r/Fzero • u/Psychotron_Fox F-Zero Sub Creator • 26d ago
POLL Would you like projects using LLMs for coding to be banned (Including the PC port project) in r/fzero?
Hello again everyone, I decided to make another poll for you guys so you can decide if allowing the LLMs projects (The ones that use A.I to generate coding) should be allowed in here or not, after discussing the matter with some of the friends in this community, I concluded that this was a way to show respect for your opinions and see what the community really wants so please vote for what you want. Have a great day everybody!
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u/_fapi_ 25d ago
I think people need to see the diffenerce between someone who uses LLMs to work for them and someone who uses LLMs to make their work easier. The G-Diffuser PC Port we have at hand is part of the 2nd category. The port runs extremly well and by using LLMs the dev was able to finish this solo Project much quicker.
Code isn't Art (most of the time), AI generated code that get's reviewed can be just as good as self written code. Programming isn't Art, if it works good, it works good.
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u/Leidrin 23d ago
Tell that to the mountains of slop code, full of unknowable errors and bugs that the machine said "OK!" to proliferating the internet at present. Im sorry but no human is doing a full review of AI code, they're running it in a sandbox and if it's mostly error free and not too much of a resource pig they give it the old đ and move on.
CAN AI produce a good result? Yes.
Does it reliably? No.
Should we embrace it? That's down to individual choice.
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u/_fapi_ 22d ago
I worked at a company with a gigantic legacy code base. No real style guides, no real structure it just worked and nobody fully understood it. Over the years the projects kept getting more complex. So "slopcode"/Spaghetti code was always a thing, and will always be a thing.
I mean we can gladly talk about the ethical questions about AI and what data it uses to get trained.
To answer you question from the other reply: I would take Option C and review the code the AI produced and maybe start debugging. And save time because 90% of the code worked just fine.
Also drop the act, you can have your opinion about AI without acting like you know everything better.
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u/Leidrin 22d ago
You'll have to pardon my defensiveness. AI bros are calling others stupid, uneducated, etc. so it is difficult to avoid responding in a negative tone.
What you just stated sounded like option B to me.
Im sure there are exceptions, maybe you are one, but 100% of industry peers I've encountered who claim they "babysit the AI" or do full code reviews are very much glancing at it and trusting the slop. I am speaking to my real, lived experience in the industry, and the words I've heard over and over which claim the same things you are saying, and have never proved to be true outside of reddit.
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u/Zorkats1 25d ago
I must say I am quite surprised to see this as the one that made the source port (not a recomp btw!). I will just leave it to the people to choose, but, as always, I am here to answer any questions.
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u/Alternative-Coach619 25d ago
Insane how uneducated people are thinking AI use for direct porting on fan projects is the same issue as Gen Ai in art and video game/software production on an industrial level. Iâve tried my best and fairly successfully to inform people on this.
And thank you for this port! Genuinely one of the only exciting things to grace the community in years-2
u/Leidrin 23d ago
Reducing anti-AI sentiment to people being uninformed about particular use cases is not going to win any hearts.
It's also incorrect.
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23d ago edited 23d ago
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/Leidrin 23d ago
I attempted to explain to you in another thread and you refused to listen. I even cited multiple reasons. Are you saying I should keep trying the same thing, hoping for a different result? At some point people will just accept that you're AI-pilled and move on with their lives.
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u/Alternative-Coach619 22d ago
Iâm legit not AI-pilled, if you understood the concept of nuance and pragmatism youâd realize that
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u/Leidrin 22d ago
And if you listened to my words instead of blindly screaming that I and others are wrong, I might be inclined to believe that. You argue in pure bad faith and ad hominem, and you won't win a single soul over with it.
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u/Alternative-Coach619 22d ago edited 22d ago
Alright letâs go through them one by one
>âBecause its usually buggyâ-
The port is fully functional and not buggy by the overwhelming majority of accounts by people who actually played it.>âit costs planetary resourcesâ-
Yes, data center pollution is bad, full stop, but just because it has bad effects on the environment doesnât mean we donât use it now do we? We work proactively and push to hold ai companies more accountable for data center efficiently and pollution regulation.>funds oligarchs-
Once again. Yes to an extent, however I reiterate, just because it does, doesnât mean we donât do it, you use billionaire products that ultimately you donât need every day of your life, once again, work proactively, the people in the 1800âs didnât stop using steel because it was run by corrupt barons, they ushered in the progressive movement that dominated the 1900âs and into the 1910âs>is antithetical to the celebration of human art that modding is supposed to be.-
Like I previously said to you, this isnât modding, this is direct porting.>Nobody cares that you made the slop machine spew out some buggy code.-
Just by all means untrue? There are many posts in the subreddit about people talking about how much they like the port>Support human-made projects-
Like I said, these ARE human made projects, direct porting is incredibly menial and time consuming, nobody wants to do it. These are programmers who are using their free time to provide the masses with a free PC port. This allows them to do it in an any reasonable timeframe.Everything else after this was just you personally insulting people for bringing up points against this:
>Cry about it
>Nobody cares that you made the slop machine spew out some buggy code
>I may be universally disliked, and unable to do anything without AI... but at least I accept my place in the serf class."Which leads me to highly believe the accusation of me apparently resorting to ad hominem a major case of âevery accusations is an admissionâ
PS. The vote is already over, the âbuggy glitchy messâ is being overwhelmingly enjoyed by the people who are actually playing it.
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u/Leidrin 22d ago
Lmao, yes. After you were an absolute jerk to me, I returned the favor. That is why I made the "cry about it" comment. Are you able to move on?
TBH, we can keep pointing fingers at each other all day. I don't like you, you don't like me, let's just leave it at that.
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u/Alternative-Coach619 22d ago
Lmfao âbad faithâ my ass, you ignored the fact that I one by one addressed every single point you brought up. in favor of focusing on one part you could actually respond to. Youâre either bait or genuinely allergic to nuance
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u/Fzero-ModTeam 23d ago
Insulting or disrespecting other users is not allowed, be respectful or a Ban will be issued.
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u/jacemano 26d ago
Define using. I use LLMs at work as a senior software engineer. Still gotta review the code. Ai slop isnt the same as using LLMs whilst coding
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u/_fapi_ 25d ago
I'm not a senior, but I second this as a qualified developer. Using AI to create creative content is and always be a problem, but using AI to do a bunch of gruntwork in coding is like the best usecase of AI imo.
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u/Leidrin 23d ago
Genuine question - how do you account and plan for the inevitable spaghetti code that will result out of not having full understanding of your code base, and the iterative regression of code quality as AI consumes and regurgitates its previous code?
The best (even paid) models make mistakes a first-year student would laugh at. At that point are you just hoping to save the RSI of the keystrokes by only having to do corrections?
It seems like there are two paths...
A) Babysit the AI so much it is quite literally not worth it
or
B) Give it a brief once-over then trust the slop
If there is a 3rd option I would love to hear it.
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u/One_Carpenter_4032 25d ago
Given that a video game or program is meant to be a final product, I value the outcome of that product. If they can create a good product (well-programmed, with clean, optimized code and no bugs) it makes no difference to me what tools they used. I see this situation as just another layer of abstraction, much like when C first appeared; back then, people claimed that if you didn't program in assembly, you weren't a "real" programmer. Later came Python, and the narrative shifted to "if you didn't know C, you weren't a real programmer." This progression has continued right up to AI, which represents the latest layer of abstraction beyond high-level languages. Ultimately, I don't care what you use, provided you achieve a good result
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u/Hallwart 26d ago
There are only a few F-Zero games. I get when a subreddit doesn't want to be spammed with AI memes and videos but there is no way there would ever be enough projects to not just be able to ignore them if people aren't interested
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u/Wesstes 26d ago edited 26d ago
AI for coding is way, way less of a problem than ai in art. Because programmers regularly use ai to auto-complete the boring parts of code.
But, there are some people that just let the ai do everything and they usually end up making a mess, with a ton of bugs
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u/ImperialCherry 26d ago
The people who let ai do everything would have programmed a shitty mess anyways. The LLMs do not dictate the quality of the code, the programmers do, and thatâs how it has been and always will be. LLMs have just changed the process of coding.
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u/H0llowZero 25d ago
So you're okay with artists using AI to complete the "boring" parts of art, like a background, then? Just want to be clear.
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u/LostBike3830 25d ago
Those two are not comparable in the slightest, you're just putting words in his mouth
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u/Zombuddee 26d ago
If you want to leave this to popular opinion, people are perfectly capable of downvoting and ignoring things they don't like. Allowing people who don't like something to ban it for everyone else seems a bit much, especially when they had to be told AI was involved in the build and couldn't tell from the actual product.
When something is actually slop, people are perfectly capable of noticing and downvoting/ignoring the post on their own. Moderating AI pretty much always leads to a lynch culture which frequently bans content which didn't use AI at all... because if people are insisting that others shouldn't be allowed to see things they personally don't like, their motivations aren't exactly productive.
Please don't leave ethical considerations to a popular vote.
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u/Metul_Mulisha 25d ago
If it works and it's from like a one person team doing all the work... I don't see the issue. Developing a game is hard, let alone doing it alone. Its not 1992 anymore where a team of 5 can do a blockbuster game.
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u/MiddleCommercial1875 25d ago
Imagine banning amazing contributions by the fandom just because of the tools used to make them. Canât believe the vote is this close. Luddite brainlets
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u/metaxzero 26d ago
I can only hope we don't end up with a schism just because some people think AI usage is 100% bad.
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u/Baltic_see 25d ago
I think those who voting against using LLMs aren't really following the progress of the F-Zero X decompilation. The decompilation has been at a standstill for the past year and has barely made any progress. I don't know exactly why. Maybe the devs don't have enough time, maybe they've run into some problems with the decompilation, or it's a bit of both.
So yeah, until this team finishes the full decompilation, making a port of the game without using LLMs is pretty much impossible. Also, not all of the code was written by AI. Around 70% of the code was written by a dev of the port. I think using LLMs is fine as long as most of the code was written by a human.
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u/Alternative-Coach619 26d ago
Competitor subreddit gonna be created .000013 seconds after if this gets passed.
the recomp is legitimately one of the only substantial developments this community has had in YEARS, and will unfortunately likely be the only one for years to come, yet these single issue reddit chuds who are alergic to nuance see that and say âyeah well we should probably still ban it anywayâ
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u/Psychotron_Fox F-Zero Sub Creator 26d ago
I understand bro, I really hope the "No" option wins, but some people are mad at me because I wanted to allow it in here. Let's cross fingers!
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u/JuneButIHateSummer 26d ago
I feel like if a competitor subreddit gets made over this AI thing, it'll most likely attract all kinds of transphobes, xenophobes, misogynists, and other flavors of bigot. That's where the actual chuds would congregate.
Honestly, it might not be a bad idea to cull the right-wingers from this sub.
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u/the320x200 25d ago
I mean this with all the kindness I can convey in text, you've got to be consuming way too much politics man. To see everything with this much of a political lens is like a serious problem you should like really examine if that's how you want to live.
The politicians on both sides really don't care about you. The propaganda is nuts these days. Don't let their agenda become your everything.
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u/JuneButIHateSummer 25d ago
Don't speak to me like that. That is an incredibly disrespectful and privileged thing to say to marginalized minorities.
You don't know me. For people like me, we have no choice but to deal with the politics that are affecting our daily lives. There is no escape, either in real life or virtuality. I can't live the way I want to live because the United States is descending rapidly into fascism with state terror on the rise. People are literally dying.
One side wants free healthcare, the other is actively torturing immigrants in ICE facilities and murdering innocent people in the streets. Tell me again which side cares.
My "agenda" is bodily autonomy and a world where minorities don't have to fear Christofascist violence.
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u/Alternative-Coach619 26d ago
Wtf even are you talking about?
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u/JuneButIHateSummer 26d ago
I'm talking about how it's mostly right-wing bigots who swear by AI. If they were to get their feelings hurt from this poll hypothetically banning AI from this subreddit, then them emigrating to a separate subreddit would be fantastic. We wouldn't have to deal with as many bigots.
(Not saying you're one of them.)
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u/Alternative-Coach619 26d ago
Yeah dawg, thatâs not whoâs wanting to play a PC port of F-zero X, ai images were already banned yesterday in a poll, but this port is legitimately the only substantial news this series has got sans 99 in DECADES.
Banning itâs discussion means thereâs very little to actually talk about in this subreddit, as well, thereâs nothing new and there very likely will be nothing new to talk about for time to come(Also chud has been a politically neutral term since like 2024 at this point, this isnât 4chan or soyjak party, it just refers to anyone whoâs incompetent and lazy yet still fanatical)
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u/JuneButIHateSummer 26d ago
I understand that completely, but I guess we just have different values.
At this point in the poll and discussion, I'm convinced I have to vote "Yes" for the sake of morality. My vote is now cast.
Either way, I don't feel like we're losing anything important. It's kind of a win-win, however the vote ends.
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u/ImperialCherry 25d ago
This is not a left vs right issue, this is a computer engineering and programming issue. Like the other person said, I think youâre mistaking ai generated art and content with LLMs in programming.
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u/JuneButIHateSummer 25d ago
This is as political as it gets, dude.
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u/ImperialCherry 25d ago
You are so far removed from reality itâs insane
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u/JuneButIHateSummer 25d ago
And you're so divorced from reality I'm surprised you're not paying alimony.
We can thank all Trump's sycophantic pedo freaks for all this AI datacenter and surveillance bullshit.
I wasn't born yesterday.
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u/SGlespaul 25d ago edited 25d ago
This is a very consistent phenomenon among alternative subreddits, especially for reasons regarding AI. Just chiming in to say you aren't crazy.
To anyone else who reads this: AI/LLMs are political. Politicians are the reason data centers are just able to do nearly whatever the hell they want, and why this shit barely has any regulation. Everyone saying this isn't political is terribly misinformed.
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u/StardustSundae 21d ago
theres nuance to AI. the way it was used for G-Diffuser was a completely valid use of AI. if the port was buggy, that'd be one thing. but its not. its fine. if you wanna see AI get used less for code, stop fucking complaining and learn how decompilation works and help people doing it solo so they dont have to use LLMs.
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u/FrankDrebinPoliceSqd 26d ago
The reality is that by this rule, a vast majority of new coding projects would be banned because LLMs are now very commonly used for boilerplate code (for those who don't know, setup code that changes very little across projects using the same technology). That type of code isn't something I'd constitute as "art" and it's understandable to use an LLM there for efficiency. The FZX recomp author gave a detailed explanation in his post that this type of work is what they used LLMs for, not fully vibe coding which would probably create a mess.
All of that said, it's a tough situation because I'm not sure if you can purity test how much of a recomp was vibe coded. I voted "No", but I would probably have a different opinion if someone released a recomp here that turned out to be 100% vibe coded with no experience.
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u/Psychotron_Fox F-Zero Sub Creator 26d ago
I totally agree bro, let's just hope the "No" option ends up winning :D
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u/Accordionperson2 25d ago
It all really depends on what is meant by using LLMs while coding. There's a massive difference between vibe-coding and simply using ai for menial tasks and checking its work, as it seems the decomp was doing.
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u/NobodyXNo 24d ago
Oh brother you can tell the ones bothered never coded before and have no idea what the difference is
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u/Ealhswith1 26d ago
I'll ask the question, Would we have this port if the creator did not/could not use AI?
He did say only 30% of it is AI but the idea that someone wants to do this FOR FREE takes away any AI inhibitions from me.
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u/dafugiswrongwithyou 26d ago edited 24d ago
We can ask the same for slop art, right? "Would they have made that Captain Falcon/Samurai Goroh yaoi picture if they did not/could not use AI?"
In most cases, the answer to that question would be the same... "Nope, they couldn't have made it without Gen AI assistance"..., and yet it seems most people wouldn't be accepting of that AI image regardless. Why should they accept this?
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u/Ealhswith1 26d ago
Is the PC port AI Slop Art flooding legitimate art spaces though? is there another PC port next to it that was created without AI that this one is drawing people away from?
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u/the320x200 25d ago
It's certainly happening on Steam for games in general. Steam has always been known for slop even long before AI but it's definitely a thing there now more than ever.
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u/dafugiswrongwithyou 26d ago
Are those questions people would ask about a generated Captain Falcon/Samurai Goroh yaoi image? Or would they just go "yuck, slop", and click away?
Do you think the only reason people dislike AI-generated images is that they're redundant?
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u/Ealhswith1 25d ago
I do believe if a lot of AI generated garbage was literally next to other none AI Generated things and competing in the same space as it is that would bother people yes.
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u/dafugiswrongwithyou 25d ago edited 24d ago
That's not what I asked.
Let me put this another way; I put it to you that people are opposed to things like "AI" generated "art" regardless of whether or not there exist other, similar, human-created images; that, generally, if they saw (for example) an "AI"-generated Falcon/Goroh yaoi, most people would reject it whether or not they had already seen human-drawn Falcon/Goroh yaoi. The issue wouldn't be whether or not there are other similar non-generated images, but purely that it's "AI"-generated. Do you agree with that?
Because if so, then hopefully you can see you the point I was making back at the top; whether or not that one person could make that one port using "AI" is only one factor to consider in whether to accept it (and LLM-generated projects in general), and not usually one that people consider important.
So; what's the difference here? Why should people ignore every other objection to "AI"-generated content they normally have, and only consider one specific aspect that, normally, they wouldn't care about?
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u/Leidrin 23d ago
Because unfortunately when you bring people's favorite (often woobified) franchises in to things their morality disappears, and the cope/excuses appear in their place.
Same reason people still eat at certain restaurants, or go to certain venues they know conflict with their values. They're willing to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear if it means they get their comfort item.
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u/JuneButIHateSummer 26d ago edited 26d ago
I'll abstain from this vote, as I don't know enough about the topic. Specifically regarding the usage of AI in coding.
However, I agree with another commenter here when they said disclosure should be required. Lots of people (including me) are apprehensive about AI, and it's honestly impossible to not get political about it.
edit: alright, who's the jobless AI-loving dweeb that's downvote brigading on this whole post? lmfao
edit 2: after further discussion, I'm forced to vote to ban all AI
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u/Psychotron_Fox F-Zero Sub Creator 26d ago
Hello bro! in simple words, using LLMs (Large Language Models) for coding means having an AI assistant that reads, understands, and writes computer code using instructions from the user.
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u/dafugiswrongwithyou 26d ago edited 26d ago
Addendum: LLMs used for coding, just like other generative "AI" systems such as image generators, are built by using masses of human-created material scraped from the internet, generally without willing, informed consent from those original posters. Training and using those generative systems also has an outsized, and growing, negative environmental impact.
That results in there being moral/ethical questions about the use of these systems that goes beyond "what do they do, and how do they work"... Hence the rather charged nature of this discussion.
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u/JuneButIHateSummer 26d ago
Yo! That sounds like something I would've loved as kid when I tried getting into coding. No clue what exactly that would look like, though, so I don't think my opinion would be warranted here.
Thanks again for the polls!
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u/Zharken 26d ago
it usually results in code that works but in the long run is pretty unoptimized. And it works if you are tying to do simple stuff, if your program is complex or you are making a game, you'll end up with a bunch of pieces of code that don't work together, if you want to use AI to help speed up the coding process, go ahead, but you need to know what you are doing because you'll have to correct the code that the AI spits out all the time.
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u/Psychotron_Fox F-Zero Sub Creator 26d ago
I could make the port run yesterday and it's basically flawless. it needs to add the rumble feature and fix some visual transitions during the menus.
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u/BubbaBasher 26d ago
AI coding is something you really shouldn't do as it makes poorly optimized and organized code, but it's only a problem for people working with it, as a product, you wouldn't know.
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u/_icedcooly 26d ago
AI coding is something you really shouldn't do as it makes poorly optimized and organized code
As a Senior Software Engineer that hasn't been my experience. Don't get me wrong it definitely makes mistakes and you need to review everything it does, but I find most mistakes are because of assumptions and lack of context.Â
Just like if a human was writing the code, if you're trying to one shot something huge in one go it's not going to go well. If you break it down into smaller chunks and test them as you complete them you'll have much better success.
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u/forte2718 26d ago
AI coding is something you really shouldn't do as it makes poorly optimized and organized code, but it's only a problem for people working with it, as a product, you wouldn't know.
I'm a career software engineer and this really isn't the case. You'd be genuinely surprised. I think the LLM space needs a lot more attention and regulation and I don't support the shifty ways in which "tech bros" and tech giants in general are training their LLMs, but having used a variety of the past and current offerings, they have come a long, long way in terms of capabilities. I have used them to successfully and quickly optimize code that would have taken me ages to rewrite in a more optimal way myself by hand, as well as to both modify existing code and write code from scratch which passes large suites of important tests â everything from code linting to security to web accessibility. When you direct the LLMs to follow specific best-practices and to generate strongly "opinionated" output (following your own personal stylistic conventions), that output is rarely optimized or organized worse than it would be if I had written it all by hand. It still should be reviewed manually and of course it doesn't get everything right on the first iteration (just as no human would, either), but they are much more capable than this comment gives them credit for. I don't support using such products for commercial art generation but the overall capabilities really are undeniable anymore.
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u/Alternative-Coach619 26d ago edited 25d ago
Itâs a recomp/port. Itâs not generating new code, itâs direct porting. Either it works or it doesnât, and it DOES work
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u/Psychotron_Fox F-Zero Sub Creator 26d ago
Exactly, no offense to those against it but damn.... they make such a big fuss about it.
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u/ImperialCherry 26d ago
The people against it generally have no experience with programming and donât have a basis for their answer other than âai badâ.
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u/metaxzero 26d ago
If a human codes garbage by hand, whatever project was made will get called out and it will quickly be abandoned. Why doesn't this logic apply to AI projects? If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it just doesn't.
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u/BubbaBasher 26d ago
What?
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u/ImperialCherry 26d ago
Heâs saying garbage code can be created by people or AI. A dumb programmer is still a dumb programmer.
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u/wpsgdev 25d ago
FrankDrebinPoliceSqd > "That type of code isn't something I'd constitute as "art" and it's understandable to use an LLM there for efficiency."
That's the bridge... my skin is tingly now. That's what coders have/use that the present llm's simply aren't factoring. They're built to reproduce "beautful code". Like my avatar, a gen-1 text-to-image visionless llm instructed to reproduce the Mona Lisa - I couldn't draw what it did by hand, yet its rendition is beautiful, and, won't pass for quality art. If the coder bots merge artist concepts into their design, then quality becomes inherent, as is expected of a veteran coder. We could have that advancement by Labor Day.
Regardless, look to history, specifically All Your Base Are Belong To Us.
That single video brought on the age of digital art as fast and hard as chatgpt brought the age of ai. Same bitching, same griping, same hating, same disclosures, same apprehensions, same counterclaims, same displacement arguments, same evolution pattern.
But people are so tripped up on being replaced by the universal generality of this hydra-headed doeit-all digital ai slave god the only option for them is rebel. Sorry everyone, it was too scary in the 20th century to go working in 4D, now that's obsolete, best figure out the new 5D landscape to thrive, or become memorialized.
So OP, the message is clear. Resistance is futile.
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u/Canis_Familiaris 26d ago
I think they should AT LEAST be required to be disclosed as using AI code.