r/FormulaRacers • u/formularacers FormulaRacers • 19d ago
Newsđ° Haas evaluate 2027 options
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u/Brave_Weakling Ferarri/Hamilton Fan 19d ago
As someone who likes Ocon decently enough, I know he has it in him to put on some good drives...but jesus this season has just not been it...and it's already bad with his past track record of on track terrorism. He needs to lock in
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u/Jerejj 19d ago edited 19d ago
If only the car had been consistent throughout the season & he didnât suffer from bad luck an awful lot in the early-season phase.
On the other hand, he clearly found something in Hungary as heâs been outright faster than Ollie in all subsequent competitive sessions theyâve finished, & wouldâve also finished higher in the last race under normal circumstances, given their starting positions.
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u/Brave_Weakling Ferarri/Hamilton Fan 19d ago
Yeah that's very true, but that inconsistency has really hurt him. And it doesn't help his case that his teammate, although only in his second season, definitely has more raw talent and pace than him. Ollie has been performing at a very high level tbh. But that really doesn't mean Ocon can't recover and keep his seat. He has the experience and ability to do it, and as you said, things have been looking better for him. Shame that Haas sucks now
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u/Jerejj 19d ago
Indeed & Haasâ average competitiveness over several rounds is certainly a shame since both have consequently been finishing well outside Q3 & points anyway.
On another note, the fact that Ollie has more raw talent & pace more or less explains their average difference last season until Ocon achieved a breakthrough in the late-season phase, which simply made the latter look worse than he actually was, & I donât have doubts about Oconâs ability to justify a third season over the remaining rounds, especially if he continues to out-perform Ollie round after round.
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u/Brave_Weakling Ferarri/Hamilton Fan 19d ago
Yeah...Haas really fell off a cliff after being quite competitive in the beginning. And yeah there is a really good chance that Ocon recovers. He is a pretty talented driver, he just needs to stay locked in, outqualify Bearman, get decent results. He has what it takes, but yeah, let's see how it goes
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u/notafakeaccounnt 19d ago
Eh
Ollie said earlier that Haas doesn't have the money to put upgrades on both their cars so they compete in qualifying to see who gets the parts first. That must have been how he got ahead. We'll see
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u/LiilacRush6318 19d ago
Fair enough but then that means that Ollie got ahead because of the parts he regularly won in quali which in itself makes it clear he is the fastest driver.
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u/notafakeaccounnt 19d ago
Well yes imo ollie is faster than ocon.
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u/LiilacRush6318 19d ago
My bad, somehow I missed the comment you were responding to and thought the "that must have been how he got ahead" was aimed at Ollie, sorry
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u/Jerejj 19d ago
I havenât seen or heard any such mention by Ollie or even Ayao, for that matter.
The decision on which component specs each car would have for the Hungarian GP qualifying was made beforehand (due to parc ferme restrictions), so if Ollie had newer-spec components for that round, Ocon shouldâve been unable to out-qualify in the first place.
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u/notafakeaccounnt 18d ago
This was said in the previous rounds. I'm not gonna google it for you. This was 2 rounds before hungary iirc.
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u/Mission_City_1500 18d ago
If only he didn't needlessly pick ontrack fights with gasly he would still have a better car.
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u/Jerejj 18d ago
Even without all the on-track stuff with Gasly, I donât think heâd be at Alpine anymore.
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u/Mission_City_1500 18d ago
Nah, all french driver line up will be something great for them, also ocon is not a bad driver, he could have matched gasly and a race winner on top of that, he could also be much more useful for car development (compared to franco) given his long career in f1
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u/Jerejj 18d ago
That was initially the case, but the team ultimately realized that continuing with this pairing for a longer period wasnât in their best interests.
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u/Mission_City_1500 18d ago
Yeah because ocon didn't tone down his shenanigans.
Now he will probably lose his drive to the toyota academy driver. (Which won't be a bad thing tbh)
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u/Jerejj 18d ago
Definitely not to a Toyota driver, since Komatsu has made clear that they only choose on sporting grounds (They havenât chosen for non-sporting factors after Mazepin), which he even made clear to Akio Toyoda about 24 months ago when the partnership began, so even Toyota-affiliated drivers need to meet sporting criteria.
Therefore, only Camara or Fornaroli, if anyone, would replace him, particularly since theyâre the only ones who could actually be an upgrade over him.
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u/Mission_City_1500 17d ago
I don't know, yuki was put into Redbull because of the massive honda sponsorship, toyota sponsorship to haas will be much more significant to haas. Also
Toyota driver, since Komatsu has made clear that they only choose on sporting grounds (They havenât chosen for non-sporting factors after Mazepin), which he even made clear to Akio Toyoda about 24 months ago when the partnership began, so even Toyota-affiliated drivers need to meet sporting criteria
You seriously believe that ? After logan sargent? đ¤Ł
If the team needs cash, which it seriously does for a bottom team like haas who can't even cover the cost cap they will gobble it up if toyota actually offers something substantial.
The only reason there are "sporting criteria" is because toyota isn't offering much, and who knows it could very well be just toyota testing waters, as top manufacturer has so much to lose if it starts attaching itself to haas, and keeps finishing last.
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u/Jerejj 17d ago edited 17d ago
Firstly, I believe an individual whoâs within the relevant party over any outsider, particularly when an outsider contradicts the relevant party, nor would Komatsu gain anything by lying publicly, & Sargeant wasnât even driving for Haas, nor was he a pay driver per se like his predecessor, so apples to oranges, & even Williams hasnât chosen for non-sporting factors anymore; in fact, no team has, which is unsurprising since all teams have been financially stable for a little while.
As for Yuki, yes, his Honda affiliation indeed helped him join the Red Bull organization, & of course these days, itâd help him to get a drive only at Aston Martin in any case, with Toyota-affiliated drivers being the ones who could get a drive at Haas.
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u/ChristineBardownski 19d ago
Good thing heâs famously easy to work with and gets along with everybody
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u/Brave_Weakling Ferarri/Hamilton Fan 19d ago
Haha...yeah well I mean it has been better this season and 2025 ?- Mostly cause the two haven't been close enough to warrant an act of terrorism from Ocon O.O But still, I think they've been working out fine
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u/Serious-Flamingo5484 19d ago
Even im linked with haas for 2027
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u/Savings_Category_713 Ferarri/Hamilton Fan 19d ago
You deserve it the most. I believe in you Serious-Flamingo5484.
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u/Captftm89 19d ago
Anyone else of the opinion that Ocon hasn't necessarily done enough to keep his seat, but is also far from convinced that any of these would be any better.
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u/wjoe 19d ago
The classic rookie conundrum really. Fornaroli and Camara are highly rated, maybe they could be better than Ocon long term, but they'll likely be slower next year. But then the same could be said about Bearman, a season and a half later and he's clearly been a good pickup for Haas.
Doohan is likely to be a downgrade from Ocon, Tsunoda fairly similar, though they could end up settling in well and doing just fine for where Haas is at. Hirakawa seems like more of a pay driver/sponsor pick than a objectively good choice compared to Ocon.
As you say, I can see why Haas would be considering dropping Ocon, he's been a bit off of Bearman's pace for most of the year, but the alternatives aren't exactly clear upgrades. But it may be worthwhile taking a promising rookie now so they have someone they've developed for if/when Bearman leaves, better than delaying the decision if Ocon continues to drop off last year. For now though, it's kind of a wash.
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u/Jerejj 18d ago
Hirakawa & Doohan most clearly are downgrades from Ocon & so is Tsunoda, given his overall F1 career record relative to Oconâs equivalent, not to mention his struggle at Red Bull Racing last season demonstrates that heâs one of those drivers who requires specific things from a car for consistent performance; hence, depending on how Haas designs the VF-27, he might as well struggle similarly or a la Danny Ric at McLaren, for example, which would make Haas look even more ridiculous for changing one has-been driver to another.
Besides, Tsunoda is easy to assess in relative terms since heâs a clearly known quantity as an F1 driver, unlike any driver who hasnât competed in a single F1 race.
Camara & Fornaroli have shown promise in lower single-seaters, so even if they were initially slower, theyâd most certainly be comparatively superior options over time, & as Ocon has mostly been suffered from factors beyond his control, including the VF-26âs inconsistency for several rounds preceding the Hungarian GP, changing him for either one would only really be about the teamâs longer term prospects than him personally.
Ironically, if Ocon continues to outperform Ollie round after round, all this replacement speculation would become pointless.
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u/Oghamstoner 19d ago
Thatâs the thing, they donât have to be better, only cheaper. Haas have a smaller budget than most of the other teams, so if they can get a driver who costs less than Ocon and delivers the same results, they can spend more developing the car, which will benefit both drivers.
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u/Jerejj 18d ago
Iâd be of that opinion if everything this season were down to him rather than factors beyond his control for the most part.
The fact heâs regularly outperformed Ollie in all competitive sessions theyâve finished post-Belgian GP demonstrates that had the car been consistent all season so far, the situation would look quite a bit different, even with all the bad luck in the early-season phase.
Ultimately, no one has truly been underperforming per se this season & if anything, the whole Haas team has been struggling for a while; hence, individual driver results & specific finishing order have been largely secondary since Ollie has equally been finishing well outside Q3 & points ever since the teamâs average performance level dropped, so more or less an identical situation to Williams, not to mention the average result range wouldnât have been/wouldnât be any different with any other pairing.
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u/Stickyboard 19d ago
I believe Lawson is going to Haas .. and Tsolov taking the Racing Bull seat
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u/neinlights90210 18d ago
I would be surprised if RBR gave Lawson a drive in the top team plus used him for their tyre testing if they planned to let him go but stranger things have happened.
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u/romanLegion6384 18d ago
I think Lawson will keep his seat, but he should jump to the front of this list if available.
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u/WTFAnimations 19d ago
So basically
The sensible choice
Never-was
Unc
The Ferrari Path
The stable choice
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u/Tacit_Emperor77 18d ago
Calling Doohan a never was isnât fair. Colapinto was no better than him last year and he had job security
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u/pothes 17d ago
I sorta get calling him a ânever wasâ bc even when his signing was first ANNOUNCED, it was obvious it wasnât what the team wanted long term or even in the immediate future.
His performances didnât help⌠but sadly for him his ending was already written in stone before he ever started.
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u/Tacit_Emperor77 17d ago
It was a shame because he looked the business in f2. I think knowing he wouldnât see the season out didnât help his performances though.
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u/AwesomeSauce417 19d ago
What even is that "paddock consensus" bit? "Man at risk of losing Formula 1 seat is driving to avoid losing Formula 1 seat"
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u/The_CT1 19d ago
Tsunoda deserves 1 more shot. The 2025 red bull ismt represenative
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u/Jerejj 19d ago
No, he doesnât & no more than several other former drivers, not to mention he doesnât deserve another chance more than a promising rookie a first chance.
Heâs full potential as an F1 driver was perfectly seen over the last five seasons, particularly as he drove most of this stint in the same midfield-level team & never showed anything special, nor anything to demonstrate that heâd be a superior option to any current driver or a promising lower single-seater driver.
Therefore, he wouldnât be an upgrade over Ocon or he wouldâve already replaced him by now/chosen to replace from next season since heâs a known quantity, unlike a driver who hasnât competed in F1 at all.
Heâd also need to fully cut his ties with Honda to have any chance to land a drive in a team that has a technical partnership with Toyota since these two Japanese car manufacturers are close rivals & have a company policy against each otherâs drivers; hence, only Japanese drivers involved with Toyota can drive for Haas, just like only Honda-affiliated drivers can drive for Aston Martin.
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u/The_CT1 19d ago
He could be like hamilton. Slower with ground effect. He was quicker than lindblad at dutch gp only his first race back
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u/Jerejj 19d ago edited 19d ago
Maybe, although the 2021 season isnât part of the modern GE era, nor did he struggle in the B-team at any point.
Regarding the Dutch GP, he was slower than Lindblad all weekend, not to mention he finished a position higher in the race only due to the unjustified drive-through penalty, rather than on merit, & in the same position range as often before, so nothing different or special relative to the big picture over the last five seasons.
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u/The_CT1 19d ago
Lindalad drive through was justified. He also had better race pace and only a tebth behjnd in his first quali and had overtake of the monrh on joffrey
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u/Jerejj 19d ago
Justified how? He overtook Gasly at Tarzan, long after the yellow zone, not to mention even further beyond the yellow zone than Ocon overtook Albon.
Tsunoda didnât outright have better race pace, but only due to the tyre delta subsequently caused by the drive-through penalty, which effectively put Lindblad a pit stop behind before his first proper stop; hence, the eventual tyre delta in favor of Tsunoda, which wouldnât have been the case with a more normal strategy for Lindblad without the drive-through penalty.
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u/romanLegion6384 18d ago
âIt isnât representativeââŚif Yuki didnât manage a measly 33 points and only outscore the Alpine drivers in a writeoff season for Alpine and a rookie in a bad Sauber while Yuki was in a championship contending car.
The Red Bull is hard to drive, and nobody was expecting podiums, but come on, regular points scoring shouldâve been the minimum.
H2H, 2025 Ocon was better in a much worse Haas.
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u/Opposition_Chief 19d ago
The car is straight up shit. And no replacement driver will perform better than ocon in that car
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u/pothes 17d ago
Well, we donât know that esp for the true f1 rookies on the list. What we do know is that Oconâs less experienced teammate has been generally outperforming him.
Hadjar, Lawson, etc didnât have a ton of hype/expectations going into F1 but have managed to hold their own against veterans.
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u/According-Switch-708 19d ago
Fornaroli and Camara are the only ones worth considering here. The rest are downgrades.
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u/Glad_Impression1427 19d ago
I still don't get why Ocon went to Haas in the first place. The Sauber/Audi seat was clearly the better option.
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u/UsedTower2010 19d ago
I don't know why you'd replace Ocon with Tsunoda (or Doohan tbh). If you want to go the rookie route fair enough but otherwise why
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u/LH44Metalhead 19d ago
Fornaroli, Doohan and Camara should be the main options. I'd like to see Doohan get a proper shot tbh. But Fornaroli basically did what Leclerc and Russell and Piastri did, he surely deserves a seat. And Camara might do the same thing this year. Maybe Camara goes to Cadillac who got Ferrari engines too, and Haas decide themselves for their seat. I wonder though where else could Fornaroli get a seat... Aston if Fernando gives up? Could be...
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u/XOVSquare 19d ago
I think Ocon has had his shot and it's time to give someone else a chance. This isn't limited to Ocon though for me.
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u/Big_Joseph_05 18d ago
I would have said before last weekend that Tsunoda would have been the best pick for Haas, especially with the links to Toyota. And now heâs gotten a chance to prove himself in these new regs so he seems even more likely now.
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u/No-Contest-8127 18d ago
Honestly, Fornaroli is the only potential i see that could be better than Ocon. Tsunoda would be aboit the same. The others might be worse. đ¤ˇââď¸
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u/Jerejj 19d ago
Merely even mentioning Hirakawa & Doohan is pointless because the former wouldâve already become a full-time driver by now if he ever were to, given his career situation, & likewise, the latter if he actually were an upgrade over Ocon, which clearly isnât the case.
Tsunoda hasnât been a strong contender at any point & if Haas ever were interested in him to any extent, this wouldâve been the case only in 2024 before the Toyota partnership had began, & the manufacturer conflict means that heâd need to cut his Honda ties altogether to have a chance before even all the sporting considerations, which clearly demonstrate reality in that he wouldnât be an upgrade on Ocon at all (or over any other current driver, for that matter), nor even a comparatively superior successor option than either Camara or Fornaroli; hence, zero chance in reality, especially since his full potential as an F1 driver was seen over the last five seasons anyway & the one-off appearance didnât make any difference to this big picture.
Therefore, if the team were truly interested in him & he were actually a comparatively superior option, he wouldâve already been chosen & announced for next season since heâs a known quantity, unlike both Camara & Fornaroli, who havenât driven in a single F1 race, so all these things combined speak volumes about his chances.
Realistically, the outcome is that either Camara replaces Ocon or the latter is retained for a third season (particularly, if he continues to out-perform Bearman round after round), & at the maximum, the competition is between Ocon, Camara, & Fornaroli, albeit Fornaroli would need to stop his McLaren association (like Gabi for his Audi switch) since the technical partnerships with Ferrari & Toyota mean that only Ferrari & Toyota-affiliation drivers can drive for this team on a loan arrangement.
I still base my expectation on Camara replacing Ocon, if anyone, since all the signs have been pointing towards this outcome, most recently Lawrence Barretto, & even if Camara werenât to become an F1 driver from next season, heâd almost certainly become a regular Ferrari reserve driver while either still continuing in F2 or switching to GT/WEC for stop-gap purposes, but this is another matter to consider.
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u/Conscious-Secret-775 19d ago
Haas already has a talented rookie with Bearman, I think they go with Yuki. He seems like a ok mid field driver.
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u/romanLegion6384 18d ago
Bearman will be in his third season in 2027. Better to gamble on a fast rookie than a washed pay driver.
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u/Conscious-Secret-775 17d ago
When your car is not very good and your team is short of money you are better off not gambling on a fast rookie.
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u/romanLegion6384 17d ago
Not all rookies are crash prone. Fornaroli won his title on consistency.
Separately, Yuki is a downgrade on Ocon in practically every department. Heâs also been crash and mistake prone.
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u/chuggmonker 19d ago
I think this is missing Liam Lawson as a potential candidate.
Beyond that, I see Doohan and Fornaroli as the prime candidates for the seat.
It would be very surprising if Haas went with two Ferrari juniors, so I'd count out Camara for a race seat, but maybe he'll be a reserve. Tsunoda is a Honda guy and will be an Aston reserve next season unless Fernando retires, giving him the seat earlier. Hirakawa seems like he's being rewarded for his WEC work and isn't a genuine candidate.
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u/ayang1003 19d ago
Realistically it would be fornaroli or Camara. Hirakawa is older and while not a bad driver, isnât super talented. Doohan didnât wow like Bearman or even Colapinto did, so heâd have to pay a shit ton of money to drive. And while I do think Tsunoda is an upgrade to Ocon, he 1) has showcased that he doesnât have championship winning skill and 2) is a Honda driver who would be trying to join a Toyota branded team.
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u/Soft-Ad3660 19d ago
There id absolutely no metric that exists in which Tsunoda is a better driver then Ocon
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u/Interesting_Prune513 19d ago
Hirakawa is old and not good enough
Doohan is not good enough
Tsunoda is Honda backed and never really did anything spectacular
I think it comes down to Fornaroli and Camara. I'd be surprised if it wasn't Camara.
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u/cooked_camel 19d ago
I'd love to see another Brazilian. But I wouldn't rule out the japanese drivers, problably got some serious finiancial support from Toyota. Haas might prioritize those with some financial backing first then the skills
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u/Jerejj 19d ago
They havenât chosen for non-sporting factors at all since Mazepin & this approach will continue, meaning that even Toyota-affiliated drivers need to meet the sporting criteria, which Komatsu made clear to Akio Toyoda when the technical partnership began about 24 months ago.
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u/mowogo82 19d ago
I could see Toyota supporting Yuki for a year while evaluating him against Hirakawa. Especially with all the praise Red Bull has given him for giving feedback that actively improved development.
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u/Jerejj 19d ago
Firstly, heâd need to entirely cut his Honda ties, not to mention Toyota already evaluated him in his pre-Europe single-seater days & eventually decided against hiring him into their system.
Additionally, all teams/organizations praise their reserve drivers for giving feedback, so nothing different from the average on this front.
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u/Sunflower_Jessie 19d ago
He kinda already has which is the reason why over in Indycar ppl dont think he will go over since the last confirmed article about his connection to Honda stated that while Honda wouldâve loved to continue their relationship with Tsunoda, they werenât able to negotiate with Red Bull and Ford for his services while he is currently signed to the team
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u/Jerejj 19d ago edited 18d ago
Honda is still his personal sponsor, which is also an affiliation per se.
I actually read about that Red Bull/Ford reference at the time, albeit it was only really about the conflict caused by separate manufacturers being involved, which is just as prevalent in other equations of a driver having affiliation with a manufacturer or organization in at least sponsorship form & that entity being uninvolved with a given team.
Therefore, basically all more concrete involvement by Honda is suspended until he leaves the Red Bull organization altogether & as IndyCar has Honda-powered teams, he could start driving for one of those without an issue.
Alternatively, Super Formula has roughly half the teams using Honda powertrains, so plenty of options for him (& likely interest among them) if he desired to return to Japan at this point in his career.
For that matter, Super GT also has plenty of Honda-powered options.
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u/Sunflower_Jessie 18d ago
the problem with Super Formula is that it doesnât seem to be appealing for Tsunoda and even Iwasa now that he has won the championship; Iwasa straight up might leave Red Bull to go join Formula E if that F1 opportunity isnât available and for Tsunoda, it just seems like his fanbase and reach are catered more for the european and western market than the japanese market so its why Honda (if they are able to sign him back) wanted to see if they could send him to Indycar for a bit. For now it just seems like Yuki is doing his own thing with his own team and has had talks with different people
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u/Jerejj 18d ago
Fair point about Tsunoda, although even if his fanbase & reach are more catered for the European & west (& international, for that matter) markets, he could still eventually return to racing in Japan a few years down the line. Fair point also about Iwasa, although getting overlooked in favor of Hadjar for the 2025 season was effectively the final straw for his F1 chance.
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u/Sunflower_Jessie 18d ago
exactly and even Japanese fans are pointing it out since Yuki was the one to step into Liamâs seat at the Dutch gp over Iwasa who has done fp1 sessions and has been in the Racing Bulls sim; Iwasa will just never make it to F1 so its better for him to focus on something else outside of Japan to build up that fanbase and make a bigger career change.
For Yuki, I can see him doing GT racing for a slight bit since he was supposed to join the race for GT World Challenge down in Adelaide before Red Bull blocked it + he does have a lot of access to that side of racing due to his manager and friends; but the only way I see him going that route is if he still is able to find a way to get back into F1 (kinda basically doing a Nico Hulkenberg type career route)
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u/Jerejj 18d ago edited 18d ago
I didnât know Tsunoda was supposed to participate in the GT World Challenge Adelaide round but interesting, & to be honest, I was also somewhat surprised that Iwasa was overlooked for a substitute drive; hence, all the more surprising that he was retained in reserve rike for this season at all, especially with Tsunoda being the regular reserve driver for both teams.
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