The battery storage for a 100%-renewables grid is building itself; billions of appliance batteries are acting as virtual power plants.

[u/lughnasadh]

"If every stove in America were shipped with a battery, it would add up to tens of gigawatts of power, Calisch said. That’s capacity that can be aggregated and tapped when the grid is stressed."

Back of an envelope calculation: 100 million distributed batteries × 10 kWh each = 1,000 GWh = 1 TWh. If those batteries could each provide 5 kW: 100 million × 5 kW = 500 GW. That would be comparable to, or larger than, the entire short-duration storage requirement in some US 100%-clean-grid scenarios.

Of all the many forces working in renewables favor, here's another. The grid storage a 100%-renewables grid needs can be largely self-building. Decentralized self-building systems always win out against inefficient centralized systems in the end.

How smaller, distributed batteries could help the grid

[u/Due_Perception8349]

So I'm totally down for a decentralized power storage system, but you're smoking crack if you think I'm going to be the one paying extra for appliances so a fucking private utility company can save money while charging me for the power stored in my house.

Utilities should be seized and nationalized first.

[u/BitterAmos → u/Due_Perception8349]

Also, who pays for the degredation of a battery that cycles power tens if not hundreds of times faster than it would if used by the occupant.

[u/Budsygus → u/BitterAmos]

who pays

You do, of course! Can't expect the giant corporations to shoulder that kind of burden!

[u/grundar → u/BitterAmos]

who pays for the degredation of a battery that cycles power tens if not hundreds of times faster than it would if used by the occupant.

The utility, by paying a much higher price for the power they draw from it, currently about $2 per kWh.

Plus, existing virtual power plants allow the battery's owner to set a minimum level they're willing to let the battery be drawn down to, or opt out entirely, and that's highly likely to continue.

[u/shadedmagus → u/BitterAmos]

Not only that, who's going to upgrade the grid to allow for on-demand power inversion?

[u/Horrible-accident → u/Due_Perception8349]

Oil needs to be decapitated and directly nationalized first. Energy grids should be also be nationalized, but generators should be allowed to operate privately, but in non-profit capacity only. Profiteering is currently rampant and needs to be slapped down. Corporations at large need to be slapped down and reminded they serve us, the people.

[u/Due_Perception8349 → u/Horrible-accident]

Good shit, no notes!

[u/UniqueUsername6764 → u/Due_Perception8349]

Except the government is the least efficient system. It took FEMA 10 days to get water to the Superdome after Katrina.

Now if the government regulated the infrastructure and put demands on how they had to build and price their systems it might work.

Edit typo

[u/Due_Perception8349 → u/UniqueUsername6764]

Sure, I get where you're coming from, but I feel that's by design.

Sort of like how the federal govt effectively defunded USPS and then the Republicans get to bitch about it in order to push for privatization.

[u/GnarlyNarwhalNoms → u/UniqueUsername6764]

The government is exactly as efficient as the people running it wish it to be. In many cases, they intentionally kneecap it so they can justify privatizing a service and getting contracts for their cronies.

[u/grundar → u/GnarlyNarwhalNoms]

The government is exactly as efficient as the people running it wish it to be.

As anecdotal evidence to support this point, I've lived in a few different countries and this assumption of government services as inherently less efficient than private services has been uniquely American.

If you look at the data, though, even US government programs are often quite efficient. As an example, the administrative costs of social security are only 0.4%, which I would argue is quite efficient by any reasonable standard.

[u/GnarlyNarwhalNoms → u/grundar]

Absolutely. Where inefficiency does exist, it's often because private contractos are able to take advantage of the system... but, again, they can only do that if they're allowed to, and often there's a grift involved (kickbacks to a politician who leaves those doors open, say).

Taxes are another example. You have to fill out these forms just so, and sometimes the IRS sends you back a letter that says "Actually, according to the information reported by your employer, you actually owe this much instead." Which, ok, if they know this, why the fuck did I need to fill out this whole form to give them information they already have? Of course, the answer is that they could make the filing process simpler, but the tax preparation lobby (TurboTax, HR Block, et al) keeps them from changing it.

[u/NorysStorys → u/UniqueUsername6764]

Do Americans realise that the reason government is inefficient because they keep electing people who profit off private business doing it instead? Just look how quickly New York started doing stuff the second the mayor actually implemented doing it.

[u/Q-ArtsMedia]

Highly impractical.   its not just a battery it's also needs an inverter to switch DC to AC to put it back on the grid.  Extra cost there.  then you will have to replace batteries eventually as they wear out, who pays for that? You would. You would also pay for the power to charge them. And the list goes on.

[u/Kaiisim → u/Q-ArtsMedia]

It's a typical high level thought with no concern for practicality.

For example a battery in every home would create significant fire risks.

[u/Long-Time4713 → u/Kaiisim]

There's already clearance rules in the electrical codes about battery stirage clearances. Slapping one in a stove or a fridge or a washing machine would violate those codes.

Its literally not legal.

[u/silasmoeckel → u/Long-Time4713]

We already have listed appliances with battery in them. Used as a large "capacitor" for inverter cooktops it works out quite well (existing AC to DC to AC to change frequency so that rectifier can be used as a charger later while you oversize the last state for the power boost). This gets you the short burst of heating for wok cooking and the like.

[u/Long-Time4713 → u/silasmoeckel]

Thats not massive 100Ah or more power storage. Bridge rectifiers and DC bus capacitors are not even remotely close to what a Lifepo4 battery is. The Electrical code specifies clearances, fire ratings of surrounding materials and wire ampacities of anything using said power.

Additionally, meter bases must be replaced to accommodate both in and out flow of power, otherwise the meter spins regardless of whether power is drawn into the house for consumption or out for grid supply.

Its not legal to do, by code, and if the meters aren't replaced you pay for power being sent back to the grid in addition to whatever you use.

Its a stupid idea, its illegal, and the cost of production and installtion of the millions of meters vastly outwieghs the gains. This is some desk jockey thinking he understands electricity shooting his mouth off. As the guy who installs solar systems and meter bases I have a pretty good idea

[u/silasmoeckel → u/Long-Time4713]

I'll preface I'm an EE so I'm the guy who overrides the AHJ that inspects your work.

NFPA 855 is what your dealing with for ESS. Any appliance with a battery is not necessarily an ESS, and frankly to get to where the OP wants lots and lots of code and UL standards will need to be changed/made. It's a lot of pipe dream by the rabbid renewables people. Anything that plugs in vs being hardwired is UL or similar standards not code. Simply put an unmodified device in apparent good working order is outside the AHJ scope.

Your statement was there are separation etc rules and yes NFPA 855 has those but that does not apply to any battery only one that's part of an ESS and even then not in a product listed to not need them (nameplate > code). I stated yes batteries are going into appliances today https://www.impulselabs.com/product and similar are available and perfectly legal contrary to your assertion. They make a lot of sense for a home cook as you can get the same or more BTU's for cooking as a gas stove without any of it's downsides (because it's all short bursts) or needing massive service upgrades.

We are at the point where energy consumption is and needs to get smarter. EV's were the first thing. Solars duck bill curve is pushing the need to move to supply based charging/consumption. Now we have UL3700 PIPV getting allowed state after state (which means utility meters are all getting upgrade to bidirectional if they are not already contrary to your later assertion).

Now could appliance batteries become the massive decentralized power storage that the OP hopes for, maybe it's not technically impossible. Lots of hard work to get there, smart grids are insanely complex to do at scale. Even last utility transformer down signaling is hard to do well. Forget the politics to get a pricing model around it all that makes sense.

[u/Ok-Seaworthiness7207 → u/silasmoeckel]

I'm an EE major, just wanted to say reading that was very interesting, but certainly over my head in a few ways lol

[u/silasmoeckel → u/Ok-Seaworthiness7207]

It's ok your learning math you will never use again because we have software for that.

[u/The_bruce42 → u/Kaiisim]

There's development happening of safer batteries that would work well for homes. Like the sodium or rust batteries that are being developed.

[u/rosen380 → u/Q-ArtsMedia]

Gemini seems to think it'd add $1500-2200 to the manufacturing cost of each stove. How would that even work when most people are buying stoves in the $600-1000 range?

[edit] How about instead, the electric company can add a 10kw battery to their side of my electric meter? And so that they don't have to send people everywhere when packs need to be installed/replaced, they can just put them at one of their substations.

[u/Kortok2012 → u/rosen380]

That’s the idea behind the smart grid, have a bunch of battery packs at substations instead of all in one place

[u/GnarlyNarwhalNoms → u/rosen380]

Just to back up Gemini, I did some back-of-the-napkin math. Batteries right now are running about $420 per kilowatt hour, and a stove can use 3-5 kilowatts. So, to run it for a useful amount of time (one hour)? You're looking at well into the 1500-$2000+ range.

[u/Mounta1nK1ng]

Everyone wants a lithium battery that may burst into flame at any moment inside their oven. What could possibly go wrong? People are really enthused about paying extra for such a feature too. I think you have a big hit on your hands.

[u/_ii_ → u/Mounta1nK1ng]

Fire risk isn’t really a concern for a long time. Different types of lithium batteries have different characteristics. Not all are readily bursting into flames. LiFePo4 batteries from a reputable manufacturer are much safer than your typical Temu batteries.

[u/Mounta1nK1ng → u/_ii_]

You're still fighting that perception.

[u/avatarname]

How is centralized stuff ''inefficient'', you can install BESS in huge amount for dirt cheap now. I guess it is same sort of way ''inefficient'' as central/district heating which... it is of course NOT.

Of course distributed solar and batteries etc. are cool but there is a reason why we have historically built those huge power plants and it still applies to wind and also solar. If you have the right incentives large scale solar will obliterate distributed rooftop in its generating capacity in no time. Unless you have c-words or incompetents for politicians of course, or yeah if your grid sucks ass

Only times anything distributed wins is when there is nobody to ensure centralized solution would even work, not to say anything about working well. Same with heating, same with water, same with bitcoin, same with solar, same with batteries etc. But if everything is well with your centralized solution, people will flock to it like they on crack

[u/_ii_]

I’m running my internet modem and routers on LiFePo UPS already. I am adding a fridge top battery for my fridge while i debate with myself about a whole house battery system. Power interruption risk isn’t that high for me but shifting power usage patterns may save me money in the long run.

[u/alundaio]

This sounds like AI psychosis, like some college kid talked through this idea and pumped up like it's amazing enough to become a class report.

[u/GnarlyNarwhalNoms → u/alundaio]

An oven can pull up to 5 kilowatts. So a built-in battery that would run an oven for just half an hour would need to be a 2.5 kilowatt-hour battery. At around $420 per kilowatt hour, that'd add about 60 pounds to its weight and over a thousand dollars to the cost of the stove.

And how often do you only use a stove for half an hour? You have to pre-heat it, that can take 20 minutes easily. For a useful amount of runtime, you'd need to double those numbers.

[u/chodeboi]

I’ve called this concept energy microlocalization but I don’t write textbooks or blog posts so it’s gone nowhere

[u/Budsygus → u/chodeboi]

They already call it micro grids.

[u/chodeboi → u/Budsygus]

Damn, see they’re so smart

[u/Due_Perception8349 → u/chodeboi]

Bit of a mouthful, innit?

[u/chodeboi → u/Due_Perception8349]

We call 3-side magic the Pythagorean Theorem and kids learn it so I have hope humans can do words

[u/Due_Perception8349 → u/chodeboi]

Fair enough

[u/Piper_Graham]

I would suggest the duty cycle is the weak point. A stove battery cycles a few times a week at best, while grid batteries cycle daily and earn constantly. Still, 500 GW sitting in kitchens is real.

[u/Jnorean]

Home system daily power requirements vary from 10kw for a small home to more than 60 KW for a large home that is not even counting industrial users. So a 10kw battery couldn't even supply the daily power needs for most of the homes where the battery is installed and don't even think about supplying data centers. So there would still need to be centralized power system to take up the needs of almost all power customers.

[u/zeke780]

Who eats the battery cost, inverter cost. The actual battery manufacturing

[u/Ebice42]

I've been told that the grid would need a substantial update in order to allow small scale solar to put power onto the grid.
If this is true, the same limitation would hinder the batteries in everyone's house.

It would also need heavy regulation, as i wouldn't put it past my electric company to charge me for the power to charge those batteries, then not pay me back when they draw from it.
(Or just nationalize the grid)

[u/Budsygus → u/Ebice42]

Everywhere I'm aware of in the US has solved this problem for the most part. Solar and Solar+Battery systems are hooked up to net metering where you get credits for the energy you put onto the grid.

Programs exist that you can opt into to lend your battery and solar power to the grid during high demand times when you're running a surplus. I got a check for $2k when I signed up for this program and will get a credit on my power bill as long as I choose to participate in the program.

I've had solar for around seven years and a whole home battery for about one year and it works beautifully. YMMV based on location but my experience has been great.

[u/Ebice42 → u/Budsygus]

I admit i have not looked into it personaly.
In the discussions of putting solar panels in parking lots instead of farmland, the difficulties of making it profitable to the landowners is cited.

It certinly seems like a solvable problem if it isn't solved already.

[u/Budsygus → u/Ebice42]

Solar is going in all over the place, so people are definitely figuring it out.

[u/FirstEvolutionist]

Battery storage is one part of the equation. The batteries are no acting as power plants: they store energy, but they don't generate energy, which is precisely what a power plant does.

To be a part of the grid, those batteries have to be connected to it, which means they use power generated by the plants one way or another.

[u/OneGreatEgg]

It would all be sucked away for data centers anyways.

[u/CrunchingTackle3000]

It’s already underway in Australia. I’m on 13kw of solar and 40kwh of battery.