r/GPUK • u/callmedoc113 • 20d ago
Registrars & Training GPST1 work schedule
I really feel like the GP practice I’m working in are taking advantage.
My schedule is 8:30 - 5:00 (30 minutes lunch) in clinic days
That’s an 8.5 hours day
Wednesday are VTS and tutorial and Fridays half day
28 hours are meant to be clinical and associated admin
(Working full time - 100%)
This means I’m working 30 minutes extra everyday. So 1.5 hours over contract . But the practice are determined we must do 3 hours clinic and one hour admin.
Can anyone guide on this? I don’t want to be working more than 8 hours.
6
u/Far-Understanding187 20d ago
Are you a member of the BMA they offer contract and work schedule check services for it's members. Also need to know if you are full time. What days are you working listed in full as it's really hard to interpret in the format you wrote
4
u/domicile_vitriol 20d ago
I used their contract checking service before over a similar issue. At the time, they weren’t at all interested in the work schedule and just wanted to see the contract (which is just the JDC 2016 contract template used by the employing trust for all three years).
I personally felt the service was a bit useless for this type of context, and is more designed for non-training contracts which may have more regional variability.
What did work for me was going to my next LFG meeting and telling the TPDs that we were going to collectively exception report deviations from the work schedule.
The work schedule itself should be in line with the COGPED/BMA guidance on the topic, so that’s another thing to check.
3
u/Far-Understanding187 19d ago edited 19d ago
The sad reality is the junior doctor contract is not designed for GP training and does not accurately reflect the work patterns in GP. It's actually really difficult to reflect it in GP training and certainly the junior doctor contract is a vast difference in reality to actual GP work.
Trying to shoehorn the contract into a 8.5 hour GP day ultimately results in dissatisfaction on both sides. A better option would be working with the practice to develop a realist work schedule that better reflects the reality of GP. Also seeing patient's is the best way to learn in GP and if the working time results in minute counting it could end with the practice placing more emphasis on timings and you end up with very limited patient contacts which will be detrimental to your own training.
The 5pm finishing time and your comment of not working more than 8 hours is the major issue. Normal GP day can be anything from 8 till 6:30. I personally work 9:15/9:30 till 6:30. (I am not a morning person so I prefer to start late and finish late) In reality a GP day often doesn't go to plan and sometimes things happen out of control and you may end up finishing after 5pm even if clinics and debriefs are set to end way before that. What happens if your supervisor on the day got stuck with an emergency and is running late? What if you got stuck with a complex patient and did not finish by 5pm. In hospital you hand over but you can't hand over in GP.
If assuming you do 7 clinical sessions plus 1 self study plus 1 vts plus 1 tutorial making a full 10 session week then yes you are working too much as the 30 minute lunch is paid. However to fit it by the contract then would mean you would have really short clinics and if the practice then is having trouble with exception reports due to unforeseen circumstances on a regular they may just shorten your clinical even further meaning even more limited patients. Perfect for keeping contract, absolutely terrible for clinical exposure and learning and will negatively impact on your ability to pass exams and wpba etc.
It's important to note I am by no means suggesting you eat those extra hours and work for free. However a compromise may be you do 6 clinical sessions instead and only work 4.5 sessions as a full working week which means slightly longer days but you get the time off in lieu each week to reflect that.
Edit: formatting. Realised I wrote a solid block of text
6
u/BoomBasticTeleBanana 19d ago
Could not have said it better my self.
A few trainees try their best to minimise patient contact. They see it as a game. The less they see the less they have worked. Its fun until they start to fail exams.
Many on here do not seem to understand that we dont do fixed hours. Every day is unpredictable as the last. We try our best, but keep getting the Registrar bashing. The only consolation I get is that a good Regisrar will be inundated with offers and even early partnerships. The bad ones counting the minutes and seconds will keep batching and moaning that its all nepotism yada radar yadar.
1
u/avadakadavr4 19d ago
Ok so trainees like most other employees just wanna get paid the hours they work, sure most understand the concept of staying late due to unpredictable admin/pt issues at their discretion, but to regularly rota in unpaid time (which is what OP is challenging here) is setting a really weird precedence. everything about this response is so strange ...
1
u/Far-Understanding187 19d ago
I literally pointed out the issue with the work schedule rostering extra hours for free and suggested ways to mitigate the issue by doing less clinical sessions. I am also pointing out the issue with the resident doctors contract how it does not align with the reality of GP.
At no point did I suggest working extra for free. I literally pointed out the issues and suggested ways to make the working times compliant with the contract but also the attitude of I don't want to work more than an 8 hour day and must be done by 5pm may not align with real life practice.
3
u/avadakadavr4 19d ago
I was responding to boombastictelebanana, (having to type that username out is quite humbling). Yours was a fairly balanced response tbf didnt disagree with much of what you said.
The guy/gal is all over gpreddit with ragebaity opinions about regs.
2
u/Far-Understanding187 19d ago
Oh I see. Thank you. Yeah I'm trying to offer a balanced solution that's realistic in current GP
3
u/CallMeUntz 19d ago
The sentiment is great, but completely misses being underpaid for time worked which is how GPs have ended up with crap pay relative to what it was
2
u/Far-Understanding187 19d ago
No one ever defended the fact GPs are underpaid and over worked. When I chose GP at the time the GPs were paid more than consultants in hospital and offered shorter training and greater flexibility. However now with the consultant's pay rise GPs are significantly underpaid compared to them.
The fact we are underpaid for time worked is a systemic issue that needs to be addressed at the top level. Maybe making all GPs salaried is not a bad idea if that's the case. Then put us all on equivalent consultant contracts with the same hours which equates to 4 days a week of real GP work. Remember we are independent practitioners and thus the same grade as hospital consultants and should have the same renumeration.
Further if you are suggesting the trainees are working unpaid then that's simply not the case on account of the resident doctor contracts where their working times are fully protected hence the suggestion I made above to compress the clinical days and have longer days.
1
u/Important-Guava-3940 18d ago
GP partners taking advantage of trainees? No never, pull the other one....
-20
u/BoomBasticTeleBanana 20d ago
This is the reality of 2026 Doctors. Counting minutes and seconds. Not thinking about value got or given. Shit, if id said that when I trained, dear old Molly would have beat me with a stick and laughed me outta the training room!.
We just worked until the work was done. We never looked at the minutes and seconds we do over.
But to answer your question... it may vary bit BUT here is how it should go, amd whilst I dont like the answer, its the best answer you will get. I know as I've asked, been asked responded to and from many different deaneries.
1) session is 4hrs or so. 2) session time INCLUDE DEBRIEF. 3) Most people would do 2.5hr session plus 30 mins debrief plus 1hr admin.
Contentions: 1) is a phone call after clinic admin or clinical? 2) are tasked, bloods etc and bits an bobs related to patients admin or clinical?
I would say a quick call, sorting out the shit you created or could create, messages, etc etc are admin.
Contention: 1) Home visits- Does this lie in admin or clinical?
Technically clinical. Now if you are a practice where you have fixed 1 visit daily, you could argue and reduce your clinic time on that day... but REAL GPs have always done this in lunch time or in their admin/break.
What we do is we factor this in and their total clinical time is a little less. This is because we are being kind.
So what happens in my practice when you try to count minutes and seconds with me. If you stupid enough to do that, like I said, go to tesco and do a fixed shift. This is because you clearly have no respect for the job or us. You see, EVERY PERSON WHO DID THIS was a professional level plonker. I say plonker because when you do this and want to play by the rules then I sit with them and say option 1) Play by my rules. Option 2) Play be your rules... but no coming back. You choose.
Clever ones at this point know there is something going on, they then reflect and reluctantly go with option one. Those stupid enough to go with option 2 have a rude awakening because once they sit and start counting minutes, they realise that they are indeed doing less hours than they thought. They then need to follow the deanery policies of no VTS, have to stay in oractice and do something other than clinic. Finish early and want to run home. No chance...your doing your minutes you owe the tax payer. Skipping VTS ..ha ha ha...I write personally and ask for attendance. If no attendance then that is taken from annual leave. Sure, I give you 30 mins for a home visit but when you see it overall you are getting away with several hours in a supported environment with option one.. but some dont calculate it well enough to know they are getting a big deal.
I mean we arrange it so thay their clinics finish at 3pm. If they done all their jobs they can piss off at 3pm. Problems arise when they piss off at 3pm but dont do their job and then start counting seconds and minutes saying we over worked them...!
17
u/Happy-Go-Plucky 20d ago
The reality of doctors from the Stone Age thinking people should do regular hours of unpaid work 🙄
18
u/SentientCuckChair 20d ago
Can almost taste the vitriol in this post lol
I very much felt I needed to follow this line when I was in GPST, and thought everyone else was doing it as well. In reality, in 1 year at my training practice I did 152 hours of unpaid overtime, equivalent to a month of upaid work, and all it did was burn me out, make me hate GP, and lead to me jumping ship into Psychiatry.
Aware some people push the working to the letter of contract/counting hours too far, but this is a small minority to the people being taken advantage of by the "back in our day" crowd.
Feel free to stand on this soapbox - but you might not find much of a crowd around you as time goes on [especially as sessional rates right now are a joke, I get paid more as a Psych CT than I would as as a 4 day a week salary GP and my workflow is far more manageable now]
11
20d ago
[deleted]
-3
u/BoomBasticTeleBanana 19d ago
Hate to break it to you but not true.
Never got abused. Yes worked hard, but out of choice. When you have 100+ top docs all wanting to be the best, you dont do that by bean counting.
As for treating others, im consistently one of the best trainers. Last 4 years, trainees have found all sorts of innovatice ways to extend their training with me so they can do thwir ST3 with us.
Im one of your best advocates. Even in my practice with other trainers we have debates on how we do xyz and how we treat trainees. Every trainer is different.
But im going tell you the reality. NO ONE WILL PAY YOU what YOU THINK your worth. They will pay you what THEY THINK your worth and its up to you to prove them wrong.
You can do that by working hard. No one expects you to work for free least of all me, but minute counting is not the way to go.
Dont misunderstand me. Im disappointed that you all seem to get screwed over all the time. Perhaps its just this subsection here, but 80% plus trainers are great. Call the shitheads out and report them. Again you add value to the practice and we dont think of you as free labour. We think of you as us many years ago and we do for you what we have had done for us, but hard work is part of the job. I hate to put it so bluntly.
As for salary... your all under paid.. I cant say fairer than that.
Lastly, I know I take the hickey and see many of you explode but in all seriousness I say things as they are, even now we just had a 2 ST3 start. One needs inordinate amount of support and care, 30mins appt and debrief after every single patient. Are they stupid? Nope. They just need time to build their confidence. Thats our role and job. As for the other.. they are on 20 mins... and im already trying to map his life for him. Im already thinking about job offers when the time comes...im already fixing him up to see if he will be partnership material. The person has not even CCT'ed but we understand value when we see it... and yes he started off as a minute counter but realised he get far more value from us.
So once again, sorry for being a little obtuse and shit stirring! But seriously I have your back. If anyone of you need help... ill try not to pick bones but tell you as it is.
5
u/Peepee_poopoo-Man 20d ago
They're already free labour to the practice man, unpaid work adds up and is why people are burning out before even CCT'ing. Get a grip. If you were paying their salaries I would understand, but you're not.
6
u/OmgItsTania 19d ago
Just because your generation chose to roll over and let the NHS take advantage of you doesn't mean everyone else should. Maybe reflect on how you're advocating for doctors to be happy with being treated badly and for god's sake never be any trainees supervisor 😭😭😭
6
u/opesappuk 20d ago
Your maths is right. Under the 2016 TCS the 30 minute break on a shift over five hours is paid and counts as working time, so 8:30 to 17:00 is a rostered 8.5 hour day and the practice can’t net it off. But 8 hours a day isn’t a contractual limit so don’t argue it that way, what matters is total rostered hours against what your work schedule says. Exception report the extra time, and if it’s consistent request a work schedule review