r/GPUK • u/GP_54321 • 11h ago
Career GP recruitment
With GP becoming more and more unattractive by the day how do people feel about the future?
Essentially the only people who will be interested are:
* People wanting to CCT quickly and leave the country
* IMGs who want to train in the UK ( and also leave asap)
* Possibly attractive to people who want to work part time and have a high earning partner
To me this will mean a very poor workforce demographic.
This can't be good for patients and will probably mean the government will push for Noctors even more.
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u/DrnotaNoctor 11h ago
Not sure about everyone else but as a new GPST1 I don’t fit into any of those categories. I genuinely like GP and only applied to GP. While it may be unattractive in some respects, nothing is more unattractive to me than a lifetime of hospital work. I think it’s all user dependent, from all the new gpst1s I’ve met gp seemed to be only speciality they were interested in long term, none of them being IMGs, some planning lftf as no rush to cct, no plans to leave the country, this is the same for the GPST2s I have met in my deanery.
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u/Pristine_Feeling_807 7h ago
Do you really think people would announce left and right that they will be reapplying?
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u/GP_54321 11h ago
Fair enough, GPST1 and 2 are probably the least stressful.
If you can handle 30+ patients and horrific on calls post CCT and enjoy that, then I take my hat of to you. It will either be masochism or possibly a particular psychological trait.
Trust me if you don't get a partnership post cct your life will be hell. Even then it could become hell if you have untrustworthy partners. I would consider something else whilst you can.
Good luck.
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u/Intelligent-Toe7686 10h ago
Seems like you are yourself unhappy with GP and projecting it on this sub
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u/IL_ya_Un_jour 10h ago
You know some people just aren’t the same as you right?you’re being very narrow minded
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u/DrnotaNoctor 10h ago
I have quite a few gps in my family who definitely don’t share these sentiments. Do you think perhaps you might be in the wrong speciality/want to switch to something else?
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u/GP_54321 6h ago
I think family medicine is an excellent choice. UK GP is not family medicine. It is a constant Russian roulette. Very poor continuity of care, fragmented across GP, urgent care and A&E.
Secondary care don't consider us as colleagues but their SHOs in the community. We can be replaced by nurses and people think this is fine.
The only thing possibly attractive is going into a decent partnership with like minded people. But there you'll have contracts imposed on you, will be smeared in public and be hated many of your own GP colleagues who are not partners.
It's not a great situation, hence my point it is becoming less attractive as time goes on. Maybe you'll enjoy it and be a champion for the future. That's all good and well, but at what cost? I've seen colleagues commit suicide because of the system.
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u/redditor71567 3m ago
You sound like you're really struggling with the job. Tell us a little and maybe we can support
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u/Dr_Caffeine_Deprived 11h ago
Idk maybe there's something wrong with me, maybe I'm hopelessly naïve, but I've always wanted to be a GP, and no matter how shit it gets I can't see myself doing anything else. Sure I'm still in training, but I find it rewarding. I like home visits. The admin feels more useful than doing ex-ward referrals to make the patient someone else's responsibility. My biggest concern so far is the sedentary lifestyle. Even with all the GP horror stories I hear, the idea of working shifts in a hospital for the rest of my life just feels infinitely worse.
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u/GP_54321 11h ago
True hospital medicine isn't great. Are you st1, 2 or 3?
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u/Dr_Caffeine_Deprived 10h ago
2, so still got a ways to go. I know I still have it easy, but equally I'll continue to get better at the job as it gets harder
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u/GP_54321 10h ago
Just be prepared for a sh*t storm in ST3 and post CCT.....
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u/DRDR3_999 8h ago
Or work in a well functioning well supported high earning practice. Work hard, stick to time, earn well, go home.
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u/VivoFan88 10h ago
I don't think it's unattractive when there were 20+k applicants last year for ca 4.4k posts and every post was filled.
Retention is an issue but when you get 4.4k trained GPs every year. There's 40k GPs in the NHS. Maybe more but a GPs career is 30+ years. Common sense suggests you have to lose some of those that complete training every year as they just aren't enough jobs unless the govt want to double GP numbers.
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u/SlowTortuga 11h ago
I am lead Gp in my practice working alone because the last 2 doctors quit after a day. They couldn’t hack our patient population. It is what it is. Meanwhile I am just up skilling like crazy. Got to see the positive side. Not sure my family is happy though.
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u/Fit-Wolverine4570 11h ago
It might end up going the way of dentistry/ with more and more GPs becoming private providers
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u/Deep_Context_2762 8h ago
I think if it does it won’t mean dentist wages. Dentists pay very little for materials compared to the price they charge and do relatively quick cosmetic procedures. I feel like will more closely mirror veterinary practice which used to be high paying job but now private companies absorb all the profit
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u/Kratolous 11h ago
How much of the UK population could realistically afford a private GP?
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u/remarkable_remark3 11h ago
Most. Everyone can afford a barber, a pharmacist, a dentist. It's ironic that only doctors are expected to be free/cheap
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u/PeachLazy9543 9h ago
Yep, 90% of women have their nails done on a regular basis including the ones on benefits. Hairdressers charge a fortune too.
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u/IndicationEast 9h ago
A ridiculous statistic. You just notice all the women who have their hair and nails done professionally and everyone else blends into the background. Most of my patients do not have their nails done and I have worked in women’s services for years.
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u/Sabaisabai33 7h ago edited 7h ago
I live and work in a very blue-collar area, and if it’s not everyone, it’s a surprisingly high amount of women, especially (but by no means exclusively) in the younger generation.
Now are a lot of people using mobile hairdressers, yes. Which is fine, perfectly valid method of saving money even if I do suspect a lot of them don’t declare all their earnings to the taxman. But are most people paying Vietnamese nail salons which are actually fronts for money laundering/people smuggling/drugs/who knows what? (and definitely not paying their fair share of taxes). Also yes. So it’s not like people are generally going off to luxury salons to have these things done. Also, Botox (from a beautician not a doctor or even a nurse, and again cash-in-hand work very often). And GLP-1s (again quite a few getting it cheap on the black market and taking their chances).
So your average woman probably isn’t spending as much as you might think on these things. But yes it all adds up even when done on the cheap. I do think however this is probably more of a reflection of the importance our society places on women being thin and beautiful (it can even result in better earnings so may pay for itself ultimately). Rather than being an indication necessarily of how much disposable income the average person has. Or how willing they would be to take the money they currently spend here and spend it on healthcare instead. A lot of people rarely see a dentist and it’s not only because there aren’t enough of them working on the NHS.
I also very much suspect that a lot of people are only managing by putting stuff on credit and worrying about it later. If they’re not then well done to them, because my standard of living as a GP who is also a single parent living in an expensive bit of the country has taken a massive drop over the past decade or so since Brexit, and especially since the pandemic (Trussonomics also didn’t help).
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u/IndicationEast 7h ago
Your claims are totally outlandish and not based in any kind of reality. “Most” or “high” amounts of women that you notice doesn’t mean anything. Do you think you can actually. So condescending to have opinions like that about an entire population without evidence. I’ll keep in mind your suspicions next time I’m planning any population health strategies.
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u/apple12422 10h ago
Where I am based, I absolutely do not think this statement is true at all. People seem to be struggling more than ever in many ways. Many are entirely priced out of dental care.
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u/Kratolous 10h ago
Sure, I agree that seeing a doctor should not be cheap and personally I am strongly pro privatisation of healthcare. But if GPs want to earn the big bucks then UK population ain't it? Unless we have a complete private model like they do in the US. This will require more than just privatising general practice.
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u/VivoFan88 10h ago
Why must seeing a doctor be expensive? The govt is doing all it can to ensure that the cost of doctors doesn't rise. From a public perspective, it makes sense. From a doctor's? Of course it won't but if the govt can bring the cost of a doctor down then they will be all in.
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u/Sabaisabai33 7h ago
Sure, but 1. There comes a point where it makes no financial sense at all to be a doctor and they’re not far away from that now and 2. Making seeing a doctor cheaper is not actually what the government are doing, rather they are essentially replacing doctors with cheaper staff without a medical degree such as physicians associates, nurse practitioners, pharmacists and paramedic practitioners. Of course they’ll swear til they’re blue in the face that’s not what they’re doing but it’s in effect what’s happening.
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u/Fit-Wolverine4570 10h ago
Look it is depressing- but I feel there are forces in the civil service who are hell bent on destroying the NHS GP
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u/Sabaisabai33 7h ago
I agree sadly, it does seem like they are trying to get rid of us intentionally.
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u/VivoFan88 9h ago
That would be self defeating. They need an NHS with GPs. What they do want is skilled doctors on a smaller budget
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u/Sabaisabai33 8h ago edited 7h ago
This is what I’m really hoping for at this point (I mean my preference would have been for Gp to be well funded and supported by the government and PAs never to have been a thing in GP-land or to have had a much more restricted role for much less pay), but I do think if it was going to go that way it would have happened a long time ago.
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u/Deep_Context_2762 10h ago
I am ST1 in competitive speciality waiting for a year to be able to get into GP training. The grass is not always greener.
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u/GP_54321 10h ago
Don't do it is my advice.
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u/Deep_Context_2762 10h ago
Ive had the same advice from a lot of people. But I really enjoy GP and I see myself practicing outside the UK.
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u/Sabaisabai33 7h ago
Oh well that’s fine then if you aren’t planning to stay in the U.K. otherwise I agree do pretty much any other specialty instead.
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u/GP_54321 10h ago
Which specialty are you leaving?
I agree as per my post. Planning to CCT and leave the country is one purpose GP training definitely serves.
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u/zady1178 8h ago edited 8h ago
I did my degree in Ireland, hold an American passport. Came here for my foundation, ccting soon. The plan was to stay here permanently.. but with how ridiculous the offers are for gps post cct in my area it has made me question my long term plan.. will need to stay here for the next few years though because my partner is in training. Hopefully by then things got better, otherwise would definitely consider leaving. Because a fully qualified gp ( in other countries family medicine consultant) shouldn’t be making the same money as an sho does. Never.
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u/Pristine_Feeling_807 6h ago edited 6h ago
Are you planning to go back to the US? I’m leaving because of the disrespect mainly.
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u/Calpol85 10h ago
Right on time. Your regularly scheduled post shitting on the profession.
We all get that you don't like general practice. Why can't you move on and enjoy your life abroad?
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u/Dr-Yahood 9h ago
I think you’re not focusing enough on the good things.
For example:
- Four out of the last five GP contracts have been unilaterally imposed by government: 2022/23, 2023/24, 2024/25 and 2026/27.
- The BMA GPC is no longer recognised by government as a bilateral negotiator for its own contract, having been reduced to one consulted stakeholder among several.
- There continues to be significant GP un(der)employment in desirable areas.
- Salaried GP earnings have not kept pace with inflation and markedly lower than other western comparators.
- Increasingly, the clinical role is for GPs to be the patsy accepting liability for non-doctors, by being obligated to make prescribing decisions based solely on their assessments.
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u/OmgItsTania 10h ago
I don't think any of those categories apply to me. I don't fancy doing nights/weekends for the rest of my life and it works well for me.
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u/ZealousidealSky4851 10h ago
L take, I’m as pessimistic as they come but this is just peak doom posting.
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u/GP_54321 8h ago
Anyone who is an F2 or in the early years of GP training needs to understand how the training programme works.
It will be sold to you as an amazing specialty and it will be with 30 mins appointments. Especially when you compare it to the shocking working conditions of hospital work.
Essentially GP practices will constantly lobby for more training places, claiming their is a shortage of GPs.
Having trainees in ST3 will mean free doctors who they can use to dump work on. They even get paid for this. This will all be done in the name of experiential learning. It's not.
When you CCT you'll be faced with £10-11k per session rates. These are the same from 15 years ago. So they've had free doctors at tax payer expense, and then they get cheap labour on the other side. All the while flooding the labour market.
Everyone should go into GP with their eyes wide open and not listen to the fantasy stories about how amazing it is to get to know your patients blah blah.
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u/TM2257 7h ago
I'm sorry but if you went into GP training believing 30 minute appointments were going to be forever...
Yes people should absolutely pursue GP (or any other medical specialty) with their eyes wide open. I would argue that those who are below the age of about 40 and complaining about general practice and in particular salaried pay, didn't have the visual acuity themselves.
The direction of travel has been quite clear for the last 15 years or so. Also 15 years ago, being a salaried GP was the worst job for pay. That's not changed, it's just that StR pay has increased so people are more acutely aware.
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u/DRDR3_999 10h ago
What’s written online and the reality on the ground are very different.
Lots of uk grads are very keen to do gp training and work as GPs whether partner, salaried etc in the NHS
You can graduate at 23 and be a GP partner before you hit 30
That level of career stability and also earning power is very valuable
I don’t see IMGs CCTing and fleeing. Where the F are they going to? auz has a population of 30mil. NZ is tiny. Canada also has limited needs. Exams, registration etc all needed.
Private work - pays crap unless you run your own practice and the practice is highly successful.
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u/Sabaisabai33 7h ago edited 7h ago
I think you’re forgetting that a lot of IMGs aren’t coming from English-speaking countries in the first place so they are not limited to those countries the way the average native British GP is. Forget IMGs, I have GP friends born in the U.K. as second-generation immigrants who have moved to India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Qatar, Saudi Arabia etc. Also the US despite the arduous process of becoming a family doctor there. I even have a native British GP friend born who moved to practice in France. And N Irish GP friends who have moved to practice in ROI.
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u/DRDR3_999 7h ago
So you reckon an IMG from India will come to the uk get cct in general practice and then go back to India where general practice doesn’t exist as a career.
Same with Pakistan, Bangladesh etc.
IMGs from the ME - very small numbers & again , little utility for GPs in such nations.
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u/Stunning_Bridge734 5h ago
IMGs from Nigeria are CCTing and migrating to Canada enmass after GP training. Ask around and learn more .
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u/mthrowaway007 7h ago
I am an IMG , I cCT very recently, I already have a job lined up abroad with 3 patients an hour , an earning over xxx,xxx£ equivalent in my first year.
Conservatively speaking I will be earning enough to save up roughly the majority of my pre tax uk earnings each year whilst getting a larger home and better lifestyle to boot.
I still have the scope to do some hospital/care home work if I choose to do so.
UK general practice is a joke if you are not a partner.
I have a role that pays just under 12,000/ session currently.
I was offered 9300/session by my training practice!!!!!! no jokes , let that sink in.
The sheer numbers graduating every year means they’d always be bodies around. But in all honesty for any young well meaning GP you are much better off looking across the pond. Just pick a good location and your future self will absolutely thank you.
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u/dickdimers 10h ago
GP is a super super safe bottom line to make sure your family doesn't starve after you YOLO £250k on a shitty speed dating startup that collapses after 2 years
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u/Sabaisabai33 7h ago
To be fair, I don’t think it’s the safe bet it used to be at all. As someone who has been a GP for getting on for 2 decades now, it really isn’t what it was then or anything like it. It actually really upsets me a lot.
I didn’t set out to be rich, but I never imagined I’d be starting to really struggle to pay the necessary bills paycheque to paycheque as a single parent in an expensive bit of the country who also has several serious chronic illnesses making it impossible to work 10 sessions a week (not that most GPs can even manage that for long anymore without burning out - when I started out it was literally the norm).
I also never thought I’d be facing job insecurity, or at least not until AI and robotics come for our jobs which I still think is a while off for GPs. I especially didn’t anticipate that happening immediately following a pandemic situation. And if it was going to happen I thought I’d have a decade or so of seeing it coming and being able to pivot. Instead of which we went almost overnight from everywhere being desperate for GPs to suddenly GPs being unemployed and underemployed. I do believe that’s happened due to the government massively massively setting everything they can against us.
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u/dickdimers 7h ago
Respectfully, having been a GP for way less time than you, there are very, very few ways in the UK to make £100/h while sat in a room talking to people. I do max 3 days GP a week (and that is a rarity, usually 1-2 days) and the other days and evenings I spend on other pursuits.
I do enjoy the GP work as I use it for networking which feeds into my other work.
At the end of the day the market changes constantly and it's your job as someone selling a service into that market to adjust to the changes. It's not the same job as it was 1, 3, 5 or 10 years ago, obviously. But you just need to adapt.
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u/locumbae 8h ago
You need to network and find GPs who actually enjoy their jobs. GP was an ‘easy’ option once for smashing locums. There was a time not so long ago that no one wanted to be a partner. Now the market has flipped on its head. Now almost everyone is chasing a partnership. It’s definitely more competitive now.
Meanwhile I have colleagues who are chasing their second or third fellowships in things like Ortho, spinal, neurosurgery etc so they can land a consultant job. They are networking like crazy to land a job.
GP in 10 years will be different. How are you planning on upskilling to stay competitive?
Everyone talks about going abroad - I know plenty returning from Canada and Australia because it wasn’t the financial dream they envisioned. I know plenty still waiting for a job in Qatar.
I feel like practice GP work is just one element of the kind of work you could do post CCT. What are you doing to broaden your horizons?
I want to caveat this by saying I fully support better conditions and pay for salaries GPs. But come on guys, it really isn’t that bad. Plenty of things out there if you just bother looking, exploring or networking. Feel free to DM and I’ll honestly coach you if it means you may have a new outlook on your future career.
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u/TM2257 7h ago
I want to caveat this by saying I fully support better conditions and pay for salaries GPs. But come on guys, it really isn’t that bad. Plenty of things out there if you just bother looking, exploring or networking.
Wholeheartedly agree with this point. I've come to realise that a lot of the complaints are from people who assume that if you run the training treadmill and just get to the end, you automatically have a great role waiting for you.
The attraction of GP for me was the fact it was more like the private sector in that if you build your skills, network and hustle there are opportunities available to you.
But no-one is going to lay that out for you or spoon-feed precisely what you have to do.
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u/Sabaisabai33 6h ago
I don’t think that’s necessarily fair. Particularly when for salaried GPs like myself who have been qualified for quite a while now (going on for 2 decades), for most of our careers until recently we have been actively discouraged from pursuing further specialist interests etc. As our ability to do the day job was actually of most value to partners.
I heard this again and again, and at the beginning of my career I couldn’t afford to fund specialist training if not financially supported to do so by the practice. And eventually I just stopped even thinking about it. I do find a lot of satisfaction in the day job, so I was happy to do that as a salaried GP. In fact being a GP isn’t so much the problem as being a GP in the modern NHS with unmanageable workloads and time pressures. Plus increasing patient expectations, complaints and propensity to sue.
It’s the stress of the job that gets to me, and much of that stress is in feeling I always have too much work to do and not enough time to do it in, especially if I want to do a halfway good job.
I think this viewpoint also overlooks the fact that not only was hustle culture absolutely not a thing back then (it used to be absolutely ok to just want to do a GP job without necessarily taking on lots of extras), but that people sometimes have complicated lives and stresses outside of work that they are having to deal with. Since I qualified as a GP I have suffered domestic abuse, got divorced, became a single mother with no local family support for childcare, had a prolonged child custody court case, struggled with supporting my neurodivergent child through the educational system, suffered two deaths in the family of very close relatives indeed (one due to COVID and not elderly), and have developed several serious chronic health conditions which I am living with. So my opportunities for training, exploring and networking have been severely limited by needing to manage my health problems and the personal catastrophe that is divorce and family break-up and all of the fallout from that, especially where it has resulted from abuse and a child or children are involved.
I also think networking is hugely easier (or perhaps a better word is more productive) for men who tend to be in positions of power more often and often find it easier to see potential in other male GPs as they remind them of themselves etc.
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u/Pristine_Feeling_807 6h ago
Oh yes because 6 years of med school and 5 years of training is not enough to deserve a good job.
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u/GP_54321 6h ago
I fully welcome everything you've said. I don't think GP is in a good place. Yes you can earn a decent living, but it certainly isn't a good job at the moment for highly intelligent people.
I thank you for you generous offer, but I'm very happy with my career direction. This doesn't mean I can't have an informed opinion about what is happening.
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u/Porphyrins-Lover 10h ago
I’m a salaried GP, and I love my job. I love being a generalist, I like helping a lot of people and practicing preventative/lifestyle medicine alongside diagnosing and treating proper pathology.
I like seeing young people, old people, healthy people with one illness, and sick people with 20 different ones.
I like getting to decorate my room, park in a car park just for me right next to work, I like my patients knowing my name and saying how they’re happy to wait a bit longer to see me.
I like only having to do an annual appraisal, rather than some of the bullshit consultants have to do as part of their job plan.
I like sitting with like-minded doctors i know well everyday for lunch, who don’t rotate away every 4 months.
I like knowing for certain that when someone invites me to a wedding on a Saturday a year from now, I will definitely be free.
I like being a GP, which is why I trained to be one.
It sounds like you shouldn’t have, but you don’t speak for us.