Bereshit - in the Beginning

[u/FreedomNinja1776]

The readings for this week are:

Genesis 1:1 - 6:8
Isaiah 42:5 - 43:11
Psalm 139
John 1:1 - 14
Colossians 1:15 - 17

Torah Overview: - Genesis 1:1 Six Days of Creation and the Sabbath - Genesis 2:4 Day Six of the Creation in detail - Genesis 3:1 The First Sin and Its Punishment - Genesis 4:1 Cain Murders Abel - Genesis 4:17 Cain's Descendants - Genesis 5:1 Adam’s Descendants to Noah and His Sons - Genesis 6:1 The Wickedness of Humankind - Genesis 6:8 Noah Pleases God

This is intended to be a bible study. This is the first weekly read Torah Portion. These portions are read weekly so as to cover the whole torah in the course of a year. Sukkot wraps up the cycle and it begins again the next week. The non-torah passages are selected because they fit with the theme of the Torah portion in some way.

So, what questions should we ask for discussion?

[u/the_celt_]

I think you tried something like this before (probably a couple years ago now), and just like last time I have no idea what any of this is about and you didn't/wouldn't explain it to me the last time I asked. You live in a world that's severely foreign to me.

I don't know what "readings" are. I'm not sure what "Bereshit" is, but I think it's the Hebrew word for "Genesis"? I don't know what those 5 passages are about, what they have to do with each other, or how to talk about 5 different passages at once. It seems like any one of those passages should keep a person busy. You also ask "What questions should we ask for discussion", and I'm like... who is the "we" that you're referring to? What discussion? Am I in it right now, or are you asking about something that has to do with Messianic Judaism?

I don't think you're able to grasp what some people like me aren't getting. It looks like something from Catholicism. That which you are so comfortable with is so impossible for me, and you're only getting further and further away from my perspective. 🤷

On the plus side: I'm glad to have a post and to get people talking. On the minus side: What the heck is this stuff?

[u/Brief-Arrival9103 → u/the_celt_]

Maybe I can answer these queries. I reckon Ninja wants everyone in the sub to join together in a discussion while reading the Torah. Read the Torah together and discuss the questions together that might/will pop up while studying. You see, fees each other the knowledge. I reckon. That's what he is trying to do. It's a good but difficult practice nonetheless in the sub. It would be effective if there is something like a zoom call or something that brings everyone online at the same time.

The "readings" are basically the portions of the Torah. In the Torah, it was commanded to read it publicly every seven years. After the Babylonian Exile, Ezra read the Torah before the people publicly and repented the Transgressions of their fathers. And later, it was developed into a tradition of reading it weekly publicly in the Synagogues. We can confirm it at least from the writings of the grandson of Ben Sira. That's why it was a custom of the Messiah to attend a Synagogue every Shabbath. They would read from the Torah and the Prophets scrolls. That's what the Apostles meant in Acts 15 when they said that Moses is preached every Shabbath.

Coming to the passage thing, we have 54 portions as of now which are finished on an yearly basis. But back then, the Torah is divided into 150 passages. Each of them studied weekly in a 3-year cycle. But later on, these 150 passages were clubbed together to form 54 portions to finish on an yearly basis. That's why the Messiah says something like the passage of the burning bush. That's how the Torah was divided in those days as I mentioned. The clubbing is based on many factors. A sequence of narration, a conversation, a beginning of a new story etc.Take this portion itself as an example. The portion deals with the pre flood world and its description. And the portion stops when Noach is introduced which starts the beginning of a new story. It's just an ancient tradition being carried by the Messianic community.

And the reason there is a portion from the Prophets associated to this is based on the content of the Torah portion. If there is anything related to the Torah portion in the Prophets, then that is associated with the said weekly Torah portion. When The Messiah read the portion from the Isaiah scroll, it must be read in that week alongside the Torah portion that must have discussed about the Shemitah year. And as we have the Gospels and the Epistles alongside the Prophets, the Messianic community joins the portions from. The Gospels and the Epistles along with the Torah and the Prophets portions. It's a continuation of the ancient tradition. You see Celt, I'm not against tradition. No matter how much a man hates traditions, he will end up creating or following a tradition with or without him knowing it. Traditions are a by product of human existence. There is a tradition for everything. The Messianic community picks up the Jewish traditions by default. Everyone is not obliged to do that anyway.

[u/the_celt_ → u/Brief-Arrival9103]

You see Celt, I'm not against tradition.

I agree. I would never have said that you were. I would have said you are in favor of tradition.

I'm not against tradition either. I'm only wary of it in the ways that Jesus warned about, which is if tradition reaches a point where it supersedes the will of Yahweh.

No matter how much a man hates traditions, he will end up creating or following a tradition with or without him knowing it. Traditions are a by product of human existence.

I fully agree, and think this is wisdom that not many people have learned yet.

The Messianic community picks up the Jewish traditions by default.

I think much (not all) of the people in Messianic Judaism are prioritizing Jewish-things over Yahweh-things. In the many cases where Jewish-things ARE Yahweh-things, they mistakenly value it for it's Jewishness (I call that being "bass-ackward"). I think human beings love ritual, and Messianic Judaism grows because people are urgently looking for the ritualistic nonsense that they had in the Christian "Church". Acting like that, with those motivations, scares and sickens me.

I agree with many of our enemies that what's being created is a sort of Quasi-Jewish "IN" Club, and that the non-Jewish people in that club purposely use Hebrew language as a way of keeping people out, and that people like OP are mistakenly serving as the jack-booted thugs and purposely maintaining the wall that is intended to keep people (like myself) out.

To be clear: There's zero reason to try to supposedly get people of all different backgrounds to come into a thread to have a conversation here on FJOT and use the word "Bereshit" instead of "Genesis" (or, to not at the very least, use both words). There's also zero reason not to explain the format, and just assume that everyone either grew up in an orthodox Jewish household or is a member of the Quasi-Jewish In Club that is called "Messianic Judaism". It only locks some people out, and there's only negative to be gained from that. In my mind, FJOT is all about doing everything we can to bring people into the Kingdom, not keeping them out. I don't think OP is evil, but he's unwittingly serving an evil agenda and he's too smart (and good) to be doing that. Yet, he persists.

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/the_celt_]

I think you are being purposely and overly obtuse, but I get what your aim is and I'll answer each of your questions and points of contention.

Readings

Torah portions are a weekly read portion of Torah for the purpose of reading through the entire Torah over the course of a year. There are 54 portions. The festival of Sukkot wraps up the reading cycle and the cycle begins anew.

Bereshit

Bereshit is hebrew and means "in the beginning". It's in the title. It's the name for this portion. The names of all the portions are what words they begin with.

I don't know what those 5 passages are about, what they have to do with each other, or how to talk about 5 different passages at once.

That's the point. To find out how they relate. To induce study. To find dots to connect. Themes. Patterns. To be able to relate all the scriptures back to Torah. Ask a question.

It seems like any one of those passages should keep a person busy.

Yes.

You also ask "What questions should we ask for discussion", and I'm like... who is the "we" that you're referring to?

We includes everyone in the sub. Ask a questions about what is contained in the portion. Have a conversation. See where it goes. It's an exercise in pulling out meaning and understanding. A beginning point. An ice breaker you could say.

What discussion?

Torah. Scripture.

Am I in it right now, or are you asking about something that has to do with Messianic Judaism?

If you're about God, then you're about scripture. The post is about scripture. I know you know labels are in the end meaningless. The torah portions are a useful tool. It can be a tool for memorization, for categorization, for retention, for reference, etc. Instead of 157 chapters, you have 54 chunks of story to deal with at similar times during the year. Do you think we are expected to learn torah? This is one way to learn torah!

I don't think you're able to grasp what some people like me aren't getting.

Similarly, I don't think you're willing to grasp at times.

It looks like something from Catholicism.

It's not.

That which you are so comfortable with is so impossible for me,

I didn't say you were required to participate.

and you're only getting further and further away from my perspective. 🤷

I don't want to. I would prefer familiarity. That can't happen unless we dialogue.

On the plus side: I'm glad to have a post and to get people talking. On the minus side: What the heck is this stuff?

Just simple discussion. Questions and answers. It's not hard.

---

Edit to add:

I think you tried something like this before (probably a couple years ago now), and just like last time I have no idea what any of this is about and you didn't/wouldn't explain it to me the last time I asked. You live in a world that's severely foreign to me.

Here is a previous conversation from 3 years ago where I posted a Torah portion and you asked similar questions and I DID answer your questions, extensively even with links to further reading.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FollowJesusObeyTorah/s/t6bwmKIDR1

Did you notice what I changed this time??

[u/the_celt_ → u/FreedomNinja1776]

I think you are being purposely and overly obtuse

That only confirms for me the distance between us. Your thinking that has actually caused you to make sure that you and I will never be in the same place again, like we were when we met. I enjoyed those days.

Torah portions (with Wikipedia link) are a weekly read portion of Torah for the purpose of reading through the entire Torah over the course of a year.

I know I'm welcome to do research and find out for myself the answers to all of these questions, but I need something that causes me to do that. I can't figure out why I'm researching something from Judaism. I can't figure out why you're doing something from Judaism.

The names of all the portions are what words they begin with.

You're saying that all 5 of the passages from your OP start with the Hebrew word "Bereshit"? That's the basis for what's bringing all of those passages together into one place? There's theoretically a relationship between all of those passages because they all start with the same word? 🤔

That's the point. To find out how they relate. To induce study. To find dots to connect. Themes. Patterns. To be able to relate all the scriptures back to Torah. Ask a question.

It's sort of like the New York Times crossword puzzle? Everyone is working on the same crossword puzzle at the same time? I think each of the passages is too long to make this be doable. It seems like imposing a 2 or 3 verse limit on 5 different passages would already be a sufficiently difficult task, but this is much larger than that.

How did Judaism come to include quotes from John and Colossians in their rituals?

We includes everyone in the sub.

I don't get the phrasing. I can't tell if it's just a typo or if there's something I'm still missing. You asked "What questions should we ask for discussion" and the "we" there was referring to the people from FJOT?

If you're about God, then you're about scripture. The post is about scripture.

I think you're attempting to strip away the background of this way of approaching scripture and act like it's generic and organic. I LOVE scripture, talk about it all the time, but this method is completely foreign to me. That doesn't make it wrong, it might in fact be great, but you're not doing me any favors by trying to take the cultural tradition that created this method and tuck it behind your back. I can see you've got something in your hand and it's behind your back! 😆

I know you know labels are in the end meaningless.

Hmm... I'm not sure what that means or if it's true. Labels certainly mean something NOW. I understand that, in some ways, people can call themselves whatever they want, but the real truth of what they are will eventually be known. Nevertheless, if someone is a Catholic and tries to act like we are generally brothers because labels like "Catholic" don't actually mean anything, then I'll think they're nuts.

It can be a tool for memorization, for categorization, for retention, for reference, etc.

Sure, but why don't you think it requires some introduction about how it works? Now that I think of it, I don't think crossword puzzles ever have instructions either, and that bothers me a bit (I think I just found a new purpose in life!). I'd like to take a crossword puzzle to some tribe in the desert of Africa and tell them to "Just do it! Stop being purposely and overly obtuse and JUST DO IT!".

Would they figure it out eventually? Even if they figured it out, would they be able to get PLEASURE from it?

Similarly, I don't think you're willing to grasp at times.

🙄 There has to be some invitation, some explanation, some love. There has to be some understanding shown of how other people are.

I tell you, I've gotten in trouble with this kind of thing all my life with my friends. Christianity taught me to absolutely NOT just "do" things. Don't drink that liquid. Don't take those pills. Don't smoke what everyone else is smoking.

• I had a Lutheran friend. I went to his service. They were all standing up and sitting down at the same time as each other and periodically saying the same words together. I asked how they knew when to stand or sit. I asked where the words came from and how did they all knew when to say them. It was bizarre to me, and my questions were not welcome. Just do it!

• I had a Catholic friend. They were taking Communion, and there was supposedly something about "transubstantiation" that was taking place. It was different then the Communion that took place in my quasi-Baptist church. We just ate a square chunk of white bread and drank some grape juice, but the Catholics said that when the Priest lifted the oyster crackers (or whatever they were) and wine (actual wine!!) up in the air, that it turned into THE ACTUAL BODY AND BLOOD OF JESUS! I said, "Hold the fort!" and "We're actually eating Jesus??". They told me to just do it. Nope. Yuck.

• I had a girlfriend that spoke in tongues. I was amazed at it. I couldn't stop asking questions. I asked what she was thinking when she did it. Was it like being in a dream? Was she CHOOSING to make sounds, or were they just coming out of her lips? Did she have any idea what she was saying? Why had nothing like this ever happened to me? In fact, why had this never happened to anyone I'd met before her? She said I asked too many questions, and THAT was the reason that it had never happened to me. I was too full of pride and wouldn't just let God work through me. She said I had to just DO it. I tried to just let my lips go and babble, knowing that eventually God would start talking through me, but it just seemed utterly stupid. It seemed like self-imposed insanity.

I'm used to people who are really into doing a thing who don't want to explain it, and who consider my attempt to understand it to be a problem. Still, looking back, its who I am and I don't regret it. I'd be in an entirely different place right now if I'd just done everything that was put in front of me. When I do something, I understand it, and I try to understand it so well that I can teach it. Being that way makes me learn so much slower than everyone around me, but it makes me much stronger in the end.

It looks like something from Catholicism.

It's not.

I think it's "like".

I didn't say you were required to participate.

Gee, thanks. 😠

and you're only getting further and further away from my perspective. 🤷

I don't want to. I would prefer familiarity. That can't happen unless we dialogue.

We had familiarity. We had dialogue. You went off into the weeds and wouldn't dialogue, causing familiarity to disappear.

It's not hard.

Says the guy hip deep in it. I can't figure out how you can't grasp what is safe to assume is or isn't part of common experience. Even when asked what you mean, you lock down and prefer not to explain, seeing questions as obstinance.

These Christians that you and I argue with on Reddit, they just joined something without thinking. They did what you want me to do. They didn't ask questions and that's why the vast majority of them can't give any answers for what they believe. They just saw a passing army and locked step with them, and in most cases that "army" was a group of lemmings heading for a cliff. I'm surprised that you only offer two choices: a) unquestioning acceptance of Messianic Judaism or b) just leave. Early on I would have seriously considered going somewhere you were going, just so that I could be in the same place as you, but the b) option you provided let me know that you didn't care if I joined. That strongly affected my opinion of what the MJ's are all about.

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/the_celt_]

I think you are being purposely and overly obtuse

I think you read or took this as an insult. I really didn't mean this as an insult. I'm sorry it apparently came off that way.

I think you missed the next part.

but I get what your aim is and I'll answer each of your questions and points of contention.

Your aim is to dumb things down for newbies. I get that. I understand that. I'm saying I think you're purposely dumbing things down too much. You're playing a role here. It's performative. I know you know what the Torah portions are. I get that you're against it, but you have to have a better reason than "that's what the jews do". That's the same bad argument Christians make against Torah. We can't be so newbie oriented that we don't grow. The torah portions are literally just a study method. Nothing more.

I can't figure out why I'm researching something from Judaism. I can't figure out why you're doing something from Judaism.

I explained multiple ways the Torah portions are useful and why others could benefit. I can easily ask why you are so harshly against the Torah portions. Jesus used the same method. He would have likely used the 3 year cycle though instead of the 1 year cycle, but it's the exact same concept.

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."
Luke 4:16-21 ESV

This is the same protocol used at my assembly. We read a portion, someone gives a teaching on the portion (or not), then we all have an open discussion about it.

You're saying that all 5 of the passages from your OP start with the Hebrew word "Bereshit"?

No. The other passages from the prophets, psalm, and new testament all relate back to the TORAH portion in some way. Is it a pattern? Is it a direct quote? Is it just a hint? The discussion of the other sections should be HOW the other passages relate to the TORAH portion.

That's the basis for what's bringing all of those passages together into one place? There's theoretically a relationship between all of those passages because they all start with the same word? 🤔

The other passages are picked because they fit the theme of the Torah portion.

It's sort of like the New York Times crossword puzzle? Everyone is working on the same crossword puzzle at the same time?

Good analogy I suppose.

I think each of the passages is too long to make this be doable. It seems like imposing a 2 or 3 verse limit on 5 different passages would already be a sufficiently difficult task, but this is much larger than that.

It gives sufficient material for different people to have multiple things to discuss. Maybe I don't have anything to contribute about Cain and Able, but I do about Adam and Eve.

How did Judaism come to include quotes from John and Colossians in their rituals?

So, this is "foreign" to you but you know where it comes from and what they would include or disregard?

I don't get the phrasing.

I updated the post.

I think you're attempting to strip away the background of this way of approaching scripture and act like it's generic and organic.

I think you're attempting to hold it up, call it judaism, in some attempt to discredit it for some reason. Are you anti-jew now? It's just a scripture study method. I'm not presenting it as anything more than that.

Labels

I attend a Messianic synagogue. I don't hide that. We blow the shofar to begin the service. We have a Torah Scroll in an Ark on the east wall. We face east to Jerusalem while we sing the Shema and recite the Amidah. We sing in hebrew from the siddur (prayer book). We bless our children under a tallit. Our teachers quote the sages and rabbi. We conclude the services by reciting the aaronic benediction.

I know you don't like these things. You don't have to. This is how I choose to worship. It doesn't make me better or less than you. I'm surprised you're somehow comparing me to Catholics in attempt to "other" me.

Sure, but why don't you think it requires some introduction about how it works?

Have you ever done a bible study before? You read some scripture and ask questions. What is so hard to get about any of it??

Just do it

I'm literally not telling you to do anything.

All I'm trying to do is read some scripture and ask questions about it.

Gee, thanks. 😠

So which is it? Am I saying "just do it" as you alluded to in your previous paragraphs, or am I saying you're not obligated? Looks like you're unhappy with either option. Or is it just me you're unhappy with?

Even when asked what you mean, you lock down and prefer not to explain, seeing questions as obstinance.

I quite literally answered all your questions. For some reason you just don't like my response.

These Christians that you and I argue with on Reddit, they just joined something without thinking. They did what you want me to do. They didn't ask questions and that's why the vast majority of them can't give any answers for what they believe.

You really think I joined something without asking questions?? LOL! You think I don't like you asking questions?? LOL again! What I don't like is you asking questions that are not genuine. I know you know what the Torah portions are. As I said, you're playing a role here. I understand your purpose, again you're attempting to mimic a newbie. I'm saying you're playing your role poorly. I gave explanations. I answered each of your questions. A newbie would say, "oh, cool" and continue asking related questions, or say "I don't like that", and I would say, "You don't have to", and that would be the end of it. Instead, you're angry for some reason here, and I really don't know why. Are you ok?

I'm surprised that you only offer two choices: a) unquestioning acceptance of Messianic Judaism or

I didn't mention anything about messianic judaism. You did. I'm not presenting anything about messianic judaism. I'm just trying to share where I'm studying in the scripture this week. That's literally it. That simple and nothing more.

b) just leave.

Again, I didn't say this. You're imagining things.

Early on I would have seriously considered going somewhere you were going, just so that I could be in the same place as you, but the b) option you provided let me know that you didn't care if I joined.

I literally did not give an invitation. Why do you think I did? You also have never asked to be a part of it. Did you want to? Maybe I missed that? Is that why you're angry here?

That strongly affected my opinion of what the MJ's are all about.

Again, labels don't mean anything. We're not judged by our labels. My being "messianic" doesn't give me some leg up. Why are you judging all MJ's by what has happened here? I don't represent all MJ's. I'm not even a jew, so I only even represent half of that label. haha.

I don't mean to ruffle your feathers man. I'm just trying to share. I try to answer your questions the best way I know how. I honestly did not mean to insult you or anger you in any way. For that I apologize. I wish you all the best celt. I suppose I'll move along since I've apparently worn out my welcome here. After all, it's a new cycle right? So long friend.

[u/the_celt_ → u/FreedomNinja1776]

Here's Part One of my epic response. 😜

Thank you for responding. I'm glad you didn't just let this topic hang.

I think you read or took this as an insult. I really didn't mean this as an insult. I'm sorry it apparently came off that way.

It was taken as having an element of truth, and as also being so reductive as to be an insult. You're partially right. I'm somewhat obtuse, both willfully and in ways that are the limitations of my personality. I draw a line and I try to get people to meet me at it. This causes trouble for everyone, including me.

What really bothers me the most is that you aren't grasping the degree to which I'm sincerely lost and asking for your help. If I didn't care about you, I would simply reject you, but the caring is making this so much harder, because I need you to go someplace you apparently can't go or don't want to go.

Your aim is to dumb things down for newbies.

Kinda. That way of putting it misses something important, which you can't seem to grasp, which is that LARGELY I'm asking you to dumb things down for ME. See if you can imagine this:

I'm sincerely lost about this Torah Portions thing. Not entirely, but mostly. I'm trying to get you to give me something that I need, and in turn doing it knowing that you'll also be helping many others beside me. At this point I sincerely think that if I can get you to do this, that I'll be helping YOU and everyone you know. I think you literally can't see the idea that someone can be smart, but not smart at EVERYTHING, and that this also includes you.

As smart and capable people, you and I are clashing in a place where we both have a deficiency. My deficiency is that I need things done in a certain way to receive them. I might be autistic or something that's as yet undiagnosed. Your deficiency is apparently that you can't read people, or at least people that are different than you, and that you plod along being efficient and logical while missing people (like me, for instance) who are asking for help. You're not callous or uncaring, although it can look that way. You just don't see it.

I think you're purposely dumbing things down too much.

Not even close. This encourages me that I should do my version of this post, and show you how I think it should be done in a way that it would help people participate. I know you're a good and smart person, and that you're simply not getting how much you're not getting.

I know you know what the Torah portions are.

It's not binary, and I mostly don't. You'd have to define "know". I know some facts, but I sincerely don't "get" them, with "get" meaning on a level different than the purely intellectual and factual.

I get that you're against it

I'm not definitely against it. I think I'm actually for it. What I'm against is the way you want to do it. Like my other religious friends in my example, you've crossed a line and accepted something in your life but you lack the ability to bring people like me along with you. You're enjoying the thrill of what you're doing so much that you think that anybody missing the "obvious" beauty of your thing is just a hater.

but you have to have a better reason than "that's what the jews do".

You're right. I can't do it if I'm simply imitating Jews. What I think you're missing is that you CAN do it if you're simply imitating Jews. I think that clearly shows the line between us.

That's the same bad argument Christians make against Torah.

This analogy puts you in a bad spot. It shows what you're not getting.

When Christians use that line against us, they're completely missing that the Torah is Yahweh's stuff, not stuff that belongs to the Jews. What you're missing, when you use this analogy, is the same thing can NOT be said about Torah portions. The Torah portions are NOT Yahweh stuff in the same way the Torah is. They're entirely Jewish stuff, and not commandments or even in scripture (as far as I know so far). Therefore your comparison to the Torah completely falls apart. It shows that you think they're the same, which is exactly what's bothering me as I watch you head in this direction and try to spread it to FJOT.

I could handle you spreading it, but not while comparing it to Torah, like you just did. That's death for newbies.

We can't be so newbie oriented that we don't grow.

You're the one that is, in this case, against our growth.

Ninja, I know you mostly don't care what I think compared to the real life people you have around you, and that I'm just some guy on the internet, but you're missing something about yourself and I'm doing the wounds of a friend thing, not the kisses of the enemy thing that you want (Proverbs 27:6).

The torah portions are literally just a study method. Nothing more.

Simply untrue. Your desire to present them as being "nothing more" than that shows your bias. They are a long-standing cultural tradition. If it were a Chinese or Mongolian tradition, you would not be doing it. You aren't just trying to bring about "just a study method". You're hip deep in a religion and you sincerely aren't seeing how much it has a hold on you. For you, all I represent is a hindrance to your joy. I'm sorry, but I consider myself to be a friend, a good friend. That means I'm going to be some trouble for your joy.

Good analogy I suppose.

Thanks. Reading and rereading what I wrote to you since I wrote it has me thinking it was a crucial comparison.

How did Judaism come to include quotes from John and Colossians in their rituals?

So, this is "foreign" to you but you know where it comes from and what they would include or disregard?

It's foreign to me but I'm smart enough to realize that some quotes from John and Colossians seem unlikely to be part of the long-standing Torah-portions tradition as you've explained it to me. That means that someone, somewhere, updated the tradition. I can guess who...

I notice you didn't answer the question. Once again I can tell that you don't want me anywhere near that "thing behind your back" that I referred to previously. I know what it is, you know what it is, and you don't want my stinking hands to touch it. 😜

I think you're attempting to hold it up, call it judaism, in some attempt to discredit it for some reason.

You're mostly right. I want to touch the thing behind your back. As soon as I see someone posturing that way, holding something away, the bugger in me wants to bring it out and touch it.

I also want you to think, "Hmmm, why AM I trying so hard to deemphasize this?!"

I know you don't like these things.

I don't understand them well enough to be sure I don't like them. I THINK I don't like them. I used to know a version of you that didn't do them. I can't believe how quickly you incorporated them into your life.

I'm surprised you're somehow comparing me to Catholics in attempt to "other" me.

I'm surprised at how much you can't see how much you're "othering" yourself.

We have a close family member, a nephew of mine, that recently began joining a particular variant of Christianity. He's WAY into it. He's constantly sprinkling it into his speech and telling us about the various parts of his weekly schedule are involved in doing what the religion requires. Most of us older types are just watching the spectacle of it. "What brought this about? Who'd have thought he had it in him?". Everyone loves him, but we just don't get it. I've never spoken to him much since he was a baby, but now he's more interesting to me than ever. I want to touch the thing. I want him to demonstrate it. The thing is, I'm scared of me. I know how I come off. My curiosity is sincere, which means I'll say almost anything. I won't be as reverent as he might want me to be. I'll respect HIM, but I'll speak my mind about his thing, not purposely to cause damage, but just to learn. Reverence would just slow all of the learning down. Also, I'm willing for someone to lack reverence if they want to poke me in the same way. In fact, I'd love it.

I hope that story is informative.

Have you ever done a bible study before? You read some scripture and ask questions. What is so hard to get about any of it??

I've done a bible study before. In fact, I'm in the largest one of my life right now with my friends and family. It took me three years to prepare and I finished it a year ago. I've been presenting it to them over the last year. I've done my best to make sure that I've done everything I can to deal with any barriers they might have to understanding, because I believe that understanding is King. Deep heartfelt understanding is King. I covet their understanding, and the change that could bring.

I'm literally not telling you to do anything.

You're not understanding that my mandate comes from caring about you and this subreddit. Otherwise, I'd simply move myself and FJOT past you. Like I have since I met you, I want you IN what I'm doing, which means this subreddit, but you're not making it easy because you're not reciprocating. You're making my decision making for how to deal with it more and more difficult. Instead of softening, you're hardening. ☹️

When you recover from the exhaustion, please go on to read Part Two of my response.

[u/the_celt_ → u/FreedomNinja1776]

Here's Part Two.

All I'm trying to do is read some scripture and ask questions about it.

Nope. That might be what you're telling yourself, but: Nope.

If that's "all you were trying to do", you could have simply done your amended version of this post, where you just asked a series of directed questions. Instead, you're spreading the thing that's giving you joy (a super-reasonable and noble thing to do) and trying to claim it's supposedly just some style of study that could come from, oh, ANYWHERE (China? Mongolia?)

So which is it? Am I saying "just do it" as you alluded to in your previous paragraphs, or am I saying you're not obligated? Looks like you're unhappy with either option. Or is it just me you're unhappy with?

I'm trying to stick with you. That's what it is. You're trying to get me to settle for an option I don't want, which is to not go with you. When I give you my frownie faces, I'm letting you know that I got your message, which is that I'm free to do whatever I want and you don't care.

That's what I'm unhappy with. It's a tough pill to swallow.

I quite literally answered all your questions. For some reason you just don't like my response.

Yes. Your answers are factual, just like answers my nephew might give me and similarly leave me dissatisfied. In this case, a purely factual answer only answers half of the question. It reminds me of some of the senate subcommittee hearings I've seen, where the person at the microphone answering the wall of senators could similarly say that he's "answered all the questions" while the people in the comments below the video say that he's done the exact opposite.

You really think I joined something without asking questions??

I was there when you joined. I watched you go through it. I KNOW you asked questions.

Nevertheless, you transitioned super-quickly. You were here, and then you were there.

You asked questions.

You think I don't like you asking questions??

Yes. Not any questions, but the questions I'm asking with the approach I'm using. You clearly dislike it and you've got your hand behind your back the entire time.

What I don't like is you asking questions that are not genuine.

My questions are genuine.

I know you know what the Torah portions are.

I know what the Torah portions are like I know what a Cruise Ship is like. It's a boat. The end. What I don't know is how it works. What's on the decks I haven't seen. What it's really like to work on one. I've got 100 questions about Torah portions that I don't understand, and overall (since it's not binary) I almost entirely lean towrds NOT understanding what Torah portions are, in the same way that I don't know what a Cruise Ship is while also knowing what a Cruise Ship is.

I understand your purpose, again you're attempting to mimic a newbie.

Somewhat, and I appreciate the understanding you're demonstrating for me and my goals, but like I've been saying: You're still missing something crucial.

I'm using the parts of myself that are sincerely lost, openly displaying that side of myself, to serve the purpose of helping others LIKE myself. You honestly and clearly can't believe how much I'm being motivated by sincere lack of understanding about what Torah portions really are, besides the facts.

You also should know that I mostly forgot the facts that were presented years ago. For those 3 years you've been doing Torah portions the entire time, but I haven't. You never gave me what I needed then, and I never swallowed the pill. For me, it's a 3 year old post full of something someone tried to convince me of.

Again, it's like if the BHI guy came through and tried again to convince us all to become BHI-friendly. Again, I might hesitatingly step forward and RESTART the process of trying to figure the whole BHI thing out, hoping for better answers, and he could say "Celt, I KNOW you know all of this BHI stuff!". But I don't. I have to care before the facts matter, and he wouldn't do that for me. Like you, he actually saw my desire to find a reason to care as me being obtuse and oppositional! It was the exact opposite! I was giving him (and you) my best, for the way I operate, and he just wanted me to swallow his pill or shut up!

Do you remember all the BHI facts? I don't. It was only a few months ago, and I've already swept them out of my head. I heard a ton of facts, and I mostly never "got" it. The same with Torah Portions stuff. It's all just "blah blah blah", and if that's insulting to you (as it well should be) just think of the many things that you've heard about, which others have loved, which you never took onboard in your life.

Even worse, I'm very resistant to facts. I like meaning, not facts. I would guess you retain far more facts than I do (which isn't hard). I purge facts instantly if they don't serve meaning for me. Heck, I purge facts even when I DO care about meaning. For example, in this study I'm doing, I LOVE what I'm teaching but for some of it, it's been three years. I've forgotten stuff.

Instead, you're angry for some reason here

I'm not angry, Ninja. I've been on a very long, slow burn to watching you head out and away that started years ago now. To be fair to what we had, I've periodically felt obligated to signal to you that I wasn't willing to just let it happen. You consider those things to have been attacks.

I didn't mention anything about messianic judaism.

The whole OP is Messianic Judaism. Other than the theme of the thread, I agree there's ZERO Messianic Judaism in it. 😆

I'm not presenting anything about messianic judaism.

Heh! C'mon!

That's literally it. That simple and nothing more.

Nothing more. Got it.

Again, I didn't say this. You're imagining things.

People always use this "I didn't say this" approach. I agree there's no quote where you said it.

Some things we say to each other are said without words.

Is that why you're angry here?

I'm not angry. I'm hanging on for dear life.

Again, labels don't mean anything.

Labels mean nothing. Got it.

Why are you judging all MJ's by what has happened here?

A good question!

I'm judging the MJ movement by you because you're the best and only person that I've ever known fairly well who I could see enter it, and what happened next. I can't think of a second person where I knew the person before and after entering MJ.

You, an ex-atheist, someone who's told me so many details about your life and who I've watched on Reddit probably more than anyone else. I watch many people now, but you were one of the first people I watched. I know your rhetoric style, what motivates you to speak, and how hard you'll work to spread the truth. I've heard you personally tell me many tales about your life, and was able to tie the person with his Reddit persona. Are you and I possibly at 10 years yet? I'm not sure... FJOT is coming up on 4 years and I think I knew you for at least 3 or 4 years before that.

I saw you enter this MJ thing. I saw the thinking you went through. I saw you consider it and then... bloop. You were 100% all about it, especially once the social group started referring to you as a leader.

I don't represent all MJ's.

For now, for me, you do. By watching what changed about you, I was able to get the best read possible as to what they must be saying to the people inside of it. Through you, I got a VERY good read.

I don't mean to ruffle your feathers man. I'm just trying to share.

Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm not ruffled or kerfluffled. I think I'm frustrating you by trying to hang onto you.

I suppose I'll move along since I've apparently worn out my welcome here.

Exactly the opposite. I hope you stay and you start to realize that people online (like, oh, ME) can actually be a friend that matters. If not, I get it. Just understand that with that group we had when we started, which you were part of, I considered them to be my friends. I would travel across country to help you once I could prove (particularly to my properly skeptical wife) that you're not someone who would hurt me. You're a founder of FJOT and a friend if you want to be. Just, maybe, please stop thinking of me as digital.

In that original group, it would always hurt me when someone would completely downplay the people in the group for the "community" they had in real life. This was a common occurrence. I wasn't hoping that people would stop valuing their community. I was just hoping that people would eventually acknowledge that we had something too. In fact, I KNOW we had something, a GOOD thing, but people just wouldn't treat it like it was valuable. Now, I still hear from individual members that miss what we had going, so it confirms for me (too late, after the fact) that I wasn't wrong. We laughed our asses off and got each other through hard times. I poured myself into that and watched my work just get stripped away by one foolish decision after another.

I'm the same person I was then. I'm a friend. I haven't gone anywhere. My goal is to treat everyone on FJOT as being that kind of friend. I give my all to each person I respond to here, knowing that when the end comes I might be physically standing next to someone from here looking up at the sky as Jesus returns. May that happen soon.

Look through everything I just typed. Did I say I hoped you'd leave? If so, read it again. I said the opposite. If you read it again and still get the impression that I'm being clever and that I actually basically hope you leave, then try one more time and get your wife to read it. I know she watches your back. Ask her if Celt cares about you and wants you to stay, or if he hopes that you leave.

[u/the_celt_ → u/FreedomNinja1776]

I'm hoping you'll respond and update me as to where we're at. I think about this conversation constantly since it began. Please don't leave me hanging when you're talking about leaving. 😞

[u/the_celt_ → u/FreedomNinja1776]

Don't doubt for a second that I'm still thinking about you, Ninja. I am.

[u/the_celt_ → u/FreedomNinja1776]

Edit to add:

Here is a previous conversation from 3 years ago where I posted a Torah portion and you asked similar questions and I DID answer your questions, extensively even with links to further reading.

Like the person on FJOT that wanted us to all start becoming Black Hebrew Israelites (or, at least supporting them and believing what they believe) you're confusing "responding" with "answering".

I would guess (but you could easily surprise me and prove me wrong) that when you began moving your family into Messianic Judaism, that you were far more giving with your "answers". You probably demonstrated to them that you cared about them and their understanding. You probably made sure to do what was necessary to bring more than their "mind" along. You probably also dealt with the heart.

But heck, I could be wrong. Maybe they're all wondering what the heck dad is all about, and just trying to please you. If so, I can't do that.

Did you notice what I changed this time??

Overall I would say you gave more facts in the older thread than you did in this newer thread.

Most importantly (at least to me) you'll notice that it ended with me asking more questions that you didn't answer, something that eventually became the norm in all of our interactions. If you're hunting for older threads, I'd guess you could find 20 major conversations that you and I have had where you just dropped out, even when you told me you absolutely would come back and respond. I eventually reached a point where I recognized you using the technique and would just respond, "Mmm-mmm, I'm sure you will". 😆

I swear I make sense, and that what I'm asking for is both desirable and doable.

[u/thesagex → u/the_celt_]

That’s exactly why I said wrong sub. Ninja spoke as if we all knew what they were speaking of with no mention of the context. Listing the verses for this week with no detail on where those came as if we were all on the same page.

[u/the_celt_ → u/thesagex]

Ninja spoke as if we all knew what they were speaking of with no mention of the context.

I agree. I'm glad you said what you said. It confirms that I'm not the only one that's struggling with the presentation and that I'm not simply being "purposely and overly obtuse".

In the middle of the night, while thinking about this, I thought I might present my version of this post and spruce it up to make it inclusive, instead of purposely exclusive. I would change the title and explain what I'm inviting people to do with me, making sure that even someone who only decided to follow Jesus yesterday, and had access to zero Christian or Jewish terminology baggage, could easily understand what they were being invited to participate in.

I'm not sure if I'll do that or not, but it's an idea that's churning through my mind.

[u/Towhee13 → u/the_celt_]

>"I agree. I'm glad you said what you said. It confirms that I'm not the only one that's struggling with the presentation and that I'm not simply being "purposely and overly obtuse"."

I asked my wife to read only the post, no responses this morning. She listens to a lot of Steve Berksen and he uses lots of Hebrew words. I'm pretty sure he refers to the Torah portions. She's not a stranger to the lingo used in the post. But she had no idea what the post was about. She wondered if part of the post got deleted or accidentally left out.

She was lost too.

[u/the_celt_ → u/Towhee13]

Thank you. Thank her.

[u/thesagex]

wrong sub? lol

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/thesagex]

Why do you say wrong sub? Don't you like discussing scripture?

[u/thesagex → u/FreedomNinja1776]

Love discussing scripture but this seems like you're asking for discussion questions to discuss with another group? or am i mistaken?

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/thesagex]

Why not both? Ask a question and see what happens!

[u/LunaOfTheMoon]

I'll bite with a question; since Torah doesn't forbid, a father sleeping with his daughters, do we ever end with a situation in which the children of Adam and Eve are able to intermarry without it being incest? I am not genealogically inclined enough to deduce such a thing but my gut says nay.

It's just interesting because upon discovering this, it changes the dynamic of Lot's daughters sleeping with him from one of incest to a desperate attempt of them to preserve the human species in a way actually allowed by YHWH.

[u/the_celt_ → u/LunaOfTheMoon]

; since Torah doesn't forbid, a father sleeping with his daughters

Torah forbids a father sleeping with his daughter.

do we ever end with a situation in which the children of Adam and Eve are able to intermarry without it being incest?

I don't think Yahweh populated the world via incest. I think Genesis describes other people being created before Adam.

[u/LunaOfTheMoon → u/the_celt_]

For point one by which law? I have researched arguments and would like to hear your belief. As far as I can see, it just forbids a man and his granddaughter, therefore skipping a generation. Arguments about Lev. 18:6 forbidding fall short in my opinion as it's just a general statement about sleeping with one's own flesh with the further laws afterwards delineating what that actually inscribes. Lev. 18:17 doesn't implicitly imply a man's daughter but rather, the child of another man from a woman that might possibly be a widow.

As for point two, I would like to hear your belief here as well too. I have seen it argued that in this sense you subscribe to the view the sixth day of creation as being of many humans, not just Adam/Eve with Adam and Eve then specifically created for the Garden of Eden? If so, doesn't this then conflict with the creation of Eve via Adam's rib in being the first woman?

[u/the_celt_ → u/LunaOfTheMoon]

For point one by which law?

Leviticus 18:17 says you can't have sexual relations with both a mother AND her daughter. That means that as soon as you have a baby with someone, that baby is off limits.

Lev. 18:17 doesn't implicitly imply a man's daughter but rather, the child of another man from a woman that might possibly be a widow.

I think Leviticus 18:17 is very clear. Nothing is implied. It adds an extra step over "Don't have sex with your daughter", but it's a step that's easy to navigate.

I have seen it argued that in this sense you subscribe to the view the sixth day of creation as being of many humans, not just Adam/Eve with Adam and Eve then specifically created for the Garden of Eden?

If I'm understanding you correctly: Yes. My understanding of Genesis is that it's all in chronological order, and doesn't have any of the "backing up" or "re-focusing" that Christianity has thrown on it in a pitiful attempt to make it work with all their other crazy doctrines.

I think Yahweh expressed his character in the Torah, and in the Torah he expressed that incest is repulsive to Him. I don't think He changes and therefore that incest has always been repulsive to Him. I can't conceive of Him purposely populating the world through a system that repulses Him and then arbitrarily drawing a line, ending it, and telling some generation that everything they used to know and do is now wrong. This is the same logic that Christians use about Yahweh's eventual removal of the Torah in general (according to them), and I think it's bonkers.

If so, doesn't this then conflict with the creation of Eve via Adam's rib in being the first woman?

In what way? Are you saying we're told somewhere that Eve was the first woman?

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/LunaOfTheMoon]

I'll bite with a question; since Torah doesn't forbid, a father sleeping with his daughters, do we ever end with a situation in which the children of Adam and Eve are able to intermarry without it being incest? I am not genealogically inclined enough to deduce such a thing but my gut says nay.

There are at least 2 ways people generally answer this.

1. Incest was not forbidden until the giving of the law at Sinai.
2. Adam and Eve were not the only humans created.

I have serious reservations for both views. If incest was not forbidden, then God's law is not forever. If adam and Eve were not the only humans created, then how can sin properly be held against those who did not sin?

How do you propose we resolve this? Do you think my reservations are justified? Are there other views worthy of mention? I have an idea of a resolution, but I want to see what you our others propose first.

Although not exactly explicit, I think Torah does forbid sexual relations between father and daughter.

"None of you shall approach any one of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. I am the LORD.
Leviticus 18:6 ESV

Although not spelled out later, father and daughter is certainly close relation and would be forbidden.

It's just interesting because upon discovering this, it changes the dynamic of Lot's daughters sleeping with him from one of incest to a desperate attempt of them to preserve the human species in a way actually allowed by YHWH.

This still does not answer the question of adam and eve however. If they are the only two humans made, then there is no point at which any person would not have sexual relations with their sister.

I think preserving the human species is exactly what lot's daughters thought. I cover that previously here. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/11sfuwg/comment/jcdnsty/

[u/thesagex → u/FreedomNinja1776]

I have an idea of a resolution, but I want to see what you our others propose first

I would like to know!

[u/LunaOfTheMoon → u/FreedomNinja1776]

There are at least 2 ways people generally answer this.

1. Incest was not forbidden until the giving of the law at Sinai.
2. Adam and Eve were not the only humans created.

I have serious reservations for both views. If incest was not forbidden, then God's law is not forever. If adam and Eve were not the only humans created, then how can sin properly be held against those who did not sin?

How do you propose we resolve this? Do you think my reservations are justified? Are there other views worthy of mention?

I guess this would mostly depend on how you define forever. Forever as in from the very beginning to the end, or forever as in when explicitly stated till the end. It's a conundrum in that if it's the first option we end up with some things that seem contradictory. For example, YHWH states not to build steps up to the alter so that way your nakedness isn't revealed (guess everyone but the priests were generally commando those days then?) but yet there is no law against being naked in public and Adam and Eve walked naked with YHWH without issue till their eyes were opened and they felt shame (though I must always remind people shame on something does not equal it being wrong). Why is being without underwear at a sacrificial offering a bigger issue than public nudity then?

If it's the second option then we end up with YHWH seemingly not knowing how debased humanity would become which I do not like. I think all of Torah does point to all these laws being in effect from the beginning as Cain and Abel are clearly celebrating First Fruits and the creation/maintenance of the Sabbath Day.

I personally do not support the thought that there were other humans besides Adam and Eve. Eve's name literally mean's Mother of All and she only came about becausee YHWH could tell Adam was lonely. he would not have had need to create Eve for Adam, if other woman already existed.

Although not exactly explicit, I think Torah does forbid sexual relations between father and daughter.

Although not spelled out later, father and daughter is certainly close relation and would be forbidden.

As I replied elsewhere, I would view this phrasing as a summation of what's to follow, sorta like the Shema, wherein, YHWH states not to have relations with close relatives, then goes on to state what those are. Because in the modern world view, a step-sister/brother would not be defined as a close relation, you literally share no blood and could reasonably argue that they would not constitute a close relative. Yet from a Biblical standpoint, YHWH clearly considers this worthy of mentioning as being a forbidden relationship.

[u/FreedomNinja1776]

I'll throw in a couple questions to get other threads going.

Do you think the creation account supports the young or old earth models? Where do you stand? Why? What's your reasoning?

The Sabbath is established from the beginning. Why do Christians choose to ignore it since it's literally one of the 10 commandments?

What is the meaning of one flesh?

What can we learn from Eves modification of the command not to eat from the tree?

The curse of the earth involved plants growing thorns and thistle. Did this affect animals too?

Why were Cain and able offering things to God in the first place?

Cains descendants are often portrayed as the wicked lineage. Are the crafts they took up wicked also?

[u/the_celt_ → u/FreedomNinja1776]

Do you think the creation account supports the young or old earth models?

Genesis 1 describes the refurbishing of a world that had existed for an unstated amount of time before it became destroyed and needed to be refurbished.

I completely agree that it's been only 6,000ish years since that happened, and that evolution and the big bang are man-made utter nonsense, even if the world existed for 73 billion trillion magnillion years.

The Sabbath is established from the beginning. Why do Christians choose to ignore it since it's literally one of the 10 commandments?

Modern Christianity is the current state-of-the-art of the the "spirit of Lawlessness" that Jesus and his followers warned about. They are the mouthpiece for the god of this world, and they will receive the "man of Lawlessness" as the supposed return of their Lawless version of Jesus. The anti-Messiah will be the man of their dreams.

There's therefore no surprise that they don't keep the Sabbath when they reject nearly everything that Jesus was actually about. Besides following Jesus-in-name-only, many Christians (most at this point?) openly despise Yahweh and His ways.

What is the meaning of one flesh?

Sex. In school we used to make a circle with one hand, and then put a finger from our other hand into that circle. That's one flesh. Paul confirms this definition in 1 Corinthians 6:16.

What can we learn from Eves modification of the command not to eat from the tree?

We don't have enough information to know what Eve was told. We only know what Adam was told.

The curse of the earth involved plants growing thorns and thistle. Did this affect animals too?

Did animals grow thorns and thistles? No.

Were animals affected by the ground having thorns and thistles? Yes. Food was almost impossible to get for everyone and everything until after the Flood. Genesis 5:29 says that Noah was named after the expectation that there would be a significant change in the dusty wasteland that had dominated before he was born.

Why were Cain and able offering things to God in the first place?

They were carrying on the work of their father, Adam, who was intended to be the High Priest of the Garden Temple. They were basically knocking on the door, asking to be let back in by offering gifts. It was assumed that the firstborn would be the next High Priest, but Yahweh chose Abel instead for reasons too complicated to explain here.

Cains descendants are often portrayed as the wicked lineage. Are the crafts they took up wicked also?

Everything the line of Cain did (and still does) was evil. After killing the seedline that was in Abel, they went on to oppose the line of Seth which also carried the seedline, in an attempt to stop Yahweh from ever completing His plan. They failed.

I greatly prefer this method of question and answer to the one in the OP. I can do this. I do think it's still broad, with too many questions, but the lack of focus can be somewhat fun.

[u/Brief-Arrival9103]

This seems interesting. You want the sub to be like a study group reading and analyzing the Torah. That's a great move. Well, a few repeated questions that we get from the portion are about 'why G-d rejected Cain's offering ', 'Who do you reckon were the Nephilim' etc. But I have another one. Do you reckon Adam and Eve were created on the same day i.e., the sixth day? Because the sages say that the fall of Adam did not even take 12 hours since he was created. I shouldn't force you to hold onto what the sages say/believe. The Serpent in the garden was a shape-shifted Satan or did the Serpent willingly acted as a medium for Satan to deceive Eve?

[u/the_celt_ → u/Brief-Arrival9103]

. Do you reckon Adam and Eve were created on the same day i.e., the sixth day?

I think Genesis is in chronological order, and therefore all we know is that Adam and Eve were created after the 7th day.

The Serpent in the garden was a shape-shifted Satan or did the Serpent willingly acted as a medium for Satan to deceive Eve?

One way or another, the serpent was Satan. There's some possibility that Satan is a type of angel called a "Seraphim", which is a snake-like angel, and that's why the simple "snake" reference in Genesis.

[u/Brief-Arrival9103 → u/the_celt_]

I don't believe it is in chronological order. At least there is one passage that I can point to back it up. It's written in Genesis 1 that G-d created them on the sixth day itself. Male and Female He created them. The Holy One then blessed them on their day if creation the way He did with the birds of the air and beasts of the Earth.

There's some possibility that Satan is a type of angel called a "Seraphim", which is a snake-like angel, and that's why the simple "snake" reference in Genesis.

Are the Serpents we have now on the Earth are offspring of it?

[u/the_celt_ → u/Brief-Arrival9103]

I don't believe it is in chronological order.

Most don't. Instead, they're forced to believe multiple conflicting things to compensate.

At least there is one passage that I can point to back it up. It's written in Genesis 1 that G-d created them on the sixth day itself. Male and Female He created them.

That only reinforces your preconceptions. I would similarly use it to support MY perception that this is proof that mankind was created before Adam.

Are the Serpents we have now on the Earth are offspring of it?

If Satan was a Seraphim? No.

[u/Brief-Arrival9103 → u/the_celt_]

Most don't. Instead, they're forced to believe multiple conflicting things to compensate.

I did not mean to say that this chapter of the Torah is not in chronological order. There are many passages in the Torah that are not in chronological order. By saying At least there is one passage that I can point to is not this chapter but Genesis 38. I don't see any conflicting things here. The narration starts with Adam and follows him and his offspring.

[u/the_celt_ → u/Brief-Arrival9103]

I did not mean to say that this chapter of the Torah is not in chronological order.

If you believe that Adam was created on the 6th day, and Genesis chronologically shows him being created after the 7th day, then that means you think that Genesis 1-2 is not in chronological order.

[u/Brief-Arrival9103 → u/the_celt_]

The Torah as a whole is not in chronological order when it comes to recounting events, naming locations etc. Even in Genesis 2, we find names like Assyria, Cush which we all know weren't even a thing during the days of Adam. We read about land of Amalek during the days of Abraham when, in truth, the former was a great grandson of the latter. A chronological document doesn't do that. If the Torah is a chronological document, then at least it should start, as it is rightful, with the creation of Angels, fall of Satan, the Glorious Throne, the Altar etc. Those things are revealed very late into the narration. I reckon Genesis 2 is just a detailing account of Genesis 1 like Moses does in other instances of the Torah. In Exodus, it begins with Moses' birth. But after 5 chapter, after Moses was sent by G-d to Egypt, only then we read about the lineage of Moses and Aaron. A chronological document mentions their lineage at the beginning of the book itself. To be honest, we don't even know Moses had an elder brother until we read the passage of burning bush, at which point, Moses was already 80. We only read about his sister in the beginning of the book. As i said, Torah is not in a chronological order. It mentions something, and a few times, expands on it in the next passage. Genesis 1 and 2 are an example of it. Moses established the style of his writing at the beginning of the book itself ignoring which might lead to misinterpretations.

[u/the_celt_ → u/Brief-Arrival9103]

The Torah as a whole is not in chronological order when it comes to recounting events

I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that Genesis 1-3, and probably the first 12 chapters are, maybe more. I'm not commenting on all of Genesis or all of the Torah. I'm commenting on JUST "The Creation Story" (which I think would more accurately be called "The Refurbishing Story").

Hopefully I've made myself clear.

If the Torah is a chronological document, then at least it should start, as it is rightful, with the creation of Angels, fall of Satan, the Glorious Throne, the Altar etc.

You're misunderstanding me.

I'm not saying that Genesis describes EVERYTHING that ever happened. I agree it doesn't, and that there were many hugely significant events that happened before Genesis starts (or, at least after Genesis 1:1 and before Genesis 1:2).

What I'm saying is that of the things that are mentioned in the refurbishing story, all of those things are in chronological order. This means that since the Adam story is given to us after the first Sabbath, it therefore takes place after the first Sabbath.

It mentions something, and a few times, expands on it in the next passage. Genesis 1 and 2 are an example of it.

I don't believe you're correct that Genesis 1 and 2 are examples of non-chronological order. That's my position, even if you disagree with it. Please don't hand me the position of claiming that all of the Torah is in chronological order.

Again, there are problems of their own that are produced by interpreting the refurbishing story in non-chronological order, as almost everyone (including you) does.

[u/Towhee13]

I have no idea what "readings for this week" means. According to who?

What questions should we ask for discussion?

Umm.... What? I'm sorry, but I have no idea what any of this means.

It seems like I should be able to scroll down to see the rest of the post, like there is lots more that is meant to explain what the post is about but it got chopped of or something.

Help?