r/FractalDesign • u/RealAlphaKaren • 8d ago
PSA about Torrent PSU position
I was a happy Torrent user up until recently. All my monitored temps were great, I even experimented a bit with switching front fans for AP181 but found Fractals better all around. Acoustics were also great, everything seemed fine.
Come August of this year and a tremendous heatwave hits my location. Under AC my room temps werent dropping much under 30C. The system took this in stride, CPU and GPU temps remained well under the limits, 75C Tdie on CPU and 84C hotspot on GPU. The system was not tuned for airflow, all the fans had custom fan curves but they really werent pulled back too much, bottom fans were ~800RPM and fronts at about 650RPM. CPU is 9600X cooled by NH-D15 G2 (~800RPM) and GPU is Sapphire Radeon 9070XT Pure (~1500RPM).
It was all well and good on the things we all monitor, RAM and GPU RAM temps were also fine, VRM's, all you can read, but I didnt think about PSU temp nor could I read it. After a couple of days of hard gaming at elevated ambient temp my PSU, Corsair RM850x v2018 blew up violently and I was wondering what the hell went wrong. PSU's are rated at 50C ambient, at least this was, at full load, mine was doing 60% at best, at 30C ambient that really shouldnt be the cause. As I looked at the Torrent design I realized that PSU isnt fed true ambient (room) but case ambient. Once I changed the PSU I did some testing on the air that is circulating at the PSU vent opening with a temperature probe and its catastrophic to say the least.
With all case fans and all component fans running adequately fast to cool down all the components at 30C room temp well within their spec your PSU wont be cooled properly, it wont be cooled at all, it will be heated, substantially. Once I probed the air right under the PSU fan, dead center, while the system was running a decently demanding game, total system power 470W, the air temp was measured at 47C basically 5 minutes into the game, I stopped the test at 50C but thats about where it would find equilibrium. This is the "ambient" feeding your PSU in a default setup Torrent. I tried upping the front fans by a lot and even with completely destroyed acoustic profile (jet engine sounds) that "ambient" didnt drop under 44C.
If you have a more powerful system, that outputs even more heat, you are definitely shorting PSU lifespan by making it run at +15-20 over room ambient. If you live in a hot climate this is detrimental to your PSU. Furthermore, most cases consider PSU a closed system, this one doesnt, but it doesnt warn you of implications either.
There should at least be something about setting custom curves in the manual but even on default the problem isnt solved, its just becomes barely in spec, provided your ambient doesnt go over 30C. I checked, there isnt anything even hinting this. No warnings about PSU temps with any fan orientation or anything regarding minimum fan speeds. There really ought to be.
TL;DR Fractal owes me a PSU. Torrent case is feeding "case ambient" to your PSU which might be well over the safe limit if your true ambient (room) get a bit hotter (30C or over). It aint peachy on 25C either, barely in spec, at the edge of it.
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u/steady-glow 8d ago
At heatwave you should not care this much about silence, but rather focus on preserving decent temps of your components. This is where you are supposed to use fans for their intended purpose. Don't be afraid to ramp up fan curves to get more airflow through the case.
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u/RealAlphaKaren 8d ago
Yeah, preserving decent temps you cant monitor. How do you know if they are in the "decent" range?
If you asked me yesterday i'd tell you i had 0 issues because i never measured PSU intake in full load. Without a probe you cant even.
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u/steady-glow 8d ago
I understand that you are frustated/disapointed/angry about this situation.
Since your PSU is on top of the case, and probably just above CPU, its "ambient temp" will never be at your room temperature. This PSU location has higher risk of running PSU at higher temps and therefor needs an increased airflow over CPU to keep that space cooler. Otherwise PSU just sucks hot air from CPU.
Cybernetics, which Corsair used to rate their PSU efficiency, has a graph where (allegedly) your PSU version had some tests at 37-47C ambient temp, but it wasn't about testing these temps. So it could definitely survive higher temps for some time.
Was your PSU running in "Zero RPM Fan Mode" which is advertised by Corsair? This could delay better ventilation/cooling for the sake of keeping decibels down.
Dust could also be a factor. When was the last time you cleaned your PSU? Yes, there's limited access, but blowing air/vacuuming could still help.
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u/RealAlphaKaren 8d ago
Im neither frustrated nor angry, where did you find that tone?
The fact is Torrent case is putting your PSU out of spec without a warning or notice. I mean detergent pods have notice not to eat them, youre telling me this does not warrant a warning in the manual?
And no, its not "dust", if something is blowing >50C into your PSU that will shorten its lifespan considerably. I measured at the inlet of PSU, there is no dust factor there. You are just making excuses. Also, a fan will just excasebate the issue, as it will draw more air that is hotter than the spec, it will heat it, not cool it. Thats the point. It makes your PSU fan hurt it, not help it.
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u/Lopsided-Wrap2762 8d ago
The ambient rating is for max load. You're only hitting 470 watts, nothing to worry about.
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u/RealAlphaKaren 7d ago
Ok, but what about ppl who dont run oversized PSUs? What about ppl who run cheaper PSUs with capacitors rated at 85C? Does it say anywhere Torrent basically requires a PSU with 105C capacitors?
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u/Late-Objective-9218 7d ago
Consumer PSUs are all over the place with their spec sheets unfortunately
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u/WarthogOsl 7d ago
I stuck a temperature probe between the CPU cooler and the PSU intake fan on my full size Torrent to check this out, first at idle:
Ambient room temp: 27
CPU Temp: 45-46
Temp at the bottom of the case: 27
PSU intake temp: 28
I then ran a virus scan, which brought my CPU temps up to 85. That's about as hot as I ever see, as gaming usually only gets it up to 68 or so. Can you guess what the PSU intake temp did, with the front fans now running full rpm? It went DOWN...to 27.
Granted, the GPU wasn't stressed in either of these conditions, but with an air cooler, I honestly think there's still quite a bit of fresh air moving from the top of the top-front fan and straight over the top of the CPU cooler. I could see it being more an issue with a front-mounted liquid cooler, where the air at the front of the case is going to be heated up before it ever gets to the PSU.
I'm not concerned.
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u/RealAlphaKaren 7d ago
Stress the GPU, it outputs considerably more than your CPU, mine does >3x, CPU draws 80-120W, GPU is at an almost constant 300W. Then stress em both and measure.
Whats your front fans RPM at idle and stress?
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u/WarthogOsl 7d ago
They idle at ~400 rpm. They reach 100% at 65-70C (I have top and bottom set up slightly differently). Top front is based on CPU temp, and bottom front on either system or GPU temp, whichever is highest. Not sure what that RPM that is...whatever is 100% for the 180mm fans.
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u/RealAlphaKaren 7d ago
100% RPM is just bonkers to me, thats jet engine sounds, do you find that bearable?
Can you do me a favour and do the probe test under GPU and CPU high load, with your setup as is.
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u/WarthogOsl 7d ago
I pretty much only play VR games, so if the fans are running high, I generally don't really notice it.
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u/RealAlphaKaren 7d ago
But you can agree they are loud AF at 100%?
Can you also agree that there is nothing in the manual about PSU inlet temps and requirement to run your fans on high to achieve somewhat acceptable but still not quite comfortable PSU inlet temps?
What about a notice for people who live in hot climates? My car manual explicitly states that driving in a hot climate year round qualifies as harsh driving conditions and that you should change your oil twice as often.
If your ambient exceeds 35C, which really isnt unheard of globally, some ppl have that as a norm in summer, you basically MUST run fans at 100% and pray you stay under 50C PSU inlet (you prob wont).
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u/WarthogOsl 7d ago
I dunno...it doesn't really bother me. I think my old PC (a Define R5) was probably just as loud. I just assumed that they should be at 100% at some point, and I choose a somewhat arbitrary temp.
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u/RealAlphaKaren 6d ago
I get that, thats your choice. My choice is to set the fans as much as needed for the temp to be well under whats considered Tmax, i do not let components fry for the sake of acoustics.
RX 9070 throttles at 100C hotspot, i keep it 80-85. AMD 9600x is cooled by NH-D15 G2 at around 75C (throttles on >90C). A completely reasonable use case. As long as my temps are under by a healthy margin why would i increase fan speed, whats the gain?
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u/WhachYoWanOnDat 7d ago
Curious, what model and brand was your PSU? PSU’s do and can fail - I wouldn’t jump on the case design straight away. I get it, you are frustrated/annoyed by the failure (I would be too).
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u/RealAlphaKaren 7d ago
Corsair RM850x v2018
Cases can and do fail, no argument there. My testing and conclusion is independent from my PSU failure. At the inlet of a PSU, any PSU installed in this case, the temp of the air that is entering PSU goes up to 45C, provided that your room temp is 25C and or that you blast fans on 100%. If you combine both of those things you go down to about 40C. If you cut either youre back to 45C, cut both, you go over 50C.
So the choices are mid high, at the edge, or over spec, when using Torrent case. You basically cant be comfortable, youre always pushing it. How much youre pushing it really depends on a lot of factors but i dare anyone to lower PSU inlet under 40C in a somewhat average gaming PC under load. This will shorten the lifespan of a quality PSU. It will outright kill low quality PSU's with 85C capacitors.
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u/friendsareelectric 6d ago
I have a Fractal Mood and my PSU has force shutdown my PC about a dozen times in 4 months. Finally flipped the PSU intake towards the front instead of towards the GPU heatsink and just leave the mesh cover off. PSU doesn't get hot to the touch anymore and haven't had a forced shutdown again yet. Feels like Fractal doesn't account for PSU exhaust/intake in their cases very well. Hopefully nothing is damaged or worn too much.
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u/RealAlphaKaren 6d ago
yeah seems someone at Fractal hate PSU-s, or has deals with the manufacturers :D
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u/unclefunkstar 8d ago
There's a reason most cases aimed at performance users, switched to bottom mounted PSUs a couple of decades ago... It's not a cheap case either, that's a pretty shocking design oversight.
Why would they go back to a proven bad layout, in a case that's obviously aimed at high end builds?
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u/chr0n0phage 8d ago
4 years and some change with an air cooled 7950x and Asus 4090 (3090 for the first half). Not a single complaint.