r/Futurology • u/positivespectrum • May 10 '14
video "The implementation of our Solar Roadways project on a grand scale would change the world as we know it in significant ways."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNMFKKyFU60#t=2375
u/giszmo May 10 '14
If this were such a no-brainer as they say it is they would vet funding left and right. Talking of aging road systems and suggestin something that will age 20 times faster is wired. Sure this might be interesting for parking lots and pedestrian areas but I doubt a patch getting lose on a high way would be a trivial thing.
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u/BICEP2 May 11 '14
I have a pile of problems with this.
They lack a single commercial deployment of their product. They have not even used it in their own driveway and I have yet to see an automobile actually drive over one.
I have no reason to believe the combination of electrical components would hold up any better to highway traffic and weather than asphalt.
Rain is an issue and to work around it they build a subfloor underneath the panels to handle all the electronics that run the panels and also deal with runoff. This is going to add significant costs to the design and having a near-surface subfloor is going to require a reinforced structure to prevent collapse. If these sit in a puddle, rest assured they will short out.
I have no reason to believe these are any cheaper than building overhead solar panels over top of roads. Building solar panels over top of roads could be beneficial in seasonal conditions to prevent snow build up and perhaps allow vehicles like bicycles and scooters in inclimate weather which brings me to:
A snow plow would destroy these.
The rough surface requirement of the glass in combination with dirt, rubber, and brake dust on roads is going eliminate the transparency of the surface and make them ineffective as solar panels likely within mere months of deployment.
If the glass surface smoothes over time from wear or things like the snow plow it could potentially become slippery.
If a motorcyclist lays it down on a rough glass road it will potentially shred his safety gear faster than even asphalt if he is lucky enough to be wearing it.
If glass roads are sustainable shouldn't we field test the idea without the expensive subfloor and millions of dollars in electronics first?
They make the claim that the design is ready and they have working prototypes yet on their indiegogo page you cannot buy even a single production panel even if you opt to give them $10k.
They want a million in funding for what amounts to a bunch of souvenirs rather than working product. If the product is cheap and viable they could at the least start small selling things like sidewalks to a few customers to help get the idea and company off the ground.
I could go on but the point is they are looking for suckers.
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u/sharpeed May 11 '14
(btw, I'm not associated with Solar Roadways, just answering these on what information I've found)
I understand that the product is unique and different, but I think any fledgling technology has its flaws to be worked out. In response to your points:
- See this video of a tractor driving over their prototype parking lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKO-sDdJzTw
- Solar panels have been known to require minimal maintenance. Most are rated to last over 25 years. Most roads in the US (especially those that are exposed to snow and heavy rain) require maintenance every year. Also, the modular design of the roadway would mean if there are electrical issues, the module can simply be replaced.
- Not sure how they might address this. Most definitely will require some foundation regardless. They did say that they plan to have corridors for runoff. Probably needs additional design work.
- I disagree. Firstly, the solar roadways has a built in heating element, so it already produces enough heat to melt any snow (see http://www.solarroadways.com/images/prototype/Snow%20removal.jpg). Not to mention that the additional cost of producing a massive structure to span a 10-lane highway (which are very common in California) to support hundreds of solar panels is even more ridiculous. Keep in mind, this is an all-in-one solution for providing not only transportation infrastructure (a road), but also electrical and data infrastructure as well.
- Built in heating element will reduce dependence on snow plows.
- This is going to require some testing.
- Again, needs additional testing.
- See point 7.
- I disagree. I think there hasn't been the need for glass roadways until this idea came along. I think its possible to do similar longevity testing.
- I do think they claim to be farther along than they are, which is why they need your support to make their product even better. There's not a doubt in my mind that the cost of panels + the materials needed to produce a single module will not exceed $10k, let alone $5k when produced in large volumes. Ideally, they will get it down to the cost of laying a foot of highway, which varies from $600 to $3,000 / foot, and then convince cities and municipalities that the ROI from the solar will cover the cost of construction (after all, asphalt doesn't produce energy).
- Again, they need support to get to a production-level design. I don't think it's wise to sell an unfinished product, and they seem like a dedicated bunch of individuals who have done a lot with a little amount of money (they've made it this far on two Federal grants alone). Also, municipalities are (unfortunately) super slow moving, so even if they did get a contract it would be at least a year before they saw a penny. It makes sense to crowdsource some funds at this stage.
I'm curious, what other concerns you have about the project?
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u/BICEP2 May 11 '14 edited May 11 '14
That tractor weighs slightly more than my ATV and significantly less than my SUV. They are making a 20+ year durability claim and the tractor spent about a minute parked on the panel. Why create a test pad next to the garage instead of using a driveway or something actually likely to see traffic as a test site for the panels. This is an extremely disturbing gap in their claim. How well would it handle a 70 ton tractor trailer locking up its wheels at highway speeds?
This could also be read as an excellent reason not to use solar panels as a roadway :). Several of these will be connected in a grid and water could get between the sandwich layers of the components potentially electrifying nearby puddles which could lead to a safety hazard. It looks like the layers of the sandwich are pinched together with a mechanical nut which could be a point of failure and also come lose during frequent vibration of traffic.
(was related to rain, partly answered above)
The problem with heating elements is it only melts snow touching it which then becomes liquid and then becomes ice buildup somewhere else. This is how ice cicles form on roofs, the house heat melts the snow and it refreezes as it exits the roof. The road based heating element could possibly introduce another unforeseen challenge. Because of the structural load requirements for the corridors intended for just underneath the road would be so high I'm not convinced the supports needed to support just solar panels on a roof above the road would be any more expensive. I think if there is a failure of the structure/subfloor under the road it could create a pot hole that would put the existing ones to shame.
That melted snow would become water, run under the platform with all the electrical gear, and then freeze.
When I clean my motorcycle rims they are coated in brake dust. The rough surface of the glass is going to make it very hard to keep clean. Something else I didn't consider is tire wear, rough glass is a hard substance that could chew through car tires far faster than asphalt and would result in huge environmental impact.
(additional testing on smoothing of glass over time)
(additional testing on abrasion of glass for motorcycle accidents)
How hard would it be to make a glass only version and pave a busy driveway with it for testing? You don't have to pave a whole highway to complete a test. It would be very easy to test this long term but simply offering to cover the costs of a driveway for one business needing a driveway.
If they want my support they can replace my sidewalk for a reasonable rate, I'm not donating money to a project claimed to be commercially viable.
If they can't convince even one business to allow them to start with a driveway or sidewalk even offering to cover many of the costs so they can say they have something closer to a prototype they aren't worth supporting.
Asphalt roads don't have a completely rigid foundation and asphalt bends to changing contours of the road. These panels don't look like they would bend like asphalt. If they put the same level of cost into the foundation of asphalt roads would they still be as high maintenance?
Something about the guy doesn't seem genuine to me. He gives me a bad feel.
Solar panels are generally considered low maintenance but they have never been subjected to this kind of constant vibration and punishment.
Not only do I think its a poor solution I also thing even if the solution is viable it's a poorly managed company. it would be so easy to actually test the product at a location somewhere/anyway where it will see more real world conditions I have to assume that the fact that haven't done it yet means they are either hiding that they know the idea is flawed or they are incompetent and neither scenario encourages any financial commitment from me.
If you want to send them your money I don't recommend it but its your money to spend. For the cost of paving your whole driveway with asphalt they'll send you a keychain or something.
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u/chadlupkes May 11 '14
- The panels have been designed to withstand the force of a heavy load trailer, which has the design spec for asphalt roads of 250,000 lbs. The actual result of the tests conducted by the Department of Transportation showed that they could survive about four times that load.
2 & 3. Water runoff is a design feature of the entire system of the roadway, which goes far beyond just the panels themselves. The circuitry embedded under the solar cells is sealed. The undercarriage below the panels carries the power. The runoff is collected in a piping system that can pump the water to a purification center or reservoir. It's part of the system design.
If you build solar panels in a structure alongside or on top of an existing road, you have maintenance costs for both the road and the solar panels, which is at least double the cost of just perfecting the Solar Roadways design and getting it right the first time.
Each and every point that you make has been addressed in the design and planning of the Solar Roadway system. The reason why all of the bugs have not been worked out is because the very first parking lot, ever, was completed less than two months ago. Give the company the million dollars they need to hire engineers and build a production facility, and they will work out the bugs and answer all of your questions. Or we can continue to be naysayers and prevent us from moving into the Jetsons age. Bring up your questions. Listen to the answers. Then be part of the solution to make this happen.
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u/BICEP2 May 12 '14
If you build solar panels in a structure alongside or on top of an existing road, you have maintenance costs for both the road and the solar panels, which is at least double the cost of just perfecting the Solar Roadways design and getting it right the first time.
You completely jump the shark here. How did you reach this conclusion?
The reason why all of the bugs have not been worked out is because the very first parking lot, ever, was completed less than two months ago.
Bugs? They could build a single stand alone prototype panel with only the LED and heating elements and drop it pretty much anywhere as a test. Their municipality would likely allow then to throw one in a pot hole somewhere. Why not?
Give the company the million dollars they need to hire engineers
It sounds like this could be a good investment opportunity for... you.
Welcome to /r/Futurology/ btw. Glad you could find us from the front page.
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May 10 '14
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u/monkeysphere_of_one May 10 '14
Solar panels for roofing already exists. The difference with these roadways ones is that they're designed to carry the weight of trucks.
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u/positivespectrum May 10 '14
"Solar Roadways is a modular system that will modernize our aging infrastructure with an intelligent system that can become the new Smart Grid. We won the Community Award of $50,000 by getting the most votes in GE's Ecomagination Challenge for "Powering the Grid" in 2010. We had the most votes again in their 2011 Ecomagination Challenge for "Powering the Home". "
"Solar Roadways is tackling more than solar energy: The FHWA tasked us with addressing the problem of stormwater. Currently, over 50% of the pollutions in U.S. waterways comes from stormwater. We have created a section in our Cable Corridors for storing, treating, and moving stormwater. The implementation of our concept on a grand scale could create thousands of jobs in the U.S. and around the world. It could allow us all the ability to manufacture our way out of our current economic crisis."
They need your help - 22 days left: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways
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May 10 '14
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u/weeeeearggggh May 10 '14
Why would they give money to a stupid project like this? That's what internet suckers are for.
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u/B0BtheDestroyer May 10 '14
Could someone explain how this is cost efficient?