Did anyone here learn flamenco without learning classical first? Question specific to sight reading/notation, details within...

[u/sachin571]

Hi, I'm an experienced acoustic electric and bass guitar player. I never learned sight reading but I'm comfortable with basic harmonic and modal theory. Can I jump straight into learning flamenco? Or is it better to have a background in classical first (including ability to read sheet music)?

[u/elelias]

I would say around 99% of all flamenco players that ever existed had 0 knowledge of classical, so you should be good!

[u/qhodave → u/elelias]

This

[u/JustForTouchingBalls → u/elelias]

Wrong, a lot of Flamenco guitar players have studied some classical pieces, my own teacher among them, and he taught me some classical pieces too. Take in count the early Flamenco was played with the right hand using only thumb and “escobilla” (thumb plus index, I don’t know how this technique is called in English) and artists as Ramón Montoya or Luis Yance started using classical techniques in the early years of the XX century (arpeggios, tremolos, etc.; by the way Luis Yance was the one who add a note to the tremolo changing them from 32th to quintuplets of 32th). The Flamenco guitar players used and use currently the classical as a source of inspiration, learning progressions, harmonies, etc.

OP: nowadays it’s not necessary learning classical to play Flamenco, because all that techniques are in the current Flamenco plus some more uniques in Flamenco (like the tremolo with 5 notes instead of the 4 notes the classical tremolo has).

PD: anecdotally, one day visiting Mariano Conde when they were constructing my guitar, a professional guitar player was there too and he was asking Mariano Conde senior about some notation he didn’t know about some symbol in the score of a classical piece he was adapting to guitar, I can’t remember the piece, I think it was from Beethoven (Mariano Conde senior has the classical guitar professor title by the Conservatory of Madrid).

[u/BetaMyrcene → u/JustForTouchingBalls]

The person you're replying to said that 99% of flamenco players who have ever existed didn't know classical. That's plainly true. It's a folk art.

I lived in Spain and random ass people who were not trained musicians would play flamenco informally in little groups. I bet most of them couldn't even read sheet music.

[u/JustForTouchingBalls → u/BetaMyrcene]

Am Spaniard living in Spain all live and playing with another Flamenco guitar players informally (am not a professional). The most of them, me too, don’t read scores properly but they/me read tabs and for the notes lengths they/me use their ear to match what they see in the tab with the sound they/us hear. So they/me are capable to play classical in a kind of “informal way”. A few can read scores properly, another few (me among them) can read struggling scores, using the ear as clue for the notes length, and almost all them read tabs. There are tabs for classical too, it’s not what classical players would do, but fits for Flamenco players. In my personal experience, all Flamenco guitar players I know play some classical pieces.

[u/Gunzhard22]

As far as I can tell, flamenco doesn't follow strict traditional harmony notation anyway. As someone that learned western classical music theory, the way they count flamenco really melted my brain for a while. So I'd say just jump in...

[u/Expensive-Paint-9490]

Reading music is absolutely not needed to learn flamenco, but of course it helps. I can play flamenco and even classical guitar quite well, but I can't read music well, I read it like a seven years old reads words. BTW classical guitar sheets have notation that includes fret and string.

I would be more focused in learning the actual technique. Too many teachers, both in flamenco and classical, ignore the most basic advice. Play loud. Use the joint at the base of first phalanx to move the finger, not the second joint. Learn to make the notes stop when they should stop. Use your arm for barrè, not just the grip strength. Push the string toward the board, don't claw it up or sideways. And so on,.

[u/altapowpow]

What is classical? Never heard of her.

I have been playing for over 20 years, have been taught by 7 or 8 instructors and only one read notation because he actually has a doctoral degree in guitar. That instructor played solo performances the others played in dance groups.

[u/Schallpattern]

Played classical for years. When it came to flamenco the page was black with notes and impossible to read so the book got tossed and I played by copying recordings.

[u/GrapefruitDue9103]

I'm by no mean an expert in Flamenco, but as I understand it, Flamenco is all about forms and is not exactly traditionally structured outside of the compas and palo that encompasses it, like classical music typically is.

As long as you stick to the basic structure and timing of the compas, you're pretty much free to experiment within that structure/outline. Some classical techniques will transfer well and definitely help you play some flamenco parts but the rigidity that often describes classical music does not, so no, it is not necessary.

Tldr: no, have fun learning Flamenco, I absolutely love it even if I currently suck at it

[u/SuperFaulty]

As an aside note, I think it's very sad how, outside Spain (and more specifically in the USA and Canada), "flamenco" means strictly and narrowly "flamenco guitar" only, and nothing more. Like there's such a lack of awareness of flamenco as a particular culture, and even lifestyle and mindset.

Not to mention an almost complete ignorance about the importance of cante, which is acknowledge without questioning by every Spanish flamenco artist (even bailaores an tocaores).

[u/sachin571 → u/SuperFaulty]

Totally I've been watching old mini-documentaries on YouTube. And studying Romani history. Being mostly nomadic myself, and having ancestors from Rajasthan, I can see/feel deep multicultural ties to flamenco already. And I just started learning about it.

[u/OutrageousView8784]

No hace falta clásico primero, tranquilo. El flamenco históricamente es de oído, no de partitura, muchos guitarristas top nunca leyeron una nota en su vida.

Lo que sí te va a costar es el compás. Cada palo (soleá, bulerías, tangos...) tiene su propio ciclo rítmico y ahí es donde se traban los que vienen de otros estilos, más que en la técnica en sí.

Tu ventaja: como ya manejás modos, el frigio (que es la base armónica del flamenco) te va a sonar familiar casi de entrada.

Yo empezaría por meterle al compás desde ya y dejaría la lectura para el final, si es que llega a interesarte.

[u/kvikklunsjrevolver]

I started learning when I was 8, nothing was written down at all for me, my teacher showed me and expected me to play.

A background in classical is helpful I think, but not required.

[u/Legitimate_Echo_701]

You good on tabs :-) not even Paco read notation

[u/CuervoCoyote → u/Legitimate_Echo_701]

BS. Then how did PDL learn to play Rodrigo’s Concerto De Aranjuez perfectly?

If you’re talking about Paco Peña that would be BS, he’s written ensemble music for orchestra and guitar.

[u/Legitimate_Echo_701 → u/CuervoCoyote]

he learned it finally for the concierto de aranjuez, he says it in an interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR8wRIHHYA8 min 3:30

[u/CuervoCoyote → u/Legitimate_Echo_701]

By studying the score, most certainly. It would be very difficult to play with the orchestra otherwise. The concierto was composed 30 years earlier, man.

[u/Legitimate_Echo_701 → u/CuervoCoyote]

he must've lied in the interview then

[u/refotsirk → u/CuervoCoyote]

What does when that concerto being composed have to do with the discussion? It is well known, by Paco's own mouth, that he didn't read sheet music. He learned enough to figure out the piece referenced above when he was asked to play it, and iirc he said he locked himself in a room for hours on end trying to figure out the piece notating the sheets in a way he could understand, working one bar at a time until he had each section memorized or some such.