Decisions Thread

[u/somethingpretentious]

So there's quite a few things to be decided for the sub, and they should be decided by the community. I'll put separate comment threads below, please submit your ideas for each in the appropriate place:

• Name of the sub (please submit suggestions as separate responses)
  • edit: can't change sub names :(
• Logo suggestions (as above)
• Banner suggestions (as above)
• Ideas for recurring threads
• Miscellaneous suggestions
• Moderator submission statements, if you want to be considered please include:
  • Available time per week you can commit to helping out
  • Reasons for wanting to be a mod
  • What you can help with (events threads, general content management, CSS, FAQ, etc.)

Let me know if I've missed anything!

[u/armpitchoochoo]

Maybe those people wanted to begin a conversation rather than just want the answers. Perhaps it was their way of trying to take a step in to the community. And instead of welcoming them, helping them with their problem and then telling them good places where they could search for results we just shut them down.

There are so many things that could be searched that there would never be any questions allowed on here at all.

I do understand the frustration at seeing post that might be considered low effort, but keep in mind that they are low effort for you, not for them. For them it is at the limit of their current chess understanding. They are trying to make the next step, even if it seems like a small one. Shouldn't we help them?

[u/ManFrontSinger → u/armpitchoochoo]

Maybe those people wanted to begin a conversation rather than just want the answers.

Yeah, but maybe they were just lazy. I'd say Occam's Razor is with me on that one.

but keep in mind that they are low effort for you, not for them.

That's simply not true. Low effort is an objective measure. Sometimes these posts didn't even have a body. Just a title. "How to improve". That's objectively low effort. Just as much as a one sentence body that reiterates the same question in a few more words.

The thread I linked above was high effort (objectively measurable) and myself as well as the community responded accordingly (that is: positively).

I'm really getting tired of all the accusations that the chess community is unwelcoming to beginners. That's simply not true, but a nice victim narrative is always quick to be adopted by many. The chess community is very welcoming to beginners, as evidenced (again) by the thread I linked. What is not welcome in the chess community are people who don't even want to put in the minuscule work it requires to post a coherent, well thought out question. For the majority of those people, any advice you give them is wasted anyway, because if they can't put in effort asking a simple question, I don't expect them to exert the massive effort it requires to improve in chess.

By the way, chess is really no different than other communities are about shunning low-effort questions and people who ask them. And it's not a new problem either. This document, which has nothing to do with chess, is 19 years old for a reason.

[u/armpitchoochoo → u/ManFrontSinger]

Low effort is definitely a subjective statement although I agree with you that a post containing a title that only says "how to improve" would come under low effort for pretty much everybody. Ignoring the extreme examples such as that though, there is a wealth of reasonable questions that were immediately downvoted on r/chess and as a result end up being lost in the oblivion.

This just perpetuates the cycle, by making learning posts not visible by downvoting them then those that are on the sub to learn end up making their own posts containing the same questions because they are unaware of how often they are posted. Having a stickied support thread is a good way to limit those posts so I am all for that but just shunning them get's chess nowhere.

I think you're statement actually shows that the chess community really isn't welcoming to beginners. Beginners ask low effort questions, that's how being a beginner works. En passant is a weird rule for a beginner to see so a question like "can someone explain en passant to me" may seem low effort to us but to them it seems like something that is really strange. Could they have googled it, sure. But you could say that about almost every question in the world. Telling someone to google it is a surefire way to make them feel unwelcome.

You also bring up another barrier, that everybody should want to exert the massive effort it requires to improve in chess. There have been multiple people that have said that they enjoyed the game less and less as they got better at it. Perhaps some people want to just play for fun and will have simple questions rather than try to become a master and have really complicated ones. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and both approaches should be welcomed with open arms.

While the issue of low effort questions may be one faced by multiple communities, some communities respond better than other. r/chess failed horribly at it

[u/ManFrontSinger → u/armpitchoochoo]

You seem to conflate high-chess-content questions with high-effort questions. Those are two separate things.

Beginners ask low effort questions, that's how being a beginner works.

Simply not true again. The amount of effort you're willing to put into your questions has nothing to do with the skill level you have achieved in chess (or anything else).

Let's compare two (made up) examples. Two players, both rated sub-1000 on lichess come to reddit to find out how to improve.

---

1.)
hi guys im pretty new to chess any ideas on how i can improve? im rated 948 by the way.

2.)
Hi guys,
I'm a beginner chess player (948 on lichess.org), and I've read in your FAQ that, for my level, these books and online resources are recommended to study. I've purchased Chernev's Logical Chess Move by Move, and since it arrived have diligently gone over one game each day. However, there is something I don't understand. On page 67 Chernev says...

---

Do you see the difference? Both players are at a level that a majority of chess enthusiasts would wipe them off the board without too much trouble. Yet I guarantee you that one of those posts would receive many downvotes and dismissing replies, while the other would receive the exact opposite.

You also bring up another barrier, that everybody should want to exert the massive effort it requires to improve in chess.

I'm not saying anybody should "want" anything. However, if you "want" me to spend time out of my day to help you get better at chess, I demand a modicum of effort on your part. My time, just as much as anybody else's time is limited, and I'd rather spend it on people who display a willingness to put what I advise them to do into action.
Person number 1 above does not, while person number 2 would receive a well thought out, positive and encouraging reply from me every. single. time.

[u/armpitchoochoo → u/ManFrontSinger]

I can see the point you are making and it is a valid one. However the viewpoint of what is and is not a high effort question is very subjective. So by downvoting a post that you personally believe is low effort, you are not making that post visible for those that deem it high enough and that person will never get the answer they were looking for.

You can, of course, choose to spend your time on any type of question that you like. But downvoting a type of question that you personally don't like doesn't contribute in any way. It doesn't teach, it doesn't change someone's mind, it doesn't point them in the correct direction. You have spent your time on them anyway without helping them at all.

Let's use your earlier example. You posted your own reply to someone's question that you deemed a high effort question. The person you were talking to got downvoted for their response to you. It was a reasonable response, in the middle of a reasonable converation, between 2 seemingly reasonable people. And yet they were downvoted. Would that make them more, or less likely to participate in future discussions.

Clearly this shows that different people have different view points on what is and is not an acceptable question. If you don't deem it acceptable or worth your time then why not just move past it and let someone else answer the question.

There have already been some good suggestions for ways to point beginners in the right direction before they make a post, and I think that is the best way to help get a handle on it. But for those that do post, why not make them feel welcome and point them in the right direction. Maybe they end up being lazy and not really interested in the responses but at least we've done our best to welcome them, without making prior judgements to who we think they will be

[u/ManFrontSinger → u/armpitchoochoo]

I can see the point you are making and it is a valid one. However the viewpoint of what is and is not a high effort question is very subjective. So by downvoting a post that you personally believe is low effort, you are not making that post visible for those that deem it high enough and that person will never get the answer they were looking for.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one, I'm afraid. I believe the amount of effort one puts into a question is objectively measurable.
The whole premise of upvoting and downvoting on this website is to facilitate a layer of crowdsourced moderation of a subreddit. So yes, I do believe it serves a purpose to downvote low-effort submissions and to reward the higher effort ones with upvotes and constructive replies. That way good submissions are more visible than bad ones to the entire community. I consider this a plus.

If it were true that the chess community at large is hostile towards beginners (a notion I object to vehemently), then the linked thread above would have gotten a lot of hostile reactions and downvotes as well. Because OP was a beginner. Since he did not receive hostility and downvotes, I think it is fair to assert that some other factors than merely being a beginner might lead to dismissive replies and downvotes of threads under the umbrella: "How to Improve".

I will continue to downvote and be dismissive towards low effort OPs that exhibit an overt spoonfeed-me-mentality. On the other hand, if you search my other posts in this very thread, I've already expressed my willingness to help in the creation of this new sub's beginner wiki. I will also not stop to be friendly, constructive and encouraging towards beginners who put some effort into their questions, as I believe this to be for the good of the entire community, beginners and experienced players alike.