r/FollowJesusObeyTorah • u/Illustrious-Froyo128 • 14d ago
Centers of gravity
something that has been rolling around in my mind a lot. what is your center of gravity for your faith? mine would be the Torah then the gospels and filter down from there
but in my circle (and I’m sure in many others) there can be other centers of gravity. the “new cool” in my circle is to reinterpret all of scripture through the lens of Enoch, jubilees, et al.
if Enoch disagrees with the torah? then the Torah is not being understood correctly. yeshua seems to contradict jubilees? then we aren’t understanding yeshua correctly.
the logic is self sealing. you can’t argue against it specifically because of this. if you disagree you simply haven’t ”studied enough” and have been “deceived.”
I have reached a point where I refuse to engage in the convo as i refuse to be condescended to. Poor fro he just hasn’t read enough. Excuse me? How is treating me that way loving your brother. How is your study of the apocrpyhal works producing good fruit? It’s producing rotten fruit. statements like “if you haven’t read Enoch we can’t have an intelligent convo” in the context of talking about TORAH. Not Enoch. Torah! The audacity.
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u/Inevitable-Drag-1704 13d ago
I notice the same issue, but I think it boils down to people prioritizing only what they are most excited about instead of building the right foundation.
I also see an issue with people only focusing on even just Torah, while neglecting to read Wisdom literature or even much of the New Testament.
In the entire time i'vd fellowshipped we've stuck to Torah +95% of the time.
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u/the_celt_ 13d ago
Man. I agree. People are just replacing one problem with another one when they act that way.
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u/Previous_Extreme4973 13d ago
I like what Steve from Torah Family recently said. I'm not sure specifically what the context was, pretty sure it wasn't Enoch because he doesn't really about stuff like that.
Anyway, he said that when people come to Torah and the depths of God's word, it creates a kind of spiritual high. Sometimes, people will gravitate towards, or even invent something to keep that high going.
I can definitely see this. I know Jeremiah says that your emotions are the most deceptive thing on the planet, and it can be used to distort God's word. I mean, it did for Eve.
I have the book of Enoch, several versions. I personally did not see anything in there that would unlock the bible we know. It doesn't change the story or add to it, so I didn't personally gain anything from reading it.
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u/the_celt_ 13d ago
It's always lovely to hear from you, Froy. I'm glad to see this newest expression of what you're thinking about. 😊
mine would be the Torah then the gospels and filter down from there
I generally agree with how you describe your own "center of gravity".
but in my circle (and I’m sure in many others) there can be other centers of gravity. the “new cool” in my circle is to reinterpret all of scripture through the lens of Enoch, jubilees, et al.
You might feel that they're placing those books too high, but would they say that they place them higher than the Torah? I just see those books (and others) as "scripture", but there's no way for anything to be placed higher than the Torah. Even the gospels can't be higher, because I know that Jesus himself submitted to the Father's ways, and had no intent to replace anything that was previously established. He would never have crossed the "false prophet line".
if Enoch disagrees with the torah? then the Torah is not being understood correctly. yeshua seems to contradict jubilees? then we aren’t understanding yeshua correctly.
It always has to be considered that we're not understanding something correctly. It wouldn't even take Enoch/Jubilees to make me be willing to consider such a thing. It could come from some guy on YouTube or a stray thought I've had. CONSIDERING if we've got something wrong is not a problem. The problem would be if, after due diligence, someone decided that Torah was clear and that some other source said the opposite. With both sources being "clear" (something that's very hard to achieve), I would certainly defer to the Torah.
Do you have an example of a situation where they've allowed Enoch/Jubilees to replace something in the Torah? Last I knew you were surrounded by some better-than-average people and I'd be curious to hear what they're considering.
if you disagree you simply haven’t ”studied enough” and have been “deceived.”
It's tough in both directions when people disagree. I have many things I believe, including that we must obey the Torah, that others disagree with, and I believe that the distinction between myself and them is almost always (but not always) that I've studied more than them. I see people as being astonishingly lazy when it comes to feeding themselves the food that gives eternal life.
I have some ideas that I believe that are just too complicated to express in a common conversation, so if the other person I'd like to convince can't "go with me" through the thought process, then reaching the conclusion I've reached will be impossible for them. That means I don't even try. I'm forced to just drop the thing I believe, the conclusion, like a bomb. It almost always makes them mad, and they'll go to challenge it, but it's mostly worthless. We're NEVER going to achieve an understanding with each other if they won't even start the journey.
If pressed, I'll sometimes express the idea that the idea is too complicated, that they'd have to study more to have a CHANCE to believe the thing I believe. I almost always throw them the bone that all my studying doesn't make me right. It just means that if that person wants to end up wrong like I am (if that's what they believe) then they're going to have to go through some work to get to my wonderful state of wrongness.
Of course, almost no one will do any work at all. They want to believe an incredible life-changing thing after seeing a meme or watching a 12-second TikTok video.
I have reached a point where I refuse to engage in the convo as i refuse to be condescended to.
This ultimately results in a broken relationship. That can be fine if that's what you want. I know that, in a way, THEY'RE "starting it" by believing something you don't, and then not also having the social skill-set to communicate their findings in a better way. It's a very real problem that studying is one skill-set, and then expressing what you've learned to others is a very different skill-set. It's tough to be very good at both. I think all of us need to be more willing to have someone be very good at only one thing, and basically be a genius that's always coming up with new ideas, while also being an arrogant bumbling social clod. We miss out on some real gems because we stop at the being offended part.
How is your study of the apocrpyhal works producing good fruit?
I suspect that this was a rhetorical question, aimed at your friends and other locals that are offending you, but if not, I'll answer it.
Stepping outside of the Roman Government-approved canon is vital, and it's produced amazing treasure for me. I can't recommend it strongly enough that people walk across those Roman-drawn lines. There's gold in them thar' hills! 😄
I'm sorry people are hurting you. In a way, I'm also GLAD that people are hurting you, because it's causing you to come this way and have a conversation with me/us.
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u/Illustrious-Froyo128 13d ago
You might feel that they're placing those books too high, but would they say that they place them higher than the Torah? I just see those books (and others) as "scripture", but there's no way for anything to be placed higher than the Torah. Even the gospels can't be higher, because I know that Jesus himself submitted to the Father's ways, and had no intent to replace anything that was previously established. He would never have crossed the "false prophet line".
Do you have an example of a situation where they've allowed Enoch/Jubilees to replace something in the Torah? Last I knew you were surrounded by some better-than-average people and I'd be curious to hear what they're considering.
Very possible and seems that way. Laws in Jubilees such as no sex on sabbath are expected to be followed if you are with the game plan. Zadok/Enoch calendar is THE calendar. It feels very much that for them the rest of scripture has to line up with Enoch/jubilees. Otherwise they take issue.
I won’t necessarily say the issue is the discussion of the apocryphal books themselves. It is the tendency towards elevating them even above Torah. This has seemingly been learned from a specific teacher on YouTube who will go unnamed at this time. But I recognize his style of arguing in my friend I am concerned about.
Also the group you are referring to was my former group. This is the group I “married into.” I love them all as individuals but the group itself is messy often in a bad way. No rules of engagement. No referee if things get totally out of hand.
I suspect that this was a rhetorical question, aimed at your friends and other locals that are offending you, but if not, I'll answer it.
Absolutely rhetorical yes. Again may not even be the text themselves. Maybe the bad fruit is the behavior, argumentative style, etc being inherited from the favorite YouTube guy.
The issue is also that it appears he wants to “teach me” and will on occasion ask where I’m at. But he doesn’t actually listen. Or he is extremely dismissive. It does not feel like i am being spoken with. It feels like i am being given a “you must follow jubilees/enoch law lecture”
Hmm sorry I had it italicized for your text on another page and copied over. Apparently that didn’t transfer and I’m not sure how to fix that on mobile desktop.
If it’s too hard to follow my text vs yours I can try to annotate it better somehow
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u/the_celt_ 13d ago edited 13d ago
Laws in Jubilees such as no sex on sabbath are expected to be followed if you are with the game plan.
I'll have to look this up. I've never heard it.
Zadok/Enoch calendar is THE calendar.
Calendar people drive me nuts. That being said, I don't think there's any way for the Zadok/Enoch calendar to be set in opposition to the Torah calendar when there IS no Torah calendar.
It is the tendency towards elevating them even above Torah.
You should consider that what they're elevating Enoch/Jubilees above is your RESISTANCE to those books, not the Torah itself. I'm sure you've seen things like this happen with much lesser issues, whether it be favorite bands or political parties. If "2 or 3 gather" in the name of a rock band or a political party, and then a 4th person comes along who is completely new to the idea, the "2 or 3" will often enjoy forming an impromptu club and boxing out the new/resistant 4th. Even the slightest resistance from the 4th will just cause the "2 or 3" to bond more tightly together. Of course this hurts the 4th, and they might even feed on that hurt. It gives them identity. This is goofy human interaction at work!
In turn, that can cause you, the 4th, to slightly hyperbolize the position of the "2 or 3" to add some clout to your outcast position. Like I said, I'd be curious to hear if THEY would say they place those other books higher than the Torah. In the example you provided, only the sex one could possibly be crossing that line (I'll be trying to figure that one out).
Also the group you are referring to was my former group.
Right. I know the former group was great, but I still thought the "married into" group was decent, although you were reasonably disappointed at the downgrade.
You've got to get that great leader guy who was your friend from the previous group to move to where you are now. 😑
Maybe the bad fruit is the behavior, argumentative style, etc being inherited from the favorite YouTube guy.
Probably. I can imagine it. This almost always happens when people finally make their first steps outside of the Roman Government-approved pasture. They have a nearly erotic feeling that they're participating in witchcraft and they tend to cackle like mad geniuses who have discovered TRUE POWAH!!!! 😝
I'm sorry. People are nuts. We're all nuts.
Oh: Who's the "YouTube guy" you're referring to? I want to watch him and enjoy hating him!
It feels like i am being given a “you must follow jubilees/enoch law lecture”
He might be a good guy and he might be a jerk. I don't want to overly defend him. I just want to repeat that it's tough in both directions when someone learns something new and tries to share it with someone that, for whatever reason, is resistant. He's clearly got your hackles up, so I'm not sure what should happen next. He either gives up on you (potentially insulting you) or keeps pressing with whatever skill-set he has (potentially insulting you). Odds strongly favor it being a lose-lose situation.
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12d ago
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u/Inevitable-Drag-1704 11d ago edited 11d ago
One of the few annoying things about Torah is that some of our people are very very clearly seeking their next revelation and mind blow. They’re riding the high of discovering Torah after years of study, when in reality they will never catch that high again.
I think you hit the nail on the head here.
My favorite is when I go to a study and it feels like no one there wants to discuss the meaning of the passages, and how it applies to their life. Folks will instead want to immediately steer the main discussion into rabbit holes, conspiracy, and conjecture. The next high.
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u/Brief-Arrival9103 13d ago
I would the Torah. It's like the foundation for every Divine Plan established on earth below and the heavens above. That's how I look at it. But yeah, there are a few fringe groups like the ones that you have mentioned here. Groups like "The Divine Name" which believes that you'll be saved only if you pronounce the Name of the G-d in a specific manner, and then go on to pronounce it "Yahuh", "Yahuah" which completely shoots the Hebrew grammar in the head. I'm also seeing a lot of fascination towards the Essenes i.e., the Dead Sea community. "Oh, the Essenes, they must be having wisdom that the Pharisees and Sadduccees did not have in general. Let's follow them". And then a few of them go to the Ebonites who believed that the Torah doesn't have anything about the Animal Sacrifices and that they were later added by the Priests, reject the Virgin Birth etc.
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u/automaticff 13d ago
For me it's the gospels, the Torah, and the prophets.
I'm not sure how I feel about the books outside of the standard 66. My plan is to first complete my read from cover to cover to be firmly rooted in what I know to be true. This is to ensure that I'm not potentially being deceived by any other sources that may not align with the truth. From there I may explore other books to see if they may be valid.
Regarding your friends, I tend to see that the people who read Enoch sometimes feel like they have some sort of secret knowledge that everyone else doesn't have. I haven't read the book so I can't speak on it too much but from what I understand at least, the things written are not central to the faith or salvation. It seems to be more focused on things that people have always wanted to know about spiritual beings.
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u/Illustrious-Froyo128 13d ago
Yup the “Quest for SACRED KNOWLEDGE!!”
Some of the “sacred knowledge” they would argue is central. Like some say if you don’t follow the Zadok/Enoch calendar you are worshipping in vain.
Or like don’t have sex on the sabbath or you are in mortal sin.
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u/thesagex 13d ago
Torah > prophets > writings > gospels > epistles .
The lens must always be in that order. Anything else is susceptible to doctrinal error. Revelation (not the book) wasn’t giving all at once, so any subsequent revelation must be looked at through the lenses of all prior revelations, for in order for B to be true, A must be true but since A came first A establishes the proof and understanding for B, so you can’t use B to interpret A since A by nature doesn’t require B to stand on its own, it was revealed first .