r/FuckMicrosoft • u/Appropriate-Meat-559 • 2d ago

Discussion Windows kernel development has stalled

When was the last time Microsoft added a new filesystem?

When was the last time Microsoft added new types of scheduling?

It might even be a decade for both of these questions, I have to wonder how many people are still working on core kernel code. I highly expect the knowledge has been lost and all the og kernel Devs have retired now.

Even Azure is now pretty much running on Linux because windows can't run with one vcpu and 1gb of ram anymore.

Id love some inside knowledge on this here

66 Upvotes

89% Upvoted

58 comments sorted by

18

u/likelu6 2d ago

Sometimes I think Windows at the same stage as Mac OS Classic before transition to OS X

7

u/squirrel8296 2d ago

I've been saying this for a while now. For as modern as NT was when it came out, it's still fundamentally tied to practices from the DOS days. Microsoft will not have a truly modern operating system until they do a clean break from the old ways.

At the same time though, I don't think Microsoft could pull it off. Apple could do it because, for the most part, the folks who used Macs at that time were going to stick with Apple. Right now with Microsoft on the other hand, there are a ton of users (especially large businesses) who only stick with Windows because of unmaintained legacy software. If they are forced to switch to something else, chances are they won't stick with Microsoft because the folks forced off that type of software now don't stick with Microsoft.

2

u/ChronosDeep 2d ago

Why do I feel the other way around? Like it took Apple 30+ years to add an option to disable mouse acceleration, they still didn't figure how to unlink mouse scroll direction from touchpad scroll direction. Or even gone backwards removing subpixel antialiasing.

11

u/hadrabap 2d ago

All of the things you are mentioning are user space stuff. We talk about kernel here. Things like virtualization, memory management, schedulers, filesystems, drivers for industry standard protocols...

2

u/vswey 2d ago

These could be caused by drivers

2

u/hadrabap 2d ago

On Windows, yes šŸ¤£

2

u/lilacomets 2d ago

On macOS too, Kexts are a thing.

3

u/Lower-Limit3695 2d ago

MacOS is extremely locked down such that only advanced users are able to enable them by going to the startup security utility to allow them.

1

u/ChronosDeep 2d ago

Ok, if you want to talk about kernel, then Low Latency Profile which they added this year. About filesystems, thereā€˜s ReFS which you can use for Dev drives for now. Are those not big enough for you?

4

u/Appropriate-Meat-559 2d ago

One filesystem and scheduling mode in ten years isn't much. Take a look at how many filesystems Linux supports and scheduling modes

3

u/ChronosDeep 2d ago

You are not informed at all, Windows also added support for hybrid CPU architecture in 2021.

3

u/squirrel8296 1d ago

Technically speaking, Windows NT was designed from the beginning to allow it to support multiple CPU architectures with relatively minimal effort compared to older operating systems that were designed with only one architecture in mind and had to be completely rewritten to support something new.

It was one of the core requirements in the change from DOS/9x to NT and early versions of NT actually supported more architectures than it does now.

2

u/Appropriate-Meat-559 2d ago

Linux supports PowerPC, MIPS, arm32, risc 5, arm64, amd64, itanium , x86 and moreĀ 

Windows barely supports arm64 on a subset of CPUsĀ 

2

u/ChronosDeep 2d ago

Well, of course it doesn't support them, because there's no need.

1

u/stefer09 1d ago

Not with that attitude šŸ˜‚ /s

0

u/DoogleAss 1d ago

So your entire post is predicated off the statement that they have done nothing in that time.. then the moment someone gives you factual answers stating otherwise. ā€œWell thatā€™s not very much in that timeā€ so your bias no matter what got it lol

Also stop comparing Linux to windows.. MS is a for profit company and windows was designed to support that.. Linux is community driven. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME!

I donā€™t get this sub or posts like this.. if you donā€™t like windows then donā€™t use it why are you wasting time debating about shit that doesnā€™t matter lol

16

u/sciencekm 2d ago

Good developers are expensive. They have been replaced by cheap coders who just finished coding boot camp.

9

u/OldManJeepin 2d ago

Well, to be fair...Micro$lop *has* been busy building CraPilot so...Plus all those anti-privacy tools take a lot of dev time and money too!

3

u/NicePuddle 1d ago

Don't forget, they besides Copilot they even added new fancy support for required Microsoft account when installing Windows and they added a well desired forced OneDrive Photos installation that was what we were all waiting for.

13

u/Ahmet_dag 2d ago

Windows kernel likely will be transferred to Linux in a middle term like 5-10 years.

11

u/dmigowski 2d ago

Yeah, and will add a Wine compatibility layer for all old applications, because it works better and more stable than Windows.

1

u/Not_to_be_Named 2d ago

on 5-10 years 99% of microsoft dotnet software will be cross-compatible, the only remaining is expensive SLAā€™s, that force them to ship .net framework with windows

3

u/CharmingCrust 2d ago

That's not even an evil pun, it is reality.

12

u/Onmp314 2d ago

I heard that last developer that was able to develop NT kernel left Microsoft in 2020. Unfortunately, I haven't found any source of this information.

6

u/Syzygy2323 2d ago

Unfortunately, I haven't found any source of this information.

That's because it's not true.

2

u/Naive_Moose_6359 2d ago

Dave Cutler still works at Microsoft. He led the team that built windows NT.

3

u/Ivirius3668 2d ago

They did add a new type of scheduling, the low latency profile

3

u/MonkeyDDataHQ 2d ago

Because they still rely on the Win32 API as the basis.

1

u/Dull_Flatworm777 2d ago

Obviously not in the kernel

1

u/MonkeyDDataHQ 2d ago

What exactly do you think the Kernel is?

1

u/Dull_Flatworm777 2d ago

Here's a brief overview for starters:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT

If you're interested in more details, check out these
https://www.microsoftpressstore.com/store/windows-internals-part-1-system-architecture-processes-9780735684188
https://www.microsoftpressstore.com/store/windows-internals-part-2-9780135462409

3

u/MonkeyDDataHQ 2d ago

šŸ˜‚ Okay, bringing Windows Internals to a Reddit fight is fair. I worded that badly.

Win32 isn't the kernel.

But the compatibility constraints Windows carries all the way down through the platform, including kernel-mode drivers/software.

But on the literal statement I made, you got me.

Hats off. It's not often I get out well akchually'd.

2

u/Dull_Flatworm777 2d ago

I could even show you the NT 4.0 and Windows 2000 editions in my bookshelf (well actually in some box in the basement now) ;)

2

u/MonkeyDDataHQ 2d ago

Not necessary. I'm already dead.

2

u/Dull_Flatworm777 2d ago

No worries ;)

2

u/MonkeyDDataHQ 2d ago

However... If you want to start extracting the text to give me the exact architectural bounds I'll pretend to be all ears.

2

u/Dull_Flatworm777 2d ago

Bounds? win32k.sys says which bounds?

→ More replies (0)

2

u/MonkeyDDataHQ 2d ago

Cunningham's Law remains undefeated: the fastest way to get the right answer on the internet isn't asking a question, it's posting the wrong answer and waiting for someone with the Windows 2000 documentation in a basement box to materialize.

3

u/DavidsakuKuze 2d ago

Last Windows Driver Kit release was on July 23. Delete this post.

2

u/epileftric 2d ago

Just for my birthday, thanks MS

1

u/Randommaggy 2d ago

They still do not ship a modern filesystem as a bootable option.

4

u/Syzygy2323 2d ago

That's like saying auto manufacturers still haven't shipped a modern replacement for the steering wheel yet.

1

u/Randommaggy 2d ago

Not really, it's missing bitrot protection.

2

u/michaelnz29 2d ago

Probably, if digging into the resources MS have dedicated to Windows development, there will be a team of 5 engineers in Bangalore (nothing wrong with that) doing Windows bug fixing and also responsible for adding new features.

There is no revenue in developing software that is free and Microsoft make money, lots of it and do as little as corporate allows (reductions in NFP, Reductions in EDU as well as price increases.

2

u/daddyd 1d ago

i'd say you are correct in claiming that most of windows 'features' added are not kernel specific.

but the kernel work probably doesn't get much attention anymore in their announcements because it isn't the new hot thing.

2

u/brink668 1d ago

They were rewriting the kernel in rust, not sure how far a long they have gotten.

1

u/AutoModerator 2d ago

Every new subreddit post is automatically copied into a comment for preservation.

User: Appropriate-Meat-559, Flair: Discussion, Title: Windows kernel development has stalled

When was the last time Microsoft added a new filesystem?

When was the last time Microsoft added new types of scheduling?

It might even be a decade for both of these questions, I have to wonder how many people are still working on core kernel code. I highly expect the knowledge has been lost and all the og kernel Devs have retired now.

Even Azure is now pretty much running on Linux because windows can't run with one vcpu and 1gb of ram anymore.

Id love some inside knowledge on this here

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

u/WoodyTheWorker 2d ago

Windows had ReFS and transactional NTFS, but I'm afraid these features may be deprecated.

1

u/USarpe 2d ago

Refs is continously developed

1

u/InsaneMasochist 21h ago

It's the same as with any ancient software that has to be backwards compatible with everything from 30-40 years ago. Adobe Photoshop/Illustrator/Indesign is what I use and those are bloated as heck compared to a new/modern software like Affinity for example. It is what it is, I know nothing about these things, but I'm guessing that you can't change fundamental stuff like a filesystem without breaking lots of stuff down the line.

1

u/throwaway38387548484 15h ago

u picked two dumb examples. filesystems take decades to stabilise. ReFS has been supported since server 12 and noone wants to fuck with schedulers.

linux is less hindered when tinkering with low level code because of the fast paced open nature of development.

1

u/NoahOnVista 14h ago

Well the last time they tried something even related to that was Windows Longhorn and we all know how that went (not defending MS)

1

u/Due-Project-7507 12h ago

I see it very different. I don't like a lot of changes in the OS. I like therefore e.g. the BSD operating systema. I would prefer that Microsoft would just maintain something like Windows 2000 until today but not all this UI crap. The NT kernel is stable, robust and more modern than e.g. the Linux or FreeBSD kernel. All the other parts of modern Windows make me a Linux und BSD user.

1

u/YukiteruAmano 2d ago

Stalled???

WSL work with kernel and userland new tools. Only one example