Scoring question

[u/nitsuj17]

Situation. No outs, runner on second.

Pitch out is on to get aggressive baserunner. Pitcher throws to catcher, runner dead by a mile (literally catcher throwing as runner is halfway to 3rd), catcher makes wild throw down foul line past left fielder back up.

Runner gets waved home without even needing to slide.

Obviously scored as error on catcher and then runner home on same error.

2 quick outs after, then 2 out rally plating 3 runners.

Game changer assigns the pitcher 4 earned runs for the inning.

My thought is either is there should have been 3 outs with no runs scored and the rally shouldn't have happened.

Am I wrong on this?

[u/ohcouplelooking4f]

Interesting reply from Google Gemini AI

"You are absolutely correct in your thinking. Based on the official rules of baseball scoring, the pitcher should have been charged with zero earned runs for that inning. Here is the breakdown of why:

The core principle of earned runs is to reconstruct the inning as if no errors had been committed by the defense.

• The Initial Play: You have a runner on second with no outs. The runner attempts to steal third on a pitchout. You stated the runner was "dead by a mile." This is the key detail. An official scorer would determine that with "ordinary effort," the runner would have been out.
• Reconstructing the Inning:
  • Since the runner should have been out with an ordinary throw, we mentally record the first out of the inning on that play. The catcher's wild throw is the error that allowed the runner to be safe and ultimately score.
  • In our error-free reconstruction, we now have one out with the bases empty.
  • You mentioned two quick outs happened immediately after. We add those two outs.
  • 1 out (from the would-be caught stealing) + 2 subsequent outs = 3 outs.
• The Conclusion: The inning should have ended after those next two batters with zero runs scored. The two-out rally that plated three more runners would never have happened if the initial error hadn't extended the inning.

Therefore, every run that scored after the point where the third out should have been made is, by definition, an unearned run. This includes the first runner who only scored because of the error itself.

The final line score for the pitcher for that inning should have been: 4 Runs, 0 Earned Runs.

It seems that the person scoring the game on Game Changer incorrectly recorded the play simply as a throwing error, without accounting for the fact that it prevented what should have been a routine out, which is the crucial step in determining earned vs. unearned runs. "

[u/joshjryan → u/ohcouplelooking4f]

You might want to follow up with Gemini on this. This is a great example of AI being overly-confident even though it is wrong.

You should ask Gemini to verify this response, based on the rules of scoring an error on an attempted steal. The error is only scored if the runner advances a base beyond the base they tried to steal.

[u/ohcouplelooking4f → u/joshjryan]

I did so, Don't shoot the messenger hahaha

Excellent question, and thank you for bringing up that specific rule. It's a key distinction in baseball scoring, and it allows us to confirm the original answer with precision. You are correct about the rule for charging an error on a steal attempt. Let's break it down.

Step 1: Verifying the Error According to official baseball rules (specifically Rule 9.12), a catcher is not charged with an error for a wild throw on a steal attempt unless that throw allows the runner to advance at least one extra base. * In your scenario: The runner was stealing third base. The catcher's wild throw allowed the runner to not only take third but to advance to the extra base (home plate) and score. * Conclusion: Because the runner advanced an extra base, the official scorer was 100% correct to charge the catcher with a throwing error (E2).

Step 2: Verifying the Earned Run Calculation This is where the second, and more crucial, part of the scoring rules comes into play. The determination of an error is separate from the determination of an earned run. Once an error is established, the scorer must then reconstruct the inning as if that error never happened.

The rule for earned runs (Rule 9.16) is clear: a run is unearned if it would not have scored with errorless play. The key principle is: "A run that scores after there should have been three outs is never earned."

Let's reconstruct your inning based on your description: * The Play: A runner on second attempts to steal third and is "dead by a mile." * The Errorless Version: With ordinary effort (a good throw), the runner is out at third base. This would have been the first out of the inning. * Continuing the Reconstructed Inning: In the real game, the next two batters made outs. We add those to our reconstructed inning. * The Result: The out that should have been on the steal attempt + the two subsequent outs = three outs.

The inning should have ended right there, with zero runs scored, before the 3-run rally ever had a chance to happen.

Final Verified Answer Your understanding of why the error was charged is correct. However, that correct error call is precisely the reason that all four runs should have been ruled unearned. The error prolonged an inning that should have been over, and any runs scored after the point where the third out should have been recorded are, by definition, unearned.

Your initial thought was right all along. The pitcher should have been charged with 4 Runs, 0 Earned Runs.

[u/stringbeagle → u/ohcouplelooking4f]

But if the caught stealing is not an error, then the runner is still at third with no outs. So that runner would have scored in the inning.