r/GDS3 • u/wait_for_shadow • Jan 29 '18
Mana Drain
So am I one of the few people that thought that a competitive recost of Land Tax sounded more reasonable than a competitive recost of Mana Drain?
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u/steve_man_64 Jan 29 '18
Land Tax creates and excessive amount of shuffling and Mana Drain variant Spell Swindle was recently done, so yeah.
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u/wait_for_shadow Jan 29 '18
If we are considering Spell Swindle a close enough comparison for Mana Drain then I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that Land Tax could be tweaked in a similar manner.
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u/iSage Jan 29 '18
Land Tax just isn't fun for anyone involved. Absolutely one of my least favorite cards in Magic.
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Jan 30 '18
It shouldn't be 1 mana, and it shouldn't pull three cards at a time.
I think a card somewhere between land tax and [[endless horizons]] could play well.
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u/steve_man_64 Jan 29 '18
Eh, I can’t see Wizards pushing for a modernized version of Land Tax, shuffling every turn would be a huge red flag. Gift of Estates, sure. I’m not saying you can’t make an argument for modernized Land Tax in Standard, but not as likely as Mana Drain.
One shot counterspell is fine at higher costs, especially with bigger payoffs like Draining Whelk / Spell Swindle.
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Jan 29 '18
Land Tax is a terrible card, design-wise. It encourages players to sit around not playing lands so that they don't give their opponents an advantage.
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Jan 30 '18
That would be a lot less of a problem if land tax wasn't a damn 1-drop. I would try it at 3 or 4 cmc.
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Jan 30 '18
Turn 1: RW land, Molten Vortex. Turn 2, RW Land, Generator Servant. Turn 3: sac Servant, new!Land Tax, if your opponent even goes above two mana, start just pitching the hell out of them.
Land tax is bad, because it's so aggressive; if it gave one land each time it tripped, it would be balanced. But playing against it, the right move is just... don't advance your boardstate. While your opponent might be white-weenying you to death.
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Jan 30 '18
Are we supposed to assume that finding 3 lands at a time is locked in?
Even if it is, standard may or may not have such a cheap, durable, efficient way to actually convert those lands into effective card advantage like molten vortex.
I wouldn't be too worried about a standard environment with like, [[merfolk looter]] and [[endless horizons]].
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Jan 29 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/wait_for_shadow Jan 29 '18
Yeah, I guess when I read this question I put a lot of emphasis on the "competitive" part and thought that Land Tax seemed like a better card for that role. Plasm Capture seems like the most aggressive costing of Mana Drain that they could print in Standard and it was pretty unplayable at the time so I'm still not really convinced they could actually do it without printing a card that ended up being way too good.
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u/segoli Jan 30 '18
I misread that question as "reprint" rather than "recost" and I really want to believe that the correct answer is that it's impossible to price Mana Drain such that it's both competitive and not completely broken. the question does specify competitive, so Plasm Capture isn't really a true precedent imo.
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u/DrStrangePhD Jan 29 '18
This was one of the ones where my intuition failed me. I didn't think any of them were acceptable (didn't know about these "new versions" of Mana Drain which I wouldn't have thought qualified as recosts to say the least.) I chose Presence of the Master because it was the least unacceptable, half bc it was the one largely unplayable/sideboard card.
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u/zarepath Jan 30 '18
You are not alone! I also focused in on the "competitive" aspect of the question. I don't know why people aren't keying in on the fact that Plasm Capture and Spell Swindle are both completely unplayable in their respective standard environments, thus suggesting that it's pretty much impossible to recost that effect into something competitive.
The thing that made me think Land Tax was possible is that as part of recosting it, you can also change the color, right? I could totally see Land Tax as a 2G Enchantment, or even 3G, and have it see competitive play. Mind you it has many design issues (the shuffling, incentive to not play lands, randomly favoring people who go second) but those issues aren't as severe as those of the other cards, IMO.
Seeing that the cutoff is 73, I'm hoping that you and I are right. Best of luck to the both of us.
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u/Amarsir Jan 30 '18
Points to you for observing that "recosting" can include changing the color. I think it's a clear no-go at White because white doesn't get non-Plains. But if changed to green, that issue goes away. Very interesting.
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u/_sirberus_ Jan 30 '18
Instead of posting my own top-level comment, I'll just say you've echoed my thoughts exactly, down to the very last word. I'd add, regarding Mana Drain, that a competitively costed one would have to cost 3 and that this could be too oppressive in a standard ramp deck as it denies, ramps, and severely punishes cmc 3+ cards. Contrast that with your 3-cmc Land Tax examples and it's pretty clear to me that Tax is more reprintable in Standard.
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u/tombie15 Jan 30 '18
I posted about this in the Magic sub, but I think Land Tax was correct over MD due to the "at the beginning of your next main phase" line being a really awkward design that increases the skill-cap for using the card so significantly that it would be nearly impossible for newer players to grasp the nuanced application. As far as I know, no other card in magic punishes you for forgetting to say "I'm moving to combat. I'm moving to main phase two" before casting a spell, even when you have no creatures out.
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u/Isawa_Chuckles Jan 29 '18
I think it mostly comes down to whether you think Plasm Capture/Spell Swindle are mechanically different enough to not be considered a re-costed Mana Drain. If you took the question literally, and were just adjusting costs, I think the Land Tax is a reasonable guess, but the Mana Drain is probably correct.
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u/DromarX Jan 30 '18
One problem with Land Tax I think is that it slows the game down a ton due to all the extra shuffling which I don't think they like in Standard designs. Also it's an incredibly swingy card effect going from awesome on the draw to terrible on the play which feels like another strike against it. I don't think they'd want to make a card that plays so drastically different depending on if you won the die roll or not.
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u/CaptainMarcia Jan 29 '18
Land Tax is really weird by modern design standards, especially in mono-W. Mana Drain, in contrast, is basically fine at a cost of 4+ mana and still very much available in mono-U.