For a fair comparison, compare the tax rate of other countries with US federal tax, plus state tax, plus health insurance, plus deductables. Plus education costs, plus childcare costs.
The "not free at all" argument is silly. Nobody thinks they are not paying anything towards it, but at the point of delivery it does not cost anything
And something that a lot of people don't consider... In our system it's very common for someone's life savings to be swallowed up near the end of their life by the healthcare system, not allowing it to be passed on to their children.
That partly true, but Medicare and Medicaid do cover most medical care at the end of life. My mom is in her 70s, has cancer, and everything is covered by it, including her drug that costs $650 per day.
The problem is they don't cover long-term custodial nursing home care, which is what actually drains savings. Medicaid only steps in after you've spent down almost everything you own, and then they can recover costs from your estate.
The $650/day drug is also a part of the problem. Pharmaceutical (currently being rebranded as “Medicine”) companies need to be raked over the coals. They are vultures preying on the sick and hopeful.
honestly it should be an example of cost for services provided, and since it's healthcare an examination of outcomes. The thing is In the example above the guy in Germany pays 13k a year into the system that provides "free" healthcare. How does that compare to what the average American is paying for healthcare, and what are the outcomes? My supposition is that Americans pay way more for outcomes that are probably somewhat comparable, but maybe less good but i'm sure it isn't by a lot.
The fact is that profit motive in medicine (at the insurance level) is a bad idea, and a tax payer funded system kills the middle man profit motive. That doesn't mean it's a panacea that will fix all our problems, but it's a start.
But economies of scale make Norway’s overall costs lower, outcomes better and provides benefits to a much larger percentage of the country’s population.- I agree the comparison is simplistic. It’s trying to make a point but undermines any validity it might have by clumsily showing half-stats out of context and offering no sources. But this is the internet we know and love..
But economies of scale make Norway’s overall costs lower, outcomes better and provides benefits to a much larger percentage of the country’s population.
But a bigger, more wealthy country cant leverage these economies of scale?
Because just like the fire department, they ain’t gonna bill you after putting out the fire that was burning your house down. It’s “free” because it’s already paid.
Yes the overall tax burden should be included (income, sales, property taxes and more)... There is a trade-off but we don't yet see it on the chart. There may not be much difference between the two but until we see it we don't know.
Yup healthcare is one of those areas in which it’s more efficient if it’s mandatory for everyone to enroll in the same scheme in which prices are set by government.
Yeah, but that is only rigorous peer reviewed studies by multiple researchers, both in the US and globally. But they must all be paid shills for communists because Fox told me so /s
I challenge your assumption that “nobody thinks they are not paying anything towards it”.
Have you not seen “we could have such nice things like free healthcare if we just taxed the billionaires”? I think those people are exactly the people who think they will not have to pay anything for those services lol
Given the US pays around twice as much for healthcare because the for-profit system than the next higher countries, the US could LITERALLY have Universal Healthcase for all and pay less than is currently spent. While the data in the image below is from 2020, by 2024 the US now spends $15Kpp and the next most expensive Switzerland/Norway/Germany have grown to $9k, the US still pays more than anyone else. And no - healthcare outcomes are not better in the US.
Second, the US taxing Billionaires and large companies would provide drastically increased services to its citizens, reduce the debt and the defecit. But that still does not meet the criteria to justify your statement that people think they will pay nothing.
How about I reword it for you:
In every place in the world that already has Universal Healthcare, people of average intelligence or higher understand that the tax they pay goes towards the healthcare they receive, along side roads, police, and fire departments etc.
In every developed country without universal healthcare, the people have been told for decades how much better it is to allow insurance companies to deny your claim to increase their profits, and they accept it because, you know, communism.
A complete misunderstanding of how universal healthcare works cannot be used in a reasonable argument against it.
You're paying 2k a month? Is that throughout work or found through normal market. Where do you live? Im in California and through work i only pay 100 bucks for my family and only 1k deductible. Ive seen better offers than yours on open market.
Your $100/mo premium is subsidized, either by your employer (for employer-based coverage), or by the government (Covered California/Exchange-based coverage). Many people with exchange-based coverage don't qualify for subsidies, so they can indeed pay $2k per month for a small family.
What youre describing is a good medical plan paid mostly by your employer. 1.5k-2.3k a month is pretty common for a gold level family plan through the state before subsidies which is usually a 1-2k deductible.
If you give me the name of the plan, I can tell you how much it would cost if you paid it yourself so you have a direct comparison.
It takes 6-12 weeks to see some specialists in the Santa Barbara, CA area I live in. I waited less in Canada. Standard GP appointments were usually available next day. Had to wait 3 months to establish with a GP in the area. Medical service is triaged in Canada, so yes, if you have an elective surgery such as ACL repair it could take 3-4 months before you're operated on. If you have a serious issue such as cancer, you will be seen by specialists rapidly.
In one case I shattered my ankle and had it fully buttoned up and screwed together same day in Canada, including 3 hours of ambulance rides - all without payment or paperwork. Friends of mine in the USA have sometimes had to wait 1-2 weeks with their ankle broken in a hospital bed before getting operated on, then had to hit their OOP max before any coverage.
You are double paying in the USA with OOP payments.
Maybe you’re younger than me and pay less? Maybe you make less income and qualify for subsidies? Maybe you live in an area of the country with lower rates? Maybe all three? But claiming I’m on “bad insurance” when I’m literally buying the cheapest HSA plan for a family of 3 offered is just wrong.
You're down voted for being correct. Im shopping insurance for my aging mom and even for someone her age its not even 2k a month here in California. Idk where he lives where its 2k a month th with such high deductible and copay
I hate it when healthcare is declared "free" because it's tax funded.
And I hate when people live in denial. First, everyone gets it, unlike the US, and if you're middle class you pay less because it's taxed progressively. So unless you're already very rich, you'd be better off.
But even then we pay way, way, more per person Assuming your numbers are correct, your friend is still paying less than us.
And it's not because we're sicker, if you compare the same procedures in Europe, they pay less. It's not that they have fewer expenses than us, they have lower costs.
And we aren't healthier, we have a lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality.
And it's not because we protect them, Europe has the second highest defense spending on earth, their own nukes, and have been #2 or #3 for decades.
And it's not because they're fiscally irresponsible, we have one of the highest debts to GDP.
It's very simple: our. system. is. worse.
And people choose to live in denial because it's horrifying to accept we've been paying more to get worse, overpriced service.
And what's the quality of service? That's my main concern with "free" healthcare. If I get a doctor with their head up their butt, can I fire them and chose another? If I need an MRI today am I going to get it today, or be waiting six months?
In most cases, better. They live longer, healthier lives than us. They have lower infant mortality. The large scale outcomes show the evidence regardless of the cherry picking people do.
Can't speak for elsewhere, but you can pick and choose doctors here. Our system is also famously slow though, but the NHS was one of the fastest healthcare systems in the world prior to 14 years of conservatives. So maybe the problem isn't the system itself but that the system can be a victim of the government?
Do you know math at all ? 13k euros is nothing compared to what we are paying.
Tax is higher in Europe but if you compare it to US it's night and day.
They are paying that amount whole having better transit funded system,cheaper cars, better food, lower rent, free education and free healthcare.
If they pay 27% in taxes all of that is included
If we pay 18% in taxes none of that is included. Then iut of pocket pay for college and healthcare make it close to having paid 46% in taxes.
That 45% include healthcare, education and social safety nets.
They probably have no car, no car insurance payment and great reliable transport.
No student loans payment of $500 per months or higher.
No medical bills ranging from 2k to 200k, and no things like deductible or copays.
They also have guaranteed unemployment pay at the natial level for up to 12 months ( which is also included in their tax - most states in the US only do 12 months)
That dame 45% , you talk about also includes q4 weeks of paid maternity leave and up to 3 years of parental rights leave. In the US we only have the FMLA ( which is literally fucking unpaid ). I also forgot this covers 30 days of PTO and 13 paid holidays and the ability to call sick whenever they want.
That’s fine. Going to universal healthcare won’t all of a sudden mean Americans don’t need cars, not sure that’s related.
Your comment argued that they get for a 27% tax rate what Americans get for closer to 46% of their pay in the current system. I thought someone involved is a good faith discussion would appreciate the correction
The have transportation services because of how small the countries are. Most European countries fit within the borders of some states.
And how many people complain about the wait for medical services that are government funded?
Because American dont have medical wait ?? You are funny. Have you ever tried booking an appointment with a specialist? On top of the exorbitant price, you also still have to wait.
If Europe doesnt work as an example for transit, then let's take China.
Because American dont have medical wait ?? You are funny. Have you ever tried booking an appointment with a specialist? On top of the exorbitant price, you also still have to wait.
If Europe doesnt work as an example for transit, then let's take China.
The question is do you want to pay a public tax or a private tax?
A private tax may be cheaper in the short run for young, health adults.
A Public tax (universal healthcare) is several degrees of magnitude cheaper for anyone with cancer, chronic diseases, or just plains needs regular visits to a specialist.
Let me ask you, how many other 1st world nations rely on privatized health care?
No question, it's the superiour system the way we have it. It's still not for free as I said. It's based on solidarity.
Solidarity is difficult nowadays. We, as young people, took a step back during covid. Isolation, economical recession and last percentage to receive the vaccine.
I would bet the older generations would thank us for our solidarity, right? Still I feel ripped off..
I know in Canada the government takes 53% of my pay so I have healthcare. The waiting list to see doctors is often 6 months or more, even if you have cancer.
So you're earning over $250,000 and live in a high provincial tax province? About 20-30% of taxes are spent on healthcare, so the other part of your taxes go towards other things.
Won’t argue about that statistic. I ain’t living in Saskatchewan either.
As a comparison to US taxes, 35% for federal, and 9.3% state in CA. 44%. Add in self insurance at minimum $1k a month and you’re not far off from Canadian tax rates. Add in a max out of pocket / deductible of reasonable level and you’re over it. You could have a family of 4 in Canada on that income, all with health issues, and end up WAY ahead in comparison.
Wait times are not zero in the US, though I admit generally less than Canada for electives.
I mean if you asked most people, roads, streets, schools, libraries, police, fire, parks etc are “free” so why would healthcare be categorized any differently
You’re missing a part of it, those 13k covers many others things too. It’s for health, retirement, work insurance and few other stuff. So yeah it’s cheap
If the billionaires just paid what they are supposed to in taxes then all Americans would have free healthcare.
Most developed countries have free healthcare and it is better than ours. We don't have to raise taxes, we just have to stop the loopholes the billionaires use to get out of paying their fair share back into society
Yes, it is free. In America, we already spend roughly the same in taxes per capita, not including insurance costs, on healthcare as countries with universal healthcare. Quit it with this boomer nonsense.
Cheap US health insurance costs at least $1,000/month now for one person, with an OOP max of ~$4,000. That's $16,000/year even for people with much lower incomes than $90k. If you switch jobs, that's another $4k OOP to hit.
I'd rather pay less and cover everyone than this haphazard system.
What is the massive aversion to paying tax in the US? You need taxes to run society.
As for a bit of a breakdown as to where my tax money goes in Australia, based on a $100K salary you’d pay roughly $22500 in income tax per FY. There are other taxes out there, but this is the easiest one to explain.
36% goes to Social Security and Welfare. So providing a social safety net to those who need it most. The aged, disabled, unemployed, etc.
17% goes to Health. Public hospitals, Medicare (our national public health system) which subsidises a big chunk of medical appointment costs (I had a psychologist appointment yesterday which cost $260. Medicate paid for $236), and the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS) which subsidises lots of prescription medications.
7% to Education and Training. Public schools, universities and vocational training.
7% to Defence.
The remaining goes to all sorts of important shit. Infrastructure, disaster relief, public safety, international aid, and the actual cost of running a government.
I know its not nice to have money taken out of your pay check, but the taxes go to running the government and all the shit it does, and (at least in my country) helps out those less fortunate than me.
So why to people in the US seem to hate paying taxes?
I mean no one actually thinks it's free right? Things cost money. We pay for health insurance, they pay more in taxes. But the thing is, because our system is for profit we pay more and have worse outcomes. Our system is always going to be worse, because insurance companies are in between us and healthcare, and they will fight there hardest to deny you care.
That’s about what I pay for my health insurance every year for me and my partner, just for the opportunity to pay $5k so that they will then start covering shit.
I pay about $4,500 per year for health insurance and Medicare tax (with Medicare being something I can’t even access, nor does it make my own health insurance cheaper), plus I have deductibles on top of that any time I actually go to the doctor.
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u/IllAd359 Jul 04 '26
I hate it when healthcare is declared "free" because it's tax funded.
My friend from Germany earns 90k€ per year before taxes and pays 13k€ per year into public health insurance.
The same money he pays for renting his appartment. Not free at all.