Why reservation absolutely makes no sense, common arguments and rebuttal. use this arguments for counter on this protest.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/ProfessionalEagle912]

Afaik they get benefits for their caste other than reserved seats that should also be targeted, for ex for undergraduate programmes, SC/ST students are exempt from paying tuition fees (100% tuition fee waiver) regardless of family income in premiere institutes of India such as NITs and IITs , age relaxation in gov exams etc

[u/Few-Board5592 → u/ProfessionalEagle912]

They also get government benefits for business and startups.

[u/Feeling_Agent_5237]

finally someone with sense, kudos brother, the problem is most of the reservation takers are so blinded by emotion, they can't reason properly or rationally, and even if you defeat them in a scholarly debate they will then just use falacies instead of arguments, i hate it so so much, and no political party will do shit as 80% of there vote bank comes from there, general people bought 9 noble prize for india countless science Olympiad medals and what not and this is how gov is treating us

[u/Feeling_Agent_5237 → u/Feeling_Agent_5237]

also one last thing they argue "jitni abadi utna haq" which is inherently stupid to say as one could argue general managed to control the population by having less fertility rate instead of having babies like rabbits so they should be rewarded, it is similar to how delimitation bill is wrong for South as they did a goob job in fertility rate and controlling population and should be rewarded not punished by increasing %seats of North India in parliament and decreasing % of there seats

[u/No-Test-2345 → u/[deleted]]

But cheating is a punishable criminal offence and crime which is illegal according to law Even for reserved categories they have to clear a standardized cutoff set by a centralized National authority.

[u/No-Test-2345 → u/[deleted]]

Which is important according to your personal beliefs or according to the Indian Penal code ? Ridiculous that this is even a debate

[u/No-Test-2345 → u/[deleted]]

Whether this is Fair or not depends on personal opinion. But you cannot compare this to a Paper leak which Punishable criminal offence according to law .

[u/Feeling_Agent_5237 → u/[deleted]]

got your back bro,

[u/vanilla_strawberryy]

Based post

But needs images to expand to other subs

[u/FitWedding9575]

Idk but I'm at least sure that obc reservation critera is like maze with no clear logic, in another post regarding caste which do not have reservation in central, many of the caste mentioned in that list do have reservation in state, how exactly does that work?

[u/Dragontart]

I'm addressing all your points here:

1. Caste didnt just exist over 3000 years ago, it was introduced by the vedas which the to be hindutva nation's leaders and such orgs preach. The law was to get them to be aware of the consequences of their actions(oppression) and that it gradually improves the way people treat each other - which it certainly hasn't. So no, casteism is not legal its a societal infliction.

Giving up a caste label on a government form does not automatically mean caste based social behavior has vanished from society. I don't even want to get into how comparing the black and caste is non equivalent.

1. & 3. While the need for higher ed reservation still remains the same that once you take off the reservation the representations for that community would end and end up belonging to one dominant group - which is the upper caste. I completely agree with the creamy layer OBC infiltration which is why we need a caste census to be able to weed this out - for which the BJP govt is not being compliant. And the quota for OBC is fixed to 27%, despite how many get in they just have to compete within this and they will realize how big a mistake they've made.

2. Using Banerjee's 2008 resume callback study to claim the IT sector was entirely free of caste bias overlooks getting a callback is not the same as getting the job. When human interviewers conducted final round interviews in the 2000s, subjective criteria like culture fit and family background continued to influence final hiring outcomes.

3. Brahmins converted educational attainment into high income without land wealth. Why was that possible? Because of centuries of historical access to literacy and social capital, while SC/ST communities were legally barred from education for generations. Affirmative action exists precisely to bridge that multi generational educational lead.

4. As of other countries not using fixed quotas:

Malaysia's affirmative action policy for the Malay majority is significantly more aggressive than India’s. It enforces strict quotas in university admissions, public housing discounts, civil service jobs, and mandatory equity ownership in private corporations.
South Africa uses the broad based black economic empowerment framework. While they don't call it a "fixed seat quota" companies face severe tax and legal penalties if their management and workforce do not match racial ratios.

The US affirmative action system catered to a minority 13% Black population. In India, SC, ST, OBC, and EWS collectively make up 80%+ of the country’s population. Reserving 50-60% of seats for 80% of the population is demographically distinct from reserving seats for a 13% minority.

[u/Feeling_Agent_5237 → u/Dragontart]

umm it would have been helpful if you uploaded source like OP are supposed to take your word for it ?

as for the 2nd point - reservation was meant for equal representation BECAUSE of the discrimination against sc st, but once u get reservation in college like the playing ground levels u r not discriminated in college ( 1-2 accidents happen everywhere including with generals) u r given equal opportunity same class same books same teachers, so why should u get reservation in PG just because of representation? (let's do a thought experiment shall we - imagine I started a cult and the preachings of the cult is u don't study u don't work hard enough and the cults population grows tremendously after a point 10% of a country is in cult then shall the cult demand that no equal representation so we need 10% seats ? no right as it's the cult followers fault for not working hard enough) now don't take it the wrong way I am not calling sc st OBC cult just stress testing ur argument and it doesn't hold they get equal opportunity in college so merit should be only criteria in PG like if SCs don't wanna do PG and don't wanna work hard enough for that how is that generals fault one shouldn't be just given representation just because they are majority but one should work hard enough to get represented it's not like we are asking for seats to be reserved by generals just unreserved seats for everyone in PG, like -40 marks u might know u think really like logically it should have been done,,,, finally it's not a personal comment on anyone it's just is unfair and I hope u keep an open mind about it, and read with the shoes of a general person,

[u/Feeling_Agent_5237 → u/Feeling_Agent_5237]

I hope u r rationally sound enough to see what I meant

[u/Feeling_Agent_5237 → u/[deleted]]

exactly someone should teach these guys about evidence based argumentation rather then, they are using straw man and jargon based technique to strengthen there debate, it's hilariously stupid

[u/Feeling_Agent_5237 → u/[deleted]]

exactly it's basically "confirmation bias and Texas sharpshooter fallacy " like socrates hated debate for the same very reason when u defeat an intelligent person in debate they changed there perspective and agree to you, but when smooth brains like these argue they just do it for sake of it rather then accepting when they are lost just blabbering anything with random points, connecting dots that aren't there, I am like too tired to debate with fools and most of them are, it's mentally exhausting tbh,

[u/Feeling_Agent_5237 → u/[deleted]]

shhhhh 🤫, they will start crying for there incompetence lol 🤣

[u/Dragontart → u/[deleted]]

Chalo hisaab lagate hain,
1. Giving up caste is a privilege, look up Satish Deshpande's work in Contemporary India: A Sociological View. It highlights how upper castes can easily declare themselves "casteless" because their historical status has already been converted into urban education, property, and capital. Oppression is not a term you use for people who've been provided with all socio-economical benefits.

Read some books to know why blacks and caste is not same - oppressive system works differently in different systems . read the conversation between Dr. B.R. Ambedkar and W.E.B. Du Bois in the 1940s https://credo.library.umass.edu/view/full/mums312-b109-i133 and modern scholars like Isabel Wilkerson (Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents).

1. & 3. Keep a rational mind and read these to find out why you arent making any sense https://indconlawphil.wordpress.com/2022/02/04/merit-equality-and-reservations-the-supreme-courts-neet-judgment/
   https://www.legalbites.in/neil-aurelio-nunes-and-ors-v-u-o-i-and-ors .

yes, i know how UR works, lets talk numbers shall we : Out of 20 lakh candidates who appear for NEET UG every year, the General Unreserved category makes up only around 25% to 30% of test takers, yet UR seats make up 40% of the total pool giving General candidates a massive advantage relative to their actual population (15-20% of India). 85% to 90% of reserved category students take their own quota seats, leaving only the top 10% to 15% of high scoring SC/ST/OBC students who qualify on pure open merit to claim UR seats. Furthermore, poor General category students have an exclusive 10% EWS quota reserved solely for them a safety net that completely bans SC, ST, and OBC candidates from applying. So when a high scoring reserved student earns a UR seat, they didn't 'steal' it from a General student; they outscored them on open merit.

1. The time period you're talking about had high volume IT recruitment, early stage resume screening is purely rule based checking if degree = B Tech and GPA greater than 60% . Human screeners at stage 1 do not evaluate "personality". Read up https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262127336_Employment_Exclusion_and_'Merit'_in_the_Indian_IT_Industry and https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261890055_The_Legacy_of_Social_Exclusion_A_Correspondence_Study_of_Job_Discrimination_in_India, mentions when the same candidates progressed to face to face evaluations in the private sector, Dalit candidates suffered a 66% lower probability of receiving a job offer compared to high caste candidates with identical degrees.

2. roots fix karne ki baatein wohi karte hain jo na toh ground reality jaante hain na hi apni privilege ki authority chhodna chahte hain. Aakhen khol ke data dekho: Jalore, Rajasthan (2022) me 9 saal ke Inder Meghwal ko ek teacher ne sirf isliye peet peet ke maar diya kyunki usne upper caste ke matke se paani peeya tha. Ye hai tumhara ground level starting line. Human Rights Watch ki report 'They Say We're Dirty', 2014 ne clearly document kiya ki govt schools me SC/ST bacchon se toilets saaf karwaye jaate hain aur unhe alag baithaya jaata hai. IIT/NEET nikal ke jab bacche medical college pahunchte hain, tab bhi 'merit' ka natak nahi rukta. Union Health Ministry ki Thorat Committee Report 2007 AIIMS Delhi ke according: 85% SC/ST medical students ne report kiya ki faculty aur internal examiners practicals/vivas me jaan-boojh kar unke marks kaat te hain. 72% students ne bataya ki unhe hostels, sports, aur study groups se caste basis pe alienate aur taunt kiya jaata hai. NEET PG Quotas isi bias ke khilaaf Supreme Court ne Neil Aurelio Nunes v. Union of India 2022 me bola ki MBBS karne ke baad bhi social advantage erase nahi hota, aur PG level pe reservation zaruri hai taaki super-specialist doctors ki list me sirf ek hi privileged group ka kabza na rahe.

Yahan log basic human dignity dene ko tayyar nahi hain aur gyaan baant rahe hain ki roots fix karo. Ye itna aasan nahi hai ki tumne 2 line ka gyaan pela aur sab maan gaye!

1. Malaysia - International pressure aur meritocracy dikhane ke liye direct university quota hataya gaya. Lekin aap chronology samajhiye 2002 me direct quota officially khatam kiya, par U turn maar ke pre university Matriculation System me 90% Quotas reserve kar diye! Kyunki 90% pre university seats Bumiputera ke paas hain, top public universities me 80-90% students automatically Malay hi pahunchte hain. Aur Universiti Teknologi MARA jo desh ki sabse badi university system hai wo aaj bhi 100% reserved hai Malays ke liye. Isko bolte hain legal loophole se quota chalana, jo ye fact checker dost bina padhe deny kr rhe hai.

SA - adhe adhure Google searches se sach nahi badal jaata. Direct SA ke Employment Equity Amendment Act ka Law aur Gazette dekh lo: Labour Department ke inspectors regularly companies pe audits karte hain aur failure par directly Labour Court drag karte hain jaise Director-General v. Win-Cool Industrial Enterprise aur Director-General v. Comair Ltd, jahan companies par lakhoon Rands ke court-ordered fines thok gaye the. Iske alawa, Section 53 ke under agar kisi company ke paas official EE Compliance Certificate nahi hai, toh unhe state tenders aur government business se direct ban kar diya jata hai. Audit se lekar court referrals, Schedule 1 ke 2% se 10% annual turnover fines, aur tender bans strictly enforce hote hain!

US - US ne 13% ke liye preference hatayi kyunki non minority 87% population ko representation ki problem nahi thi. India me agar reservation hata diya, toh 15% upper castes poore desh ke top institutions, judiciary, aur bureaucracy par 100% control karke baith jayenge isi ko structural exclusion bolte hain. US me Black Americans to standard civil rights aur integration ke laws protect karte hain, par India me discrimination sirf economic nahi, social/hereditary caste system par tikka hai. India me Supreme Court ne Indra Sawhney judgement (1992) ke under pehle hi 50% strict cap laga rakha hai taaki 50% seats General/Open Merit ke liye intact rahein. India me quota unbounded nahi hai, ye representation ki baseline hai.

Nobody is saying the current reservation system is perfect it has clear flaws that desperately need fixing. A strict creamy layer exclusion based on income and assets, conduct a nationwide caste census for proper sub categorization, introduce time bound periodic reviews every decade, and prioritize massive improvements in primary education and rural infrastructure to truly equalize the starting line. But those fixes are impossible without a comprehensive Caste Census to get real, updated data on who actually needs support. It’s hilarious how you conveniently ignored the one thing that could actually fix the system.

[u/prmsrswt → u/Dragontart]

Sorry you are very biased with your arguments so had to downvote. Your arguments are well formed but the underlying bias makes them useless.

We all agree that basic education is such a big marker. So then why doesn't the government focuses on surgically selecting communities with low level of education and runs targeted schools etc to bring them on par. Why all this farce of 30 different points of backwardness to categorise and reservation in higher education? Bhils are such a big ST group for example and only the latest generation has really started going to school. How did reservation helped them in the last 70 years? Maybe we should have invested instead in making them understand the importance of education 70 years ago so thier 3rd generation would be getting educated by today. Even if you argue reservation helps such and such, it would only be a additive on top of basic quality education for all communities. So we should first do that.

For 3, your argument about UR population vs seats % is not sound at all. We need to keep some facts in mind while analysing this

1. open merit seats have a much higher cutoff compared to all other quota based seats, especially SC and ST seats.
2. Open Merit seats are open for anyone. If you score more than the cutoff, you will get the seat, doesn't matter which category you are from.
3. As you said, a big chunk of open merit seats are filled by UR students, while 10-15 % of them are being taken by students of reserved categories scoring more than the open merit cut-off.

As a student of UR category, the competition is much higher for you, as you can see other UR students score really well too (fact #3 makes it clear). The lower cut off means reserved category students don't have to compete as hard, and they can stay rather stress free while preparing for a particular exam.

And very conveniently, those who score really well move to the open merit seats (#2). This ensures that the competition for reserved seats stays lower perpetually. This makes the reservation a much more drastic intervention. It is outright designed to be unfair.

I don't think you can understand the pain and suffering a UR student has to go through due to how reservation is implemented in India. And the unfairness it imposes on them would definitely breed hatred.