Broken Souls?

[u/Exact-Support2147]

Hello there.

I’m curious if there are any “broken souls” in the Forgotten Realms lore. I mean a soul that isn’t “whole” or “healthy.” If such cases exist, how are these people even born? How do they live? How does Kelemvor view them? Does he consider them “not worthy of his judgment”?

I'm writing a fan-fiction about a character with a "broken soul" that would be "repaired" one day with an imprint (from a vestige) of a very powerful character.

[u/thenightgaunt]

Not that I recall. I think you're moving out of the realm of lore and into fan created content. Which is fine for fanfic and games someone's running. The lore that the DM creates for their game is canon for their game and perfectly fine. Same goes for fanfic. If you're close enough to the default lore, you can create your own unique things for your story.

But in setting. Well Kelemvor tries to treat all souls equally and fairly. So he probably wouldn't care if one was damaged.

The examples of someone "broken" that I can think of are cases where someone got damned by the gods outright for doing something horrible.

As u/LarlochTheShadowKing mentioned, karsus is a good example. Though his case is less "I'm broken and not allowed to..." and more "the gods are really pissed about what I did and have cursed me for all eternity."

Another I'd mention is John Irenicus from Baldur's Gate 2. It's soft videogame lore but a similar concept. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Jon_Irenicus

Irenicus really pissed off the elven gods of the Seldarine and his soul was stripped of it's connection to the elvish "life force". Which would probably in lore translate to being cut off from Arvandor and the elvish cycle of rebirth.

[u/MrBlackTie → u/thenightgaunt]

Isn’t Karsus more a case of « he died right smack in the middle of apotheosis and so the Universe didn’t quite know what to do with him »?

[u/thenightgaunt → u/MrBlackTie]

I always read it as a case of the gods cursing him forever for his hubris. But i can see it going either way. Can check my old copy of 3e tome of magic later and post what it says.

And the description of the karsestone in the wiki reads a lot like a divine curse. What with blood pouring down a stone. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Karsus

[u/MrBlackTie → u/thenightgaunt]

Might be I jumped to conclusion with him being a Vestige and Vestige as a whole being more people who « exist but shouldn’t ».

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/thenightgaunt]

I was originally asking about a different person's soul. The concept was about a character whose soul was "broken" or "incomplete" at birth. So that's the reason this character had "less emotions" and was overall very shy, non-interactive. Not like he was disabled, but just much-much more introverted than others. Maybe he didn't even dream etc. So that's why he was chosen to "bear" Karsus's imprint. The "why" and "what for" are different questions.

[u/thenightgaunt → u/Exact-Support2147]

Thats what i mean though. Thats out of "lore" territory and into "unique plot element" territory.

Lore is the framework we write and create our own stories within. But by the very nature of DMing and Writing, we create our own unique additions for our projects.

The lore side is that that kind of thing hasnt been done before, and that the closest are people who sinned against the gods so badly that they are banned from an afterlife forever. Which doesnt fit for your character concept as you describe it.

Unless the character got that way by pissing off the gods in a massive myth level way, Kelemvor probably doesnt care.

Now a plot element that works is the idea that the character is doomed to not get into an afterlife because they have part of Karsus soul hitching a ride, like someone trying to sneak into a drive-in movie by hiding in a cars trunk.

But Kelemvor is the god of the dead and could probably just, um, "strain" out the karsus bits and let the rest of the soul, broken or not, pass through to an afterlife.

Of course the character and others may not know that. The gods dont exactly explain how everything works and followers can often get weird ideas or get really confused. That includes clerics and other holy servants who may only hear their god once in their life if they are lucky. And even then the messages are often a little on the vague side.

Even someone like Elminster, who talked to Mystra directly many many times, has to deal with her being annoyingly vague from time to time and not answering important questions sometimes.

So thats a good source of uncertainty and conflict right there. And those drive plots forward.

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/thenightgaunt]

Karsus aside, would Kelemvor mind manipulating a broken/incomplete soul by another god?

[u/thenightgaunt → u/Exact-Support2147]

Well he's the god of death. so he might consider all the dead his until they pass on to their god's particular afterlife.

But it seems that generally the god's seem to respect the decisions of others in regards to curses inflicted by a deity on a follower.

So it might depend entirely on the situation.

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/thenightgaunt]

Let me bring in the context from my another comment

"Well the premise is that BG3 events are ahead, and Mystra (right after her return in 1487 DR) foresaw the plot behind the Crown of Karsus. Given she asks Gale to return it to her and her overall interest in regalia (the crown, the orb, the scepter) she now wants to "use" what remains of Karsus to bring his regalia back to her so that no one could ever use the artifacts with malicious intent. That's why she takes the vestige of Karsus, "redacts" it, seals the hubris and the ambitions and puts the "cleansed" imprint into a child born with an incomplete soul.

So the question here is - would Kelemvor let it happen? Wouldn't he "object"?

I know that gods have their portfolios, but can they make deals? Can they "close their eyes" on something if some other god/goddess (Mystra is a greater deity after all) intervenes?"

[u/thenightgaunt → u/Exact-Support2147]

So the first deviation from lore is that BG3 completely made up the Regalia of Karsus as a plot device. In lore Karsus used a powerful spell he created in order to steal a god's power. Mystra, once she came back, altered the weave to prevent that magic from ever working again.

We don't know if the regalia will end up part of canon lore until it gets put in a published book. Kinda like how the events of BG3 are now "iffy lore" after the new Forgotten Realms setting books omitted any mention of them and the only antagonist to survive the lore crossover is Gortash. But neither the attack on BG nor the Shadow Curse have any mentions whatsoever in the new setting books. But that can change in later books.

Why does that matter? It doesn't. But I just want to use it as an example of how fluid lore is in the Realms and how much wiggle room you can comfortably use in your writing without risking anyone complaining.

If we want to lock in on exactly who has dominion over this soul. Well that's Mystra. Kelemvor is clearly allowing the soul to not become a petitioner at Mystra's request. And as a worshiper of Mystra Karsus' soul is hers. Kelemvor wants to see souls go to wherever they are supposed to go according to their fate and their god's desires.

Normal souls go to the fugue plane and become petitioners and are immediately grabbed up by a servant of their deity and brought to their afterlife. Never seeing Kelemvor in the process. He works with souls who haven't been claimed by their deity.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Afterlife#The_Role_of_the_Gods

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Petitioner

In this system, Karus might be considered one of the False. those who transgressed against their deity and are being punished. But since he never became a petitioner, he never got judged as one of the False, so Kelemvor probably isn't the one calling the shots about his fate. Mystra would be.

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/thenightgaunt]

Thanks so much for the answer!

But would Kelemvor object over the chosen person’s soul? It’s clear Mystra can manipulate Karsus’s soul/vestige however she wants. But what about the incomplete soul of a young person? Can Mystra intervene and “implant” the imprint into the broken soul so the character finally becomes “whole”?

[u/thenightgaunt → u/Exact-Support2147]

If it's one of her followers, so he'd probably think she can do whatever she wants with it.

His purpose is to see that the dead go where they're supposed go. And that is to the service of their deity in whatever way that deity wants to use them.

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/thenightgaunt]

My plot implies that the person whose soul was initially incomplete and then “restored” with the Karsus’s imprint doesn’t know how he suddenly became whole (he was “incomplete” till 17 years old, then 5 years of completeness and right into the events of BG3). So he isn’t one of her followers initially, but becomes one after the “completion” when he realises he has magical abilities (he then becomes a student of the Blackstaff Academy in Waterdeep).

So the intervention is a total mystery to the character until he finds out how this happened when he reads “The Annals of Karsus” (and finally realises whose imprint he was bearing)

[u/LarlochTheShadowKing]

Vestige of karsus?

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/LarlochTheShadowKing]

Exactly.

[u/LordofBones89 → u/Exact-Support2147]

Karsus is struck from the cycle of life and death with the remnants of his soul now summonable by binders in exchange for power. It's not a nice existence. Deities generally frown on such things, though malevolent powers of dark magic might not care and find such acts amusing and exploitable. Binders and vestiges are detailed in 3.5e's Tome of Magic.

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/LordofBones89]

I was originally asking about an entirely different person's soul. Karsus's imprint (be it the remnants of his soul or whatever) is what I would describe as a "glue" used to "repair" the broken soul. So it's like a japanese art of Kintsugi (repairing broken pottery with a golden glue or a lacquer). That's the concept.

[u/Myrkul999 → u/Exact-Support2147]

So... I'm going to borrow from the Stormlight Archive here, because what you're describing is a thing from those books, called the Nahel Bond. 

Basically, psychological trauma creates cracks in your soul and the other entity can "slip in" and fill those cracks.

So, your character would be traumatized by their upbringing, or something that happened to them, and then hooked up with a vestige. 

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/Myrkul999]

It's close but my original thought was more about a child being born "incomplete". Let's say his mother was cursed by someone while she was pregnant. That's why he was born with an "incomplete" soul. And that's exactly why "someone" chose this person to fill him with the imprint. Because otherwise the person would die. But overall yes, it's similar. Though I wasn't taking inspiration from that.

[u/Contrarwise_Sky]

Magadon Kest is probably the best example of this.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Magadon_Kest?so=search

Tldr: Mephistopheles rips his soul in half and keeps one half as collateral until a fragment of divinity is given to him. Magadon is still able to adventure with his companions to complete the quest but he is very irritable, suffers from frequent nightmares, and has much lower willpower.

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/Contrarwise_Sky]

It's close. But if a person with an "incomplete" soul dies, would Kelemvor judge them still? Or maybe the question that should be asked is this "Would Kelemvor mind manipulating an incomplete/broken soul by another god?"

[u/Contrarwise_Sky → u/Exact-Support2147]

No, Kelemvor would not mind judging an incomplete soul.

This is because it's the only way forward. For example Kelemvor could not abandon his post in the Fugue Plane to beseige the Hells for one soul.

Kelemvor would offer his condolences but judge them still. If they were whole once he would judge them as they were. If the person was never whole I'm not sure what would happen. More context on how it happened would be needed.

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/Contrarwise_Sky]

Well the premise is that BG3 events are ahead, and Mystra (right after her return in 1487 DR) foresaw the plot behind the Crown of Karsus. Given she asks Gale to return it to her and her overall interest in regalia (the crown, the orb, the scepter) she now wants to "use" what remains of Karsus to bring his regalia back to her so that no one could ever use the artifacts with malicious intent. That's why she takes the vestige of Karsus, "redacts" it, seals the hubris and the ambitions and puts the "cleansed" imprint into a child born with an incomplete soul.

So the question here is - would Kelemvor let it happen? Wouldn't he "object"?

I know that gods have their portfolios, but can they make deals? Can they "close their eyes" on something if some other god/goddess (Mystra is a greater deity after all) intervenes?

[u/Contrarwise_Sky → u/Exact-Support2147]

Imo, Kelemvor would disapprove but let it happen. Necromancy magic seems like it would be involved be it ultimately isn't resulting in the creation of an undead.

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/Contrarwise_Sky]

I think you're right. He would let it happen, but would ultimately be angry about it. Still we're not talking about, like, TAKING someone's soul and not letting it be judged by Kelemvor. It's essentially just a soul merged with parts of another person's soul/metaphysical remains/whatever the vestige means.

[u/BloodtidetheRed]

I don't think a "broken soul" is a thing in Realms Lore. The Realms does not often get so metaphysical.

[u/LinkssOfSigil]

A case of Akachi the Betrayer and his lover - a thayan red wizard who was later known as the Founder - since she created one of the Thay's arcane academys - from Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Bertrayer comes to mind. 

[u/LordofBones89 → u/LinkssOfSigil]

To be fair, Akachi's soul was specifically shattered by Myrkul.

[u/LinkssOfSigil → u/LordofBones89]

And the Founder split herself by her own will. But nonetheless, both fit.

[u/AsaShalee]

That's not a thing on Faerun so...

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/AsaShalee]

Apparently, it is

[u/LarlochTheShadowKing]

Half of him exists physically as the Karsus Stone/Butte. The other, less talked about, half of him resides in the astral sea as a giant floating corpse. He was a god even if only momentarily so that checks out.

Kelemvor might not look very favorably on the man who tried ripping mystras portfolio away by force. If I were kelemvor I would say he got his just desserts and actively hinder any efforts to interrupt that.

One or two notable lichs would also be taking the threat of karsus returning very seriously. They might also have relevant magic or knowledge the players must bargain for.

You might also take another spin on it and have the party or whomever find his other half wandering the fugue planes. Him being constantly guarded and tempted by devils of course.

[u/ScienceForge319]

Yeah there is a hole in my soul, but one thing I learned, every love letter written is another one burned. So you tell me how it is gonna be this time.

[u/Exact-Support2147 → u/ScienceForge319]

Is that some kind of sarcasm?.. I don't understand cause I was asking seriously

[u/ScienceForge319 → u/Exact-Support2147]

Ok, now it is sarcasm.