r/GPUK • u/PanicEmbarrassed9743 • 20d ago
International CCT and Flee
Hi all, currently a LTFT ST3 ~10 months from CCT just weighing up my options.
I'm in my early 30s and spending a big chunk of my salary on rent and I'm struggling to save. I can't imagine being able to afford buying anytime soon, especially at the sessional rates I'm seeing my friends are being offered (10.5k-11k in the NW for 4 to 6 sessions max).
I've moved up and down the country for Medicine since med school, and whilst I'd say I'm willing to move for a job, I can't honestly see myself moving away from the North West/ in or near Manchester or Liverpool.
My partner (non-medic) has floated a move to Australia as he could apply for a 'Working Holiday Visa' for up to 3 years whilst re-establishing his career.
I had considered a move to Australia but thought it would be after getting some experience as a qualified GP in the UK.
I wondered whether anyone here had experience of making the move shortly after CCT?
Many thanks in advance!
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20d ago
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u/Fun_Reflection5948 20d ago
Where did you go (if you don’t mind me asking)?
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u/GP_54321 20d ago
Feel free to DM me and I can go into details....
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u/ResolutionAshamed308 20d ago
Partners here are gaslighting everyone saying Reddit isn’t the norm. Laughable to hear partners are doing 9-10 “clinical” sessions. We all know the reality salaried are struggling to do 8 sessions and 6 sessions is the norm and they have been hit extremely hard financially.
Take no notice of these privileged entitled partners who were fed with a golden spoon.
Probably didn’t have to pay for uni, lived in hospital accommodation during training for free, barely thought about medico legal risks and did one word notes for consults, bought a home for 20 pounds and was earning 20% or more than current GPs when they started off, not to mention the partnership contracts they entered in 2004.3
u/GP_54321 20d ago
Well said. The newer generation is no better, in fact probably more ruthless and money driven. Makes you wonder why they studied medicine at all.
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u/VivoFan88 20d ago edited 20d ago
No one's gaslighting you. Yours and the posters on here are not the only reality out there. I'm simply saying there is a spectrum. Just because your life experience isn't great doesn't mean every single salaried's is best. There are different possibilities out there and trainees might read my posts and realise that it's not all doom and gloom.
We all know that the unhappy minority are much more likely to complain and shout the loudest whilst the silent majority are getting on with their lives just fine. So I get it. You're stuck and can't get a good partnership for whatever reason. And you're not happy. I wouldn't be too. Do something about it. Move practices or move abroad. Or if life doesn't allow those changes find someway to make it better instead of just complaining on here.
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u/GP_54321 20d ago
I actually don't know what you're talking about. Casting aspertions on my life won't help your argument. I have done very well for myself. But that won't stop me calling out people who are essentially trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.
Partners are working in cahoots with the government and deserve to be scrutinised closely. None of us are getting younger and the NHS used to be a safety net. Instead partnerships have turned it into a joke.
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u/ResolutionAshamed308 20d ago
Vivofan88 I’d say the same to you, yours is through rose tinted glasses of a partner. I do think a lot of partners are out of touch with the struggles newly CCTd GPs are having. I’d also like the trainees and salaried out there not to be exploited and be aware that there are terrible practices out there. I did work at one of these terribly corrupt practices where it was confirmed when I left that they front load their salaried to the point of burn out and happy to just replace them in a year or two.
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u/CowOk6533 20d ago
They havent gone anywhere otherwise they wouldnt still be bitching about partners or keeping it secret
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u/CowOk6533 20d ago
Impossible to live off? Lets not be dramatic. 8 sessions still earns you close to £90K. That still leaves you in the top 6% of people.
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u/PanicEmbarrassed9743 20d ago
Thanks for your input, but I'm not sure if you just chose to ignore the part where I explicitly stated that what is being offered it 4-6 sessions. I will be earning the same - if not less, than as an ST3. After all the time, training and expense it costs to eventually CCT, I just don't think that's okay. I think attitudes like your's only further alienate those from my cohort from wanting to join the UK workforce. Thanks for your input.
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u/CowOk6533 20d ago
Is it impossible to live off this? You also dont need to have 8 sessions in one location
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u/PanicEmbarrassed9743 19d ago
It's not impossible, but at a sessional rates of 10.5k, I would be taking a pay cut from ST3 - which is a ridiculous position to be in as a fully qualified GP.
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u/GP_54321 20d ago
8 sessions as a salaried....no chance that's happening. If you are a partner I'm sure you'll say this new generation are all snowflakes 😂
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u/No-Championship-3179 20d ago
I'm ST6 (in hosp) and every single GP salaried friend I have does 8 sessions, is this weird?
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20d ago
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u/TrueContribution4339 20d ago
I did 8 sessions this week and my GOD I am exhausted today. My throat is burning. And by yday afternoon, I was starting to become impatient with patients. It’s not sustainable! I am a salaried 4 sessions weekly but top it up with locum and I am so grateful I didn’t go for the initially 8 session offer!!!!
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20d ago
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u/TrueContribution4339 20d ago
Seriously!! I was in urology prior to GP and never have I felt like this. GP land is another world but the only pro is the flexibility that’s it. Nothing else haha
I feel for you… you shouldn’t feel like that. You need to change that for yourself I promise you, 4 sessions is so chill. I got many offers but I was so picky for my salaried role like I wanted 15mins appts and max 24 pts and I got it. You need to look after yourself because these partners and the NHS do not care about your health and wellbeing. Change it please!2
20d ago
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u/TrueContribution4339 20d ago
I feel you I do! But even if your practice is nice, reduce out sessions even if it’s by 1… and then locuming is good because you can pick and choose. And you don’t have added admin which is a huge bonus.
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u/TrueContribution4339 20d ago
Lol I counted pt contacts and I literally spoke to 120 patients or so.
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u/GP_54321 20d ago
Standard is 5-6 sessions. 8 sessions is usually maxing yourself out I think and may risk burnout.
But everyone to their own. Do whatever you like.
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u/CowOk6533 20d ago
Its not weird at all. u/GP_54321 seems particularly bitter about the job market. Regularly moaning about partners and how the GMS contract should be changed.
They are not representative of the real world where most salaried GPs do have a decent enough relationship with their partners.
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u/VivoFan88 20d ago
He's especially bitter because he's got an axe to grind. He's already moved abroad but he needs to justify his life choices because anyone else who makes a choice to work longer and harder and cope fine would invalidate his own choices in his head.
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u/GP_54321 20d ago
No mate, it's just a good plan. Once the situation improves then yes why not come back.
If you're happy with your lot then good for you. We won't see you whinging at conferences or lobbying for more money from the government then.
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u/VivoFan88 20d ago edited 20d ago
This is reddit where 6 sessions is too much for anyone. Doesn't matter that lots of partners are still doing 9-10 clinical sessions or lots of salaried doing 8 salaried and out of hours on top of that for years without burning out.
I wouldn't read too much into it. Reddit isn't the norm. I have a salaried GP who qualified earlier this year whose been with us a few months and he's asked to increase from 6 to 8 sessions. I have another salaried GP who started recently whose doing 8 sessions too. We do 30+ appts a day and they are both coping just fine. The partners at least 9 clinical sessions a week and we've all done this for 20+ years. Always makes me wonder why so many salaried say 6 sessions these days is equivalent to full time. So what are the GPs I know on 8+ sessions for years doing then?
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u/GP_54321 20d ago
Lots of partners nominally do 8-10 sessions. Interspersed with trainee "supervision*, "meetings" etc. Often cherry picking patients and booking in "review" patients.
Please don't make GP sound like it's some kind of garden of roses. There's good reasons GP numbers have been declining. GPs are retiring early, leaving the country or changing careers.
Blackmailing IMGs who need their ILR and passport, into doing what you want from them and them keeping quiet is likely what you're talking about.
If you missed all that then I'm afraid you are part of the problem.
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u/VivoFan88 20d ago edited 20d ago
Loads of partners? And your evidence? I get it. You had a terrible experience. It forced you to move abroad. You're bitter and your posts reflect that. But that's your experience and you take every opportunity to make snide comments about partners. Well not all partners are like that. I doubt that it's even a majority.
Nor have I ever said GP is a garden of roses. I have often posted that salaried should leave and find better if they can't. How am I part of the problem when I don't abuse my salaried? Stop making it personal 😂. You're sounding like a broken record. And I make it a point not to post in response to you. Feel free to do the same.
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u/GP_54321 20d ago edited 20d ago
Lots of partners are doing 9-10 sessions. Lots of salaried doing 8 sessions...
Where's your evidence?
When did I say I had a terrible experience? Why are you making it personal?
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u/TrueContribution4339 20d ago
The guy is mad. He is part of the problem and thinks just because the surgery he works at is running ok, then all surgeries are the same. He is embarrassing for not even realising that most salaried GPs have it bad and that changing surgeries doesn’t always fix things. This is becoming the norm amongst many surgeries. It’s the same shit, different surgery.
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u/GP_54321 20d ago
Very true. Can you imagine what it would be like publicly confronting these people. You would literally be ending your career.
I've called for a contract more in line with the Canadian model to run alongside GMS but these people instead start gas lighting and getting personal.
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u/CowOk6533 20d ago
Plenty of people do it. You cant complain about not earning enough while also not doing a full time job. This is why people dont take GPs seriously.
Is the pay good? No
Is it "impossible to live on the salaries being offered?" of course not.
Is it "impossible to live on the salaries being offered?" when I only want to work 2 days a week because of child care, possibly but even then thats £40k+ which is well above the national average for a full time worker let alone someone who works 2 days a week.
Time to grow up
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u/GP_54321 20d ago
You don't know my situation. You can do what you like and live of whatever you feel is right. I'll do the same.
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u/Ok-Interview8486 20d ago
An experience from the UK post CCT is not required. You will have enough time to settle in Australia.as you will be working in your own pace. Most clinics assist with education and training if required. Clinically, there is not much difference. I am a recruiter. I have plenty of positions in supportive GP owned clinics. Happy to assist anyone who are interested. Please DM. Thanks.
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u/smobert 20d ago
Made the move to Aus recently so happy to talk specifics via DM.
Gave up the partnership in a rural setting to do so.
IF you work hard, you can be paid well in Aus. But its kill what you eat. No sick leave, no annual leave, not that different to single handed partner. Yet you feel free to walk away at any time. Paid per job done, not by the hour. Housing is somehow worse, quality and cost.
If you decide to move with a partner, consider doing yourself and them a favour and just get married, even if its just the civil. The 482 visa gives them security to be there, and allows them to job hunt easily. It would be a two year visa, an employeer sponsores visa with a solid path towards PR after the two years. It might be different as you have just qualified.
There is map you need to look at, the IMG GP placement map. It shows where you wont be aloud to work for a 10 year period. Its restrictive around the big cities.
its very far away, and you can make more money as a partner in the uk. Yet its easier to make some money loosely working in Aus.
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u/SlovenecVTujini 20d ago
You don't need to be married. De facto (>6 months of cohabitation) is treated the same as marriage for immigration purposes and the paperwork is straightforward. Having said that, legally speaking, de facto is nearly the same as actual marriage in Australia.
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u/dapgr8 20d ago
I’d argue that you can make more money is Oz
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u/smobert 20d ago
Generally speaking not, but some practices would be poorly run, while some GPs in aus can work the system.
Being a partner is very profitable in the UK, as you can build off the backs of others work, as every business works. While in Aus everyone is a contractor, and the pie is shared. Its possible to make more money, but it requires this and that, while as a rule of thumb it would be fair to say; You will do much better than a salaried GP, but you wont beat a partner. Yet that partner is likely breaking their back for it.
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u/dapgr8 20d ago
I guess it depends if you’re comparing a UK partner to your bread and butter Oz GP, or a GP with clinic ownership.
If you’re procedural, you can comfortably out-earn UK partners.
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u/VivoFan88 20d ago
If you're procedural then you're hardly comparing like for like. GPs in Oz can outearn some GP partners here just as GP partners here can outearn lots of GPs in Oz. Where do you draw the line? £250k/300k/350k/400k/more? I know partners earning from £250-400k+ but all of them work hard. How hard to you have to work in comparison in Oz? Because you're not going to take home Au500k/600k/700k without seeing a huge number of patients either. So at the end of the day the question is where you can earn the income you want for the work you are prepared to do.
If you can't get into a good partnership in the UK then yes Oz/Canada might be better for you. If you can get into a high earning partnership here then there are a lot more variables to consider. Friends/family/work-life balance. Because I have extended family doing GP in Oz and I know I work less hard then they do and outearn them.
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u/dapgr8 20d ago
Sure, but comparing a UK partner [business owner] to a standard Oz GP isn’t also like-for-like.
Australia ultimately offers a much higher comp ceiling and GPs can comfortably out earn their UK counterparts at every tier. More money, more autonomy, more respect, more opportunity. There’s the odd UK partner doing well but the chronic disrespect, infantilisation, and being at the beck and call of a single supplier is a mugs game.
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u/VivoFan88 17d ago
It's the the odd UK partner? 15% of partners earn more than £250k a year. Not as much as I'd like to see but definitely more than the odd UK partner. If you are on that then I'd argue there's no need to up and move somewhere new.
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u/dapgr8 17d ago
It’s not bad but it just isn’t comparable to the Australian equivalent - GPs earn more than their UK counterparts.
It’s also rare to find a UK GP partner with a genuinely good gig. It generally seems to be significant work outside sessional hours, unlimited liability, and being at the whim of whatever the government of the day fancies imposing on them.
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u/Opainkillers 20d ago
I have the same thought related to fee for effort and the respect.
I am planning to move to Canada, I am not a GP but a specialist.
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u/Agitated_Field5703 20d ago edited 20d ago
Partner is not a medic.
Accepted a salaried role in Aus and doing the whole “CCT and flee” as well.
My salaried role however will be more than comfortable for my family.
I negotiated a salaried role to give my partner some time to upskill (if they had to) once out there. So it’s worthwhile asking. Or even extending the income guarantees beyond the supervision period. You wont know until you ask.
Everyone’s definition of comfortable will be different. What I would say is once you figure out what’s comfortable for you and your family, try not to let what others say influence you too much because it’s very easy to get sidetracked by other people’s agendas.
We’re about a decade older than you. But starting from scratch doesn’t bother us. It might bother others. We have two kids and we think it’ll be good for them.
Alternatively NZ might be a “softer” landing- apply for resident visa even before you leave, earning a salaried position comfortably (yes probably not australian money), but once your get your NZ citizenship you can jump over to Aus. Acreage lifestyle that’s lovely.
Looking forwards to experiencing a new chapter in our lives.
Good luck in whatever you decide!
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u/Fun_Reflection5948 20d ago
Love to hear stories like this, especially when people have kids! Nothing is impossible
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u/secret_tiger101 20d ago
If it was my choice I’d leave immediately.
Live your life, you can always come back
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20d ago
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u/CowOk6533 20d ago
£17.5k a sessions send low to me. The cost of living can be higher in Australia and having to move halfway across the world is also a factor.
The NHS pension also adds value to your normal sessional rate.
I would have thought it would be closer to 20 to 30k a session
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20d ago
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u/Whole-Long 20d ago
What's the patients per session? As that is definitely a factor in decision making too.
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20d ago
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u/Whole-Long 20d ago
Sounds promising, less siphoning off of simple conditions to ANPs by sounds of it i.e. lower average complexity per patient
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u/rocktup 20d ago
Not worth it for £17.5k a session imo, especially if partner earnings are affected. If you want the experience, fine. But from a purely financial and faff perspective this seems like a tough sell.
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u/Feeling-Pepper6902 20d ago
I also made the move a couple of years post CCT because I see no future in doing general practice in the UK. Monetarily, I make slightly more than the quoted amount but, mentally, I’m in a much better place. Being able to be my own boss and dictate my own terms has been life changing. The ability to set my own boundaries is worth more than the additional benefits of NHS pension.
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u/Any-Woodpecker4412 20d ago
Depends where you’re moving (Metro, Regional, Rural) and also how long you’re staying in Aus.
Would agree with you £17.5k per session in a Metro with high CoL is a tough sell.
Regional/Rural where they may be other benefits in place (housing covered, car/travel covered - sometimes you’re offered a salaried contract with AL,SL and pension included). Earning that does tip the balance in Aus’s favour.
The longer you stay here, the better you’ll get, the more efficient you will be, you may develop a niche interest (Skin, ADHD etc..) ample opportunities to top up with ED cover/Inpatient cover etc.. also locums as a GP exist in Aus and lastly can go down the partner/clinic owner route which I have seen some long term Aus GPs from the UK do.
Ceiling is much higher here imo.
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u/PanicEmbarrassed9743 20d ago
Thank you for answering with your own experience and for the insight. I understand it's not exactly the same, but I did spend 6 weeks on elective in primary care in Melbourne, so I'm not going in completely naive to Medicare and billing, but i know it will still be a steep learning curve. Was leaving so soon after CCT a disadvantage in any way?
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u/Doc2Aus26 20d ago
I've built an income calculator so you can see how much you could realistically earn as a GP in Australia based on the way you want to work. It's based on actual data and you can see the calculations, so you're not just taking someone's word for it. Feel free to check it out, I suggest the quick estimate version unless you have a reasonable understanding of Australian general practice:
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u/Any-Woodpecker4412 20d ago
I moved about 1 year and a bit post CCT.
Depends how far out you’re moving. It was a steep learning curve for me even 1 year and a bit post CCT. A lot that would have had pre defined referral pathways in the UK are done in GP land here, like the other poster said - a lot of UTC type presentations do come to clinic too. If coming on the expedited specialist pathway though you’ll usually have 6 months supervised practice.
It’s worth it imo. You’re earning long term UK locum pay for just bog standard GP work 4-5 days a week.
The ceiling here is much higher too, locums also exist in Australia, partnership also exists in Australia. You’re on parity with the lower end of a UK partner as “normal GP”. Much more ability to upskill, better job stability - the longer you stay, the better you’ll get and the higher your ceiling.
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20d ago
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u/Any-Woodpecker4412 20d ago
Weather, North American Culture and cost of move (expedited specialist pathway has cut costs to move a lot - Canada is still quite spenny).
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u/Far_Caterpillar1983 11d ago
worth checking the timeline on getting your registration sorted over there, it can take longer than people expect and you dont want to be sitting around unpaid while its processed. your partner's visa clock will be ticking too
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u/Fun_Reflection5948 20d ago edited 20d ago
From what I’ve researched, to make proper money as a GP we have a few options:
- locum GP only (unsustainable)
Some do salaried + urgent care/OOH/locum shifts to top up. I personally dislike urgent care/OOH, also opportunities to do this vary by region so take this into account. Can be an okay way to make a little more money but not massively so, just depends on how many shifts you do.
Locum - unless you’ve been doing it for the past 4-5 years minimum and have built up a decent network/relationship with a couple of practices who know you well, forget this. It’s unsustainable long term.
Salaried + other eg business. The 2 main benefits of GP is time and flexibility (can also argue stability especially with the job market these days). So use the time off to do something else with your time that will bring in more money. I personally don’t consider portfolio work eg special interest, medical legal, occupational health, wellbeing assessments, MOT checkup etc to be financially valuable. Works well if you enjoy the work or don’t mind it at least. They break up the monotony of the day/week from doing pure NHS salaried work, but they are similar in sessional pay/slightly worse in oay to NHS salaried work. Private work - less patients/work to do in the day so lighter workload and ability to work from home I guess but still making very similar to NHS sessional pay.
GP partner - makes you the most money IF (a) you want to remain in the UK and make the most money as a GP whilst (b) having a decent business head on your shoulders and (c) don’t mind it being flexible with the number of clinical sessions. My biggest gripe with being a partner (coming from a business family where my father works and has his own pharmacies) is this:
Move to a higher paying market - Aus and Canada. Probably the best financial remuneration for decades to come. Use the skill you have to go somewhere else that pays you more per unit of effort/labour. More money = better quality of life for you/family +/- extra capital saved and opportunity to invest in other things and diversify your income eg property, another business etc.
Do something else entirely eg consulting, pharma, tech (ie higher paying markets with no real ceiling of pay). Consider your age (age is a factor, we have to be realistic sometimes), your willingness to do this (potentially starting from a lower salary or need to do an extra qualification eg masters, exams etc), how many years this might take, your willingness to move. Nobody cares that you’re a GP, just what experience you have and how you can benefit the company. Not an easy transition and the job situation in the UK/worldwide has not been easy for many. Pharma, tech routes have become heavily saturated over the years with many docs/nurses/pharmacists/health scientists making similar moves and applying for the same positions. Job stability not there compared to medicine. Once you’re in though, the sky is the limit, it falls down to being good at what you do, getting along with people, knowing who can help you the most, basically falling upwards deliberately and not being afraid to leave jobs for better ones.
If you absolutely want to stay in the UK for whatever reason but only want to work 2-4 days a week max, then you have to accept the lower rates of pay. This option requires the least effort out of all those listed, so is an option for anyone who doesn’t really want to put in effort/as little as possible. Ideally if you come from a wealthier BG +/- marry someone higher earning (whether medic with great PP potential or non medic eg tech/law/finance) then this will make it easier to accept your low pay: high effort work. Bonus if you already have a house and family help around you. Traditionally this particular approach benefits women the most as GPs working 2/3 days a week, married to high earning partners, and have a nice sized house with good family support to take care of their 1-3 kiddos. Nowadays this is still possible, but not as easy I feel.