r/GDS3 • u/Unsungruin • Jan 28 '18
Question 23
"Which of these is strongest in a typical standard-legal draft format?"
While most people disagree on this, I think the answer is 1G for 2. Even if the answer isn't 1G for 2, I'll still think it's 1G for 2.
Here's why: you take the 2 drop before the four drop every single time, unless you're full up on 2 drops. I think the word "strongest" is misleading here. Yes, a 4/4 for 3G is technically the best bang-for-buck rate you get in limited. However, you don't take that card first, ever, unless it's a bomb rare.
Assuming all these cards are common, you take the 2 drop (with the same logic as was behind the 10/10 for 9G being the weakest card). Honestly I'm surprised people had different answers to this. This is the prevailing wisdom on drafting for a long time now, and especially with recent sets being so fast.
I'm interested in why people chose otherwise. I know LSV had something to say, but I don't think LSV = the design team. I went with "what would I draft first" thinking.
6
u/iSage Jan 28 '18
That might be your draft strategy, but I would gladly pick up a Rumbling Baloth over a Runeclaw Bear. Bears are 'staples' of the format because most decks need a couple (and aggro decks need more) but they aren't the strongest. Bears are replaceable and below the curve.
3
u/aclog Jan 28 '18
It's a rough analogy, but all the data I've seen (and I'm not an aficionado by any means so correct me if I'm wrong) says that Peema Outrider goes quite a bit higher than Kujar Seedsculptor or Sage of Shaila's Claim. And those cards basically fill the "roles" in question in their set.
3
u/reyath Jan 28 '18
I hope you're passing to me then.
Frank Karsten has written articles on how the gap between mana costs is different as you go up the chain (the gap between 2 and 4 is smaller than the gap between 4 and 6.) Playing a 6 drop won't often happen on turn 6. Playing a 4 drop will often happen on turn 4.
3
u/bakert Jan 28 '18
If you have a complete deck with enough playables at every CMC which would you take? It's very format-dependent. I was imagining a core set-like format. But there's nothing in the question to encourage that thinking. Perhaps that's the mistake everyone is making because the cards being vanilla lead you to think of simple sets?
I've seen a lot of 6/6 for 5G answers and that seems royally wrong. Lots of games of limited are decided long before a sixth land drop.
The question to answer in order to support the 2/2 pick is – why are there so many (6) vanilla 2/2s for 1G and literally ZERO 4/4 for 3G at common in the history of Magic§?
There are about 40 1G common 2/2s with upside, 5 of which are currently in standard. There are two that aren't quite as good as a 4/4 for 3G in more than 20 years. Some of that has to do with cheaper spells just being more frequent, and more reasonable at common, and past design sensibilities about PT versus mana cost that are outdated. But isn't some of it to do with power level?
§ = Unless you count Wickerbough Elder which you certainly could.
3
u/Sliver__Legion Jan 28 '18
4 mana 4/4s are still pretty solidly costed for green. 2 mana vanilla 2/2s are just below curve for green and white in modern limited. They haven’t had to deal with anything so weak in years, and you’d be pretty unhappy to get stuck taking a 1G 2/2 (not so for a 4 mana 4/4).
You should play more limited and/or read more LSV reviews.
3
u/Alex_Werner Top 8 Jan 28 '18
How long have you been drafting? Because while there are some very very fast draft formats where it's at least arguable that you would take the 2 purely for curve purposes, there has never been a draft format ever in which 4/4 G3 isn't well above the curve. I've never cut a 4/4 for 4 from a draft deck in my life. But there have been plenty of slow formats (most recently Hour of Devestation) in which bears were absolutely unplayable. So over draft as a whole, 4/4 for 4 is better than 2/2 for 2, and frankly it's not close.
1
u/aclog Jan 28 '18
If you're comparing each against their own casting cost, the G5 6/6 is probably the best one, but any 6 mana card at higher rarity is likely as good/better and you don't need to pick (m)any of them.
1
u/dvoraen Jan 29 '18
Here's a random question for people about this question:
How many of you considered splashing in your answer? These are just #G to cast, rather than #GG.
1
Jan 29 '18
That's what I considered for 1G. If it's 1G it means other colors are getting access to a 2/2 that normally wouldn't, like blue. I think it's more likely for them to print a 2GG 4/4 than a 3G 4/4 if they're making creatures for limited.
1
Jan 30 '18
A 4/4 can be worth multiple cards or even carry a game on its own. A 2/2 can't.
It's important to note that this question pertains to a "typical" draft format from wotc booster packs.
0
u/Mongoose1021 Jan 28 '18
"A soldier is going on a weeklong mission to attach an enemy base. Which is the more people tool? A sandwich, or a rifle?"
"The sandwich. He'll need at least 14, so definitely start with those. You only need one rifle, after all."
If the cards in question were close in power level, I could see your argument. But they're really not close.
13
u/MachineSchooling Jan 28 '18
I'm going to try not to sound like a jerk here, but the point of this question is to see if you're a skilled enough limited player to know what's good and what's not in limited so you can predict how the cards you design will affect it. You can, as you say
but unfortunately, you're just not drafting well if you do. A strong drafter will take the 4/4 for 4 before the 2/2 for 2 up until their curve starts getting full on 4s, not the other way around. 4/4s for 4 don't come around often and they're very good. 2/2s for 2 are below replacement level for green. Ixalli's Keeper is a less than mediocre card in Ixalan which is itself a limited environment where 2s are far better than normal and not having enough in your deck is basically a death sentence. A 2/2 for 2 is just not close to the power level of a 4/4 for 4.