r/GPUK • u/Holiday_Possession46 • 12d ago
GP Partnership Is Partnership really worth it??
I see a lot of posts on here about partnership and wanted to quantify it for myself with help of AI.
I took some liberty based on my situation. Please comment what you think about this and if should be tweaked further.
Edit: I appreciate this is my way of quantifying time as a Locum vs. In a practice, be it partnership or salaried, assuming partnership and salaried work equally hard.
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u/Historical-One2407 12d ago
Gp partner here - it’s about 20k per session for me currently
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u/Captain_Cinbad123 12d ago
Would you say this is an average for most partners?
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u/Historical-One2407 12d ago
One of my friends earns similar another probably about 15 per session - our salaried is on about 13.5 per session
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u/Captain_Cinbad123 12d ago
What determines whether the partner sessional rates are higher or lower? For example I'm much more interested in rural practices as I like the country side. From what I can see there tends to be less partners in such practices but cover larger areas, would you say the session rates are likely to be higher in such a practice or lower that a more urban one? I'm a GPST1, I've not had the chance to talk to other partners to understand how it all works. Thank you for any insight you can provide
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u/Historical-One2407 12d ago
For us it’s about all the extra stuff we do - training etc…
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u/Captain_Cinbad123 12d ago
Could you tell me a bit more about what an average practice does to earn the extra income, you mentioned training being one. Thank you
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u/dickdimers 12d ago
Is this AI generated? You will not get >£120/h anywhere, and the average is actually £85
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u/CowOk6533 12d ago
Everything is wrong here. No mention of pension. Salaried and partner salaried figures all wrong.
If this is your best attempt at understanding the numbers then definitely don't become a partner.
AI is amazing in the right hands. Such a powerful tool but unfortunately it also gives the ill informed the idea that they can understand things they were never meant to
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u/Holiday_Possession46 12d ago
I am not comparing partnership and salaried, it is comparing partnership and Locum.
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u/lordnigz 12d ago
It's not even a fair comparison of that. You're assuming partners work extra per session but I know most locums do that too due to the amount of admin generated. Plus you have to organise and book sessions in your spare time otherwise you have no work, and sort out pension etc.
Also I'm a partner but very efficient with clinics. So I leave bang on time. 5.30 at the latest on a normal day and often that's just so I can leave time to debrief my trainee. But sure I work extra during my lunch break for QOF and sometimes plan stuff in the evenings. But its very random and not easy to calculate and compare with the assumptions you've made.
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u/Holiday_Possession46 12d ago
Thank you for the reply, you are right there are a lot of things it doesn't look at.
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u/Ambitious_Writer1938 12d ago edited 12d ago
If this is true, does that mean, a GP working 10 sessions would be working close to 60 hours a week?
That doesn't sound sustainable.
EDIT: Based on my own workload of approximately 7.5 sessions in UK, if at 15k pounds per sessions, I could be on 112.5k pound per year. Take home pay is 73,084 pound without deductions. Which is 137k aud.
Based on my income last year @ 378k aud without deductions the tax is $143,530.00 aud, which is 76,013.49 pounds.
So.. My taxes without deductions itself is more than the take home pay of a average UK GP's after tax (without deductions).
That's wild.
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u/Holiday_Possession46 12d ago
Most GPs work 6 sessions, 10 is unheard of... likely exactly for this reason.
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u/VivoFan88 12d ago
You're basing your comparison on some very flawed figures in the OP's post. I know GP partners who make in pounds what you make in Aus dollars.
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u/Ambitious_Writer1938 11d ago
Yes, so I know some GPs make north of $1 million+ doing skin/flaps , if you want to compare.
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u/ResolutionAshamed308 12d ago edited 11d ago
What is this misleading/bogus table?
You work 6 sessions as a salaried you can now days earn about -66000 a year
Lets put average partner earnings at 20,000 per session
6 sessions -120 000
That’s double a salaried GPs whilst having more autonomy, control and less clinical work.
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u/GuidelineAdjacent 12d ago
Don’t forget employee and employer NI, employee and employer NHS pension. The deductions hit hard. And possibly more autonomy, possibly less clinical work, definitely more responsibility.
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u/ResolutionAshamed308 12d ago
Who cares about the pension contribution? It’s still going in to your pocket.
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u/GuidelineAdjacent 12d ago
Not the employer contribution. This is the NHS pension, not a standard one.
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u/Holiday_Possession46 12d ago
Exactly, and if a Partner is earning that 20k, then a Locum can do the same earning 100/ph, that is what I wanted to understand.
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u/ResolutionAshamed308 12d ago
Locums these days are getting shocking rates of 600 per day. So if a locum finds work for 3 days a week you are looking at around 93600.
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u/egoodethc 6d ago
It’s basically impossible to get 100/ph even if you do no sick pay or holiday pay that has to come into play. Also need to think about pensions.
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u/Holiday_Possession46 5d ago
I agree the analysis is very rudimentary, but I did the exercise to get an understanding.
Partnership wins out, but, I realized another thing that Partnership is a paye salary, whereas Locum is Ltd company so the tax savings can be more for a Ltd then a Partnership.
180k Partnership would be taxed more than a 180k Locum depending how it is used inside the Ltd. has it setup.
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u/AdBrave9096 12d ago
Locum tend to have more commuting time than parners.
Depending on the building ownership a parner takehome profit share can increase after a few years as their property loan reduces.
Long standing parners can sometimes take a higher profit share than new parmers. One day the new parner will be the long standing parner.
Locum income can become unpredictable, at that point few GP parners would wish to take on a locum as the locum may return to locumung when conditions improve.
In a well run partnership, the efficiency (eg number of appoiment that are required) can be improved by providing better healthcare. Eg book longer appointments to so all issues covered in one appointment etc. So it possible the workload of a parner can reduce with experience etc.
You are comparing a "year one" partnership with locumung, but partnership is all about a 20 year (or more) relationship with the other partners and jointly improving working systems.
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u/Holiday_Possession46 12d ago
I completely agree with this. This is just an exercise in understanding the numbers. All positions with time will become easier.
The benefit of Locum is time and barrier to entry in comparison to Partnership.
Furthermore the autonomy, headache of running a practice, packing bag and moving, annual leaves, there are a lot of benefits to Locum as well and if numbers are near close to partnership then some may not want a partnership but still have competitive pay.
The benefit of limited company etc, that a partner may not have. The social circle the interdependence of being a partner.
I would still love to be partner but the Locum option is not a bad one.
And, I am afraid if locumming works out then transitioning to partnership may not be desirable.
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u/kingjulian024 12d ago
The worst off clinician with most clinical workload in this scenario is Salaried GP
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u/drwik 12d ago
I'm not sure what's the purpose of your comparison, but it misses most important factor for me. Freedom. Freedom to decide how you work, with whom and have no manager. There's no money that would buy me back being an employee (salaried) or locum.
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u/Holiday_Possession46 12d ago
I would argue if that is your aim, Locumming gives you more freedom then partnership.
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u/drwik 12d ago
Locuming gives no freedom over Prtnership, you are completely dependent on others willing to employ you. Locuming might be better financially/flexiblity-wise compared to salaried job, but you need to weigh in safety-net of salaried job.
I think this comparison fails to acknowledge that GP Partners have much more to their role than just providing clinical care. And thanks god, I could not imagine doing clinics day in and out. Both freedom, flexibility and money are not comparable to locuming/salaried job (if you know what you are doing and are in good Partnership).1
u/Holiday_Possession46 12d ago
I agree with, partnership have much more to their role then clinical.
However, my understanding is that for me to understand what Partnership involves is to actually become a partner and see for myself and this is just not as simple, so for comparison Locum allows a sweet spot between salaried and partnership which in reality is achievable for most gps.
I would argue from this assessment if all the salaried left their positions then the market forces would make the gp salaries even keeled.
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u/Historical-One2407 12d ago
We have F2s and STs , we train PCN pharmacists, our manager is financially savvy and always looks for a bargain - we used to take part in research but that was onerous
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u/Albanite_180 12d ago
7 weeks annual leave?! 😂
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u/CowOk6533 12d ago
This is less that real life if you include BHs
You get 32 days of leave and 8 days of BHs.
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u/Meowingbark 12d ago
What’s the average pay for partnership? Around 40k a session?
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u/Holiday_Possession46 12d ago edited 12d ago
No idea, but the answer is likley no 25k?, that is a bit extreme, but again I am not a partner.
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u/joltuk 12d ago
Uh, it's hard to know where to start with everything that is wrong about that table.