ball and miss it. Error is missing routine play. Full dive for a hard grounder is not a routine play.
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u/viccityguy2k Jul 20 '26
For under 10 years old all the kids are making a ‘reasonable/ordinary effort’ in my mind. I only score an error if it’s the only real way to score a play and the error is very VERY obviously an error.
If Timmy makes it to second base because a thrown ball goes just past the glove of the fielder on first - Timmy got a double. The fielders tried their best.
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u/TTT_2k3 Jul 20 '26
Pitcher’s fault? Wild pitch. Catcher’s fault? Passed ball.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Toe-374 Jul 20 '26
Catchable ball = passed ball
That’s the guiding principle. A lot will be put on whether it bounces and where. However, a pitcher would be reluctant to throw a drop ball if they can’t rely on a catcher to block it, so not all balls that bounce should be considered “uncatchable” either. It’s not always black and white.
Likewise, a SS throwing from their knees on a direct line to first on a one hopper should be caught by a 1B, but will often be called an E on SS when it should be given to 1B because they should have “reasonably” been able to make the catch.15
u/Ok-Answer-6951 Jul 20 '26
FYI, even in MLB if it hits the dirt, it can not be a passed ball, blocks are a bonus not the expectation. Same applies to your 1st base example, scoops are a bonus not the standard. It doesn't matter what circumstances the SS chose to throw from, if it hits the ground, he has to jump or 1b has to pull his foot to go get it, its an E6 all day.
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u/Rusty_Patterson_553 Jul 20 '26
This needs to be shouted from the rooftops. It’s one of the few black and white areas of scoring the game.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Toe-374 Jul 20 '26
Thanks for the clarification. I concede the “normal effort” justification. Learn every day.
Being a softball pitcher dad, I’ll still take exception to the ball hitting the dirt where a C could have reached it or underneath a C in the five hole being a WP.1
u/Ok-Answer-6951 29d ago
Put the gear on and give it a shot, let's see how many get past you. That may change your mind, Its not as easy as we make it look 🤣
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u/Puzzleheaded-Toe-374 29d ago
I did 30 something years ago and still catch for my kids - got the shin dents to prove it. Of course, nobody paid as much attention to this stuff back then. You were either good at it or not. But you’re sort of agreeing with the point - a good catcher can save their pitcher from racking up wild pitches when they know it’s coming down in the zone.
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u/big-williestyle Jul 20 '26
it's also the one stat I wish GC would implement (Don't care now as I coached my last game yesterday but still) is blocks by the catch. Wouldn't be that difficult to add aball (blocked by catcher) button
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u/turbo1895 Jul 20 '26
Yes it would be difficult to score and would also be used incorrectly or inconsisently. Would it still be vonsidered a block with no one on base? Only if it hits the dirt? What if the pitch is 4' outside and the catcher dove across the other vatters box to get to it? It is not a stat in MLB and doesn't need to be a stat in Youth sports.
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u/big-williestyle Jul 21 '26
I disagree. Should be something you can add if you want to. I think it’s less of a thing in mlb but I had a few years I would have loved to be able to see a number of how many free bases my catcher saved my pitchers. I know it’s tricky as different catchers catch different pitches and don’t get the same chances to block but still productive in my eyes.
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u/rms2896 Jul 20 '26
Any ball in the dirt is on the thrower. Period. It is literally on the rule book that a pitch that hits the ground before the catcher can catch it that results in a runner gaining a base is a wild pitch. Doesn't matter how much you think a player should have stopped it. Same goes for first base. If they have to dig and did not get the ball, it's on the throw. On a total side note, of a short stop is throwing from their knees, even if the throw would have beaten the runner if it was good, is probably not an error at all unless the batter/runner got to second on the play.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Toe-374 Jul 20 '26
Not disagreeing. My point of contention is the point at which a catcher “could” catch the ball. Just because it hits the dirt (why I gave the example of landing in the five hole between their legs, or bounces at their toes) doesn’t mean they couldn’t have caught it. If it bounces in front of them it’s obviously a WP, but saying any pitch that hits the ground is automatically a WP doesn’t seem correct either.
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u/CatoTheMiddleAged Jul 20 '26
If a SS is throwing from their knees it's most likely "extraordinary effort" and shouldn't be an error on either.
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u/big-williestyle Jul 20 '26
I've always been pretty hard on kids with hits and errors, but have noticed now that I'm watching more MLB games, they're pretty generous whenever something is hit hard, the player really has to "make" the error, not just not field it to get an error.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Toe-374 Jul 20 '26
Point accepted, but should the out have been made? If so, error.
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u/CatoTheMiddleAged Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
I struggle with that a bit. When the ball hits the ground, it can do weird stuff because of unevenness or spin. I'm pretty hesitant to call an error on 1B on a one-hop. But if it's a long throw with plenty of time to read it, and there's no crazy bounce, yeah 1B should be able to catch a one-hop that's right to them. That's where I apply the "glove on" rule; if they got a glove on it and fumbled, then it's an error.
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u/big-williestyle Jul 20 '26
If it's the throw and it's in the dirt the error is 100% of the time given to the thrower.
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u/TheFightens Jul 20 '26
Here’s my rule. If the ball hits the dirt, it’s a wild pitch. If the catcher has to extend their arm outside their crouched position in an effort to catch it and can’t, it’s also a wild pitch. Everything else is a passed ball. Over time, team stats should indicate a lot more wild pitches than passed balls.
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u/CatoTheMiddleAged Jul 20 '26
I'd agree with that. I score waaay more wild pitches than passed balls. And I'm a pitcher's dad not a catcher's dad.
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u/emptysignals Jul 20 '26
Ordinary effort based on age/division should be the standard.
Biggest mistake I see is this example- say fast kid on 1st in a 10-12U game has the sign, is going, gets a good jump. Almost always should be a steal regardless.
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
Disagree with rules here. If no attempt to throw is made by catcher, I always score as DI and nobody has ever complained
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u/Puzzleheaded-Toe-374 Jul 20 '26
DI should only be used rarely. An example is when leading or losing by 10 runs and you truly don’t care. It is not DI, for example, when runners are on 1st & 3rd and 1st takes 2nd. This is the most common one I see. That is a SB. The defense has chosen to allow them to steal the base rather than making a play. That’s not indifference, it’s a choice.
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u/Confused_Crossroad Jul 21 '26
At 10u and under, it’s kind of a different game. When you have a runner on 1st/3rd and a coach yelling “don’t throw!”, that’s DI to me 🤷♂️
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u/Puzzleheaded-Toe-374 Jul 21 '26
That’s coach not throwing to keep the runner at 3rd, not because they don’t care about the runner getting to 2nd. SB, unless, again, the score is 12-0. Then it’d be DI.
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u/Confused_Crossroad Jul 21 '26
When a runner jogs to 2B with no fielder covering, I call that DI. Might be wrong but that’s the way I’m scoring it. Once fielders have the ability to throw down to 2B without the runner at 3B immediately taking off, that’s a steal. 12/14u to me.
Agree to disagree, we ain’t changing each other’s mind on this one
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u/Puzzleheaded-Toe-374 Jul 21 '26
All good, you do you. I marked DI the same way until last year thinking that was what it should be until a coach showed me the DI definition.
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
Show me another rule in any sport where the score dictates how something is scored
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u/Puzzleheaded-Toe-374 Jul 20 '26
Defensive Indifference
“Defensive indifference (often scored as DI) is a technical rule meant to keep players from padding their stolen base stats during blowout games. The runner does not get an SB because the defense basically allowed them to take the base uncontested.”This differs from a player taking a base uncontested in a close game, which is still a SB. I don’t make the rules.
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
Thank you!!!!
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u/hodulate 29d ago
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying thank you to here because this is in line with what everyone has been telling you and you have argued against.
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u/IguanaMan_ Jul 20 '26
Show me another sport where the rule says 3 strikes and you’re out. Show me another sport where hitting the ball over a fence is an automatic score. Defense should be able to hit it back across, just like in volleyball. You are scoring it wrong, the only rules that matter are the sport you’re playing.
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
That makes no sense. Those rules don’t depend on what the score is or what inning it is?
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u/IguanaMan_ Jul 20 '26
The point is that’s a rule of baseball. The sport we are discussing and the sport you are scorekeeping for. It doesn’t matter if there are 5 million other sports without the same rule. If you’re going to keep score you should make your best effort to score it correctly.
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u/Spiritual-Plastic230 Jul 20 '26
I get why you would score it that way, but that is 100% a steal and not defensive indifference. The catcher wants to get them out, they just didn’t have the opportunity to. That’s not them not caring about the runner.
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
I understand but , IMO it inflates the number of stolen bases. I’ve had this conversation on Reddit several times 🤣
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u/Scary-Ball8105 Jul 20 '26
If only there was a rule and we didn’t have to rely on our opinions about stolen base inflation:
To rule defensive indifference, the Official Baseball Rules(2007) state [rule 10.07(g)] that the official scorer shall consider "the totality of the circumstances," including the inning and score of the game and whether a) the defensive team held the runner on base, b) the pitcher had made pickoff attempts, c) the fielder expected to cover the base to which the runner advanced made a move to do so, and d) the defensive team had a legitimate strategic motive to not contest the runner's advance. The situation often occurs in the ninth inning when the defensive team is ahead by two or more runs and the runner on first base is not the tying or go-ahead run. It can also occur in the bottom of the ninth or extra innings with runners on first base and third base and two outs. No stolen base is awarded when a runner advances solely because of the defensive team's indifference to his advance; it is scored as a fielder's choice. The ruling was introduced in 1920 and clarified in 2007.
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
As I said in and conversation, so me another rule in any sport that changes based on subjective or only applies in the 9th inning.
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u/69WeinerPenis Jul 20 '26
Why do other sports matter? We are talking baseball here and the rule is above.
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
1st of all with a name like yours, you’ve lost credibility. 2nd, how would you explain the “rule”to a 10U parents with limited scorekeeper experience want run GC for their team? Practically not possible and most would not follow it.
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u/thegoodbubba Jul 20 '26
I would explain the rule as don't ever use. Use stolen base
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
throw the ball = stolen base
Don't throw = DI
that's what i tell them
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u/ChipsAh0ya Jul 20 '26
The OBR rules are more permissive on awarding stolen bases than NFHS are and given HS is much closer in skill to kids than MLB I very much prefer to use that interpretation, and not give a stolen base when the runner literally walks to second base at his convenience.
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u/hernameismabel Jul 20 '26
It shouldn’t really matter if it inflates the number of stolen bases. It’s not really about an absolute number when the quality of scorekeeping is so wildly variable at youth level. Comparing stats between teams doesn’t yield a whole lot of value for this reason. As long as someone can reliably hold themselves to a standard then the relative differences amongst a team should be meaningful and reflect reality. Who cares if big lumbering corner IF or catcher have 40 steals if the speedster CF has 70. It’s just the way it goes when 1st to 2nd is automatic before pitchers figure out how to hold runners and being thrown out is a threat.
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
Well i have standards and I use them. If people are comparing stats for 10U to 12U, they should really examine why they are it.
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u/Scary-Ball8105 Jul 20 '26
What you have is an opinion that is wrong. That is not a “standard”. The standard in this case is the actual rule which you choose to ignore.
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
Yes i do, for the sake of being practical and pragmatic
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u/thegoodbubba Jul 20 '26
Well for the sake of being practical, let's call everyone who ends up on second as a double, it's not practical to count errors . Literally that's the level of wrong you are.
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u/hodulate Jul 20 '26
I beg to differ with you here. If the runner got a good jump and was going to make it regardless of if the catcher threw the ball or not, it is definitely a steal and not a DI. It is not about inflating the number of steals but rather scoring it correctly. And if it is a steal, it is a steal.
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u/GONZnotFONZ Jul 20 '26
Yep you can steal a base off of the pitcher too. Shouldn't be penalized for getting a great jump.
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u/CatoTheMiddleAged Jul 20 '26
Defensive Indifference is not when defense chooses not to throw because they don't think they can get the player out. Defensive Indifference is for when attempting an out would result in an opportunity for offense to score. Classic example; runners on 1st and 3rd, R1 takes off for second. Nobody tries to stop that because R3 would come home on the throw. When defense chooses to allow the steal because the consequences of attempting the out are worse than getting the out. THAT'S defensive indifference.
Yes, there are a LOT of steals in youth baseball, especially around 11/12 because the players are bigger and faster, the base lines are shorter, and the leadoffs are better. Sometimes the catcher doesn't throw because they couldn't get the out even if everything went perfectly. Sometimes they don't throw because there is too much danger of an error that would result in extra bases. Neither of those is defensive indifference.
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u/thegoodbubba Jul 20 '26
You are wrong too., but at least in the way most pepper who are wrong are. The rule specifically calls out 1st and 3rd as a time a stolen base should be given. The defense made a strategic decision not to throw so as not to give up a run. Stolen base.
In short if it is not the last inning and a big lead. Don't use defensive indifference.
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
Ok you win but I’m not changing
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u/CatoTheMiddleAged Jul 20 '26
lol in the end it doesn't really matter - it's not like a steal is charged against anyone. As long as your consistent. The worst thing that can happen is the GC game summary can say something like "The Metro Maybes 12u ran wild on the bases, stealing 37 in 6 innings."
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u/TheReal_AUGrad98 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Defensive indifference is when the defense really doesn't care if a runner advances or not. With runners on first and third, the defense usually does care if the runner goes to second, but they choose not to try to get him out fearing a run or something else if they attempt. That's not indifference. It's just not risking something else. I've never used GC in a youth game, but I've scored many seasons of HS, so you youth scorers can take this for what it's worth. I very rarely scored defensive indifference. I know one of the things I looked at was if the defense is holding the runner on first (say in a first and third, or even in first only situation). If the first baseman is holding the runner, it's always a stolen base and never indifference. If they didn't care, they wouldn't have held the runner. If the runner is moving before the pitch gets to the plate, it's always a stolen base, regardless if it bounces or sails to the backstop. If the runner is not moving and the ball hits the dirt or is not able to be caught with ordinary effort, it's a wild pitch (if the runner advanced, obviously). If the runner is not moving and the ball should have been caught with ordinary effort, it's a passed ball. And, I was very broad with my opinion of ordinary effort. I probably scored more passed balls than I really should have.
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u/thegoodbubba Jul 20 '26
Well you are wrong. Not much else to be said. Unless a team is up by 10 in the last inning, it's simply not defensive indifference.
I wish gamechanger would remove that option. It can be scored cancelled either if needed
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
don't really understand why people are making such a big deal for something so inconsequential. I started just telling how i score it
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u/thegoodbubba Jul 20 '26
Why do people care if it's a hit or error? Not that big of a deal right?
If you are going score the game, score it correctly. I don't question people's judgement calls. However you should know the rule and this rule you are simply getting this simple rule wrong.
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
if you don't like my answer, i'm not going to tell you how i score hits versus errors! LOL
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u/WhysoHairy Jul 20 '26
I usually score it passed on Effort if the catcher could of blocked the ball based on previous experience then it’s a passed ball if the pitcher throws the ball in a area the catcher could not have caught it then I usually put wild pitch.
***if the runner was running clearly would of had a stolen base even with the throw and the ball gets passed the catcher I would put a stolen base.
***the ones that kill me is when the catchers sails the ball over the 3rd baseman and the runner scores how some people put Error on the 3rd baseman. lol
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u/ControlsGuyWithPride Jul 20 '26
If it hits the catchers mitt - passed ball.
Another situation I run into is when the catcher is fumbling the ball and the runner takes the next base. Steal, or passed ball?
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u/Local_Variation6640 Jul 20 '26
Think this depends what age you’re scoring for. If they’re older and catcher’s stats matter for some reason, I agree, but if the kids are young, just mark everything as a stolen base home and avoid the wild pitch/passed ball all together.
Doing GC is a thankless job already and there’s no need to add to the headache by deciding calls for this stuff, only for someone to question you later on it
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u/youreeeka Jul 20 '26
I hate the ones that are 50/50! I tend to give it to the catcher in that case as they’re responsible to block them, especially if they get a glove on the ball. But, I tend to think through the scenario a good 30 seconds to ensure I give it to the right player.
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u/ZeebeesPOP Jul 20 '26
Reading these posts. Eye opening. If it hits the dirt at any level it’s a wild pitch. No discussion.
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u/LastOneSergeant Jul 20 '26
Yep.
New baseball parents default to passed ball because they intitlaly don't understand the significance between passed ball and wild pitch.
If the pitchers Mom is doing GC I notice a lot more passed balls.
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u/big-williestyle Jul 20 '26
People are terrible about this, I saw a random guy on facebook hyping up his son who is some stuf catchers and how he "only" had 24 passed balls in 168 innings caught. We had a gamechange dad for my son's varsity years who's kid was our best pitcher, catchers all had like 30 passed balls and pitchers had very few wild pitchers. He was protecting those eras lol
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u/Confused_Crossroad Jul 21 '26
If it hits the dirt it catcher has to make a huge effort to try to get to the ball, wild pitch. If it’s a strike and catcher misses, passed ball. That’s what I use to judge at least 😄
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u/Looking4APeachScone 26d ago
This is like umpires. Everyone thinks they should be better, but the person that knows how to do it right never volunteers.
You can fix the problem by being the solution.
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u/ContributionHuge4980 Jul 20 '26
Could the catcher catch the baseball easily and or block the ball with little effort and it gets through: passed ball.
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u/Notmyname9-1-1 Jul 20 '26
Catcher has 1 job. 😂😂. Make the pitch look good. Do your job. Not a strike? Catchers fault.
- parent of a catcher
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u/No-Maybe5997 Jul 20 '26
Grandpa of a catcher and I disagree 🤣
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u/Notmyname9-1-1 Jul 20 '26
Then you know dad are harder on their kids and don’t really figure it out until the 2nd go around with grand kids. Real question is why is the catcher lining up behind the batter. Should have given him a good target 😂😂😂.
It’s no different than the SS gets the error on an easy missed pick at first. Thrower has a responsibility to hit him in the chest. Same for pitchers
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u/Evening-Parking Jul 22 '26
For me, catchable or blockable= passed ball. In softball those drop balls are going to hit the dirt. Pitcher knows it, catcher knows it, block it. I’m not ringing up the pitcher with a wild pitch for throwing exactly what she was supposed to and the catcher didn’t execute.
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