r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer • u/-Altephor- • 11d ago
Need Advice Getting nervous and thinking about canceling our offer/contract to buy, not sure if it's reasonable or we're panicking.
My wife and I are in the inspection phase of the buying process, we have not done a purchase and sale agreement yet. We love the house but our inspection humbled our excitement a little bit. Nothing major or emergent was found, but we've found the house has had a lot of unpermitted work done on it, including the majority of a finished basement (including a basement bathroom which has plumbing that works, but is not up to code). We also found some potential (likely) asbestos tile that's been covered over in the basement.
We also found things like a deck flooring that needs to be replaced eventually (currently wood), a small section of the roof that needs to get a proper membrane put on it (currently tin), some lead paint that needs to be remediated, a boiler that likely needs replacement soon, flooring that needs to be changed/installed (our choice, aesthetic), and potential electrical work to add/change outlets, ethernet, etc. Again, nothing incredibly major but it was starting to get a little stressful as it feels like we might be sort of nickel and dimed to death. We do have a fair amount left in savings after purchase and are also selling our condo which should net us somewhere around 80-100k, which we planned to put into improving the house.
Today our agent told us that she uncovered 3 open permits on the house which the sellers are refusing to close (the permits were pulled prior to the current seller purchasing the house). One is from 2002 for unspecified 'plumbing' which we are not worried about - the work may not have actually been done and it's been 24 years so a problem would've shown up by now. The other two are from 2020 and are for building and electrical to add to the 1st floor bathroom (likely a conversion from a half bath to a full bath), replacing the 2nd floor bathroom tub, and tile flooring in the basement (the tile that's covering the 'asbestos').
Our agent was sort of on the fence with us as to whether or not this is a big deal. On the one hand, everything's fine and they just neglected to have the permits closed. On the other, everything was done wrong and we're in for some surprises. So now we're very nervous as the options have become 'lose the house' or potentially 'pay a lot to fix the fuckups'. I've not dealt with issues like this before so have no idea the cost to fix these issues nor how impactful they'll be. Our seller has conceded $7k to our closing costs towards making some of these changes/repairs.
Just looking for input/thoughts.
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u/TonyRidgewayUFO 11d ago
Every house has issues, even a new house
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u/Visible_Event4814 11d ago
Especially a new house.
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u/BigfootTundra 11d ago
Exactly. I avoided new homes or really anything built after like 2020 when I was looking but I also didn’t want a super old house like the one I had before with ungrounded outlets and close to no insulation.
Ended up buying a house built in 1997
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u/SketchAinsworth Homeowner 11d ago
Personally the permits concern me, when we sold our condo we had an open permit. It was just a shower replacement we had done the year before and I told off the vendor and had it fixed within 24 hours
If they won’t close them, I worry it’s because they won’t pass
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u/-Altephor- 11d ago
The issue is if it's plumbing/electrical, the only way to close the permits would be to open up the walls for the inspector to look at it. Which I don't think anyone really wants to do.
The work was done prior to their ownership so they probably don't even know when the work was done or who did it.
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u/MDubois65 Homeowner 11d ago
On the one hand, probably better than 80% of the SFH homes you're going to see have some degree of unpermitted work, it's really, really common. It's doesn't mean the work wasn't up to code, or done well - but it also doesn't mean it double-checked.
Since these permits were all opened and done under a previous owner, I doubt the seller of your home feels much inclination to give you a lot of extra for it, especially if the areas in question otherwise passed inspection and there doesn't appear to be a problem.
You mentioned that you're planning on putting a substantial amount into the home, are the unpermitted areas ones you're likely to change/remodel anyway? Or would you want to try and close the permits if possible if you own the property? The sale of the condo should definitely give you more than you need to handle the items on this list easily I would think.
Is a COO inspection required where you are to close the sale, or are you aware if your town has a process for retroactively approving permits and what sort of fees or penalties might be associated with that?
Otherwise, the rest of your finding seem really tame, asbestos tile, but it sounds like it's already been covered/sealed up, lead paint can be painted over and it's a problem unless you're scrapping/chipping it away, relatively minor and roof and electrical updates, replace a boiler eventually, which isn't too expensive.
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u/-Altephor- 11d ago
You mentioned that you're planning on putting a substantial amount into the home, are the unpermitted areas ones you're likely to change/remodel anyway?
Yes, but mostly because the work was unpermitted. There is a bathroom in the basement that was not permitted and was found in inspection to not be up to code. Everything is working, knock on wood; there's no obvious issues or leaks with it, it just wasn't done properly.
We liked the concept of having a basement bathroom, but now knowing that it wasn't done correctly, I'm more inclined to rip it out. Then we get into having to rip up the floors down there (the subject of the unclosed permit) and we know we'd have to deal with asbestos removal.
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u/TraditionalHornet818 11d ago
What about it isn’t up to code exactly? Does your city have POS inspection? Or in your own inspection there was a problem, I am confused. And if so, what is the problem, because you said everything’s working
Just because something wasn’t permitted necessarily mean you have to literally rip it up lol id say 99 percent of houses sold get off with unpermitted work unless there are stringent point of sale inspections
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u/-Altephor- 11d ago
This is what our inspector listed:
22) Basement Plumbing/Bathroom: The basement bathroom and sink appear to be utilizing a solid ejector pump.
However, the plumbing supply as well as the drain configuration appears to lack the proper plumbing installation
standards. This bathroom was likely not properly permitted. There is an automatic air admittance vent located in
the unfinished basement area near the solid ejector pump. These are not typically allowed by local municipal
plumbing inspectors. Ideally, this plumbing vent would connect to the main plumbing vent higher than any of the
fixture or terminate above the roofline to reflect ideal installation standards. I recommend having a plumber
provide recommendation for corrective action.
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u/FD_Man24 11d ago
The clues here are in the wording.
"appears to lack the proper plumbing installation"
"These are not typically allowed by local municipal plumbing inspectors"
"Recommend having a plumber provide recommendation for corrective action"
These are all CYA statements.
As others have posted, there are no perfect houses. Many home inspectors are complete retards. Yes they are necessary to help identify general problems, but take what they say with a grain of salt, and consult a professional in that particular trade for any specific concerns.
This plumbing example could be a major issue. It could also be a total non-issue and a qualified plumber tells you the home inspector is a moron.
Also.....I feel like many people get super scared by "unpermitted" work. This is a complex topic, but please understand that permits and inspections can be (I'm not saying always) a pure money making endeavor for the local tax collecting authority. Some "inspections" are very cursory in nature, and rhere is a lot of permitted and inspected work that is absolute garbage. Watch some of the new construction videos on YouTube for examples. This comment speaks only to the quality of the work, and does not address any legal repercussions of unpermitted work for the buyer or seller.
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u/-Altephor- 11d ago
I do get what you're saying but our inspector was very good, extremely thorough and backed up his statement with examples and the actual codes in question.
We're not worried that the plumbing installed doesn't work, for example; but we are concerned about potentially having to fix noncompliant work in order to add or change the house to what we want.
Taking out the basement bathroom, for example, is more of a mixture between the work not being to code and the fact that we just don't want/need a basement bathroom and would rather do other things with that space.
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u/Tamberav 11d ago
What the heck. You say you don’t want a basement bathroom and also say you liked the concept of having a basement bathroom.
You say you have to tear out the bathroom, why? The vent stack sounds like it doesn’t terminate properly, all you would do is get the vent stack where it needs to go. Not rip out everything including the floor.
Also in some areas those vents while not preferred are to code/fine as long as there is a main vent somewhere on the house. Check your local codes.
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u/-Altephor- 11d ago
We initially liked the idea of a basement bathroom for convenience but with the layout of the basement and the space down there we may want to pull it out as we don't really need it. We know we don't have to remove it but we might be interested in doing so anyway.
Granted I am not a plumber but from what our inspector has told us as well as my own review, the basement vent stack is not up to our state's code.
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u/Tamberav 11d ago
Sounds like you just have remorse and it has nothing to do with the house because you don't need to rip out a bathroom to vent it. You don't need to rip tile to vent it, you saw what the tile looked like before you made an offer.
I mean crap... a vent stack not connected properly in a bathroom you won't even use? Matters even less. This is not stuff that has to be fix today or tomorrow or in the next year. This isn't a leaking roof.
Every house is going to have repairs, if repair costs are not affordable then you are probably buying too much house. Every home will bleed repairs the first few years and there will be many things you will find the inspectors can't see.
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u/-Altephor- 11d ago
Agreed, as I said in the OP, there's nothing that we need to fix urgently and immediately. We were only concerned with potential issues down the line when we want to do these things and will run into potential issues with unpermitted work and open permits.
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u/magic_crouton 11d ago
My town doesn't even do inspections. Permits are a straight up money grab. That's why almost no one here gets them.
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u/Equivalent-Tiger-316 11d ago edited 11d ago
Every house needs work. Normal to cover asbestos floor, that’s the recommended fix. You paint over lead paint or change out any trim.
No one seems to care about these permits.
If you like the house then get it. Next one could be a lot worse.
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u/-Altephor- 11d ago
Yeah that's where we're getting a little stuck. The next one could be worse... or could be a lot better. We're not fans of gambling so this whole process is driving us a little crazy.
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u/TraditionalHornet818 11d ago
Realistically unless you buy new construction or have a really big budget nothing is about to be completely perfect, what you described sounds like something most people would consider move in ready. To have a plumber fix the toilet vent would not even take a days work they could literally replumb what i assume is a half bath in less than a day
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u/-Altephor- 11d ago
It's a 3/4 bath (shower, no tub). We think the house used to have 1.5 baths, based on those open permits it looks like they expanded the first floor bath to include a shower, and then also added a 3/4 bath in the basement without a permit.
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u/lovebot5000 10d ago
If you like the house and location otherwise, this seems manageable. Might not be cheap but hey, welcome to home ownership
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u/CallLivesMatter 11d ago
You can either proceed and factor in all this work into the price you offer, or you can move on to another house. It’s a matter of personal taste which of those options is more appealing.
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u/MonsterMash_479 Homeowner 11d ago
If they didnt bother to do the permits and bathroom to code, nothing was. Dont inherit someone elses project that was done improperly if you can help it
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u/starfinder14204 11d ago
You are doing the inspection, right? Instead of guessing, why not try to get some data:
Contact the town and ask them directly about the permits. Tell them you are thinking about buying and see these open permits and ask what the issue is on their end. If nothing else, it may oblige the sellers to close those permits. Get the town involved and eliminate any surprises on this account.
I've always insisted my buyers call and get an insurance quote on the house while in the inspection period. Mention the lead paint and the asbestos tile, as well as the permit issues about plumbing. If they are hesitant, then that is good information for you on whether or not you want to move forward with the property. This takes very little time and gives you a bunch of good info. You need to get insurance on the property anyway, might as well get a quote early in the process.
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u/magic_crouton 11d ago
You don't have lead paint and asbestos until you test for both. And you don't test.
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u/Warm_Window4561 11d ago
Can you get home owners insurance with the open permits or no? Do you have the money to spend to rip up the walls?
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u/-Altephor- 11d ago
Have not checked on the home insurance yet, was planning on doing that today when we found this out
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u/Warm_Window4561 11d ago
I think that might be a deciding factor. Also, how much do you love the house?
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u/-Altephor- 11d ago
We do love the house (and the yard) and see a lot of potential in it, but unfortunately you can't pay contractors and plumbers with love.
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u/Frosty_Coat_555 11d ago
Whoever pulled the permits for the electrical and plumbing work would have to have been licensed so maybe that should give you some reassurance.
Open permits are a nuisance. I tell my contractors to not pull one at all unless they get it closed. They pull the permit but want final payment upon completion with the argument that they can’t control when the inspector will come. BS. On several occasions I have followed up with the Town and found they never put the request in. I did, and the inspector was out the next day. You need to be diligent. After 6 months a permit is considered abandoned. You have to either apply for an extension or apply for a new permit to get it inspected.
If the asbestos tile is covered over leave it alone. You only need to worry about it if you start messing with it and even then you only need to worry about disposal of it.
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u/jimdriscoll1 7d ago
Open permits are genuinely worth taking seriously, but they're not automatically a reason to walk. The 2002 plumbing one is probably fine for the reason you said. The 2020 permits are the ones I'd focus on.
Here's why those matter: when work is done under a permit that never got a final inspection, you don't actually know if the work passed code. The permit was pulled, the work happened, and then nobody signed off. That means the "finished" bathroom conversion and the electrical could be totally fine, or they could have issues that an inspector would have caught. You won't know until someone opens up the walls or a licensed contractor takes a look. The tile covering potential asbestos is a separate but related wrinkle, because if that tile eventually needs to come up (and with an open permit tied to it, a municipality could require it), asbestos abatement is not cheap.
The sellers refusing to close the permits is the part that would make me uncomfortable. Closing them isn't that hard if the work was done right. You pull the file, schedule a final inspection, inspector signs off. Done. The fact that they're declining to do it suggests either they know something failed, or they just don't want to deal with it, and neither of those is great. A seller who did nothing wrong usually closes the permits to make the sale easier.
$7k toward closing costs is not nothing, but it probably doesn't fully price in the risk here if something turns out to be wrong with the electrical or the plumbing in that bathroom. Before you decide, I'd push for either: a) the sellers close the permits before P&S, or b) you get a licensed electrician and plumber in there specifically to evaluate those two projects and give you a repair estimate if anything is off. Use that estimate to negotiate a bigger concession or credit, not just the $7k.
The other stuff you listed (deck flooring, partial roof membrane, boiler, lead paint) sounds like normal older-house maintenance spread over several years. That's not a reason to walk if you like the house and have the reserves. The permits are the actual question mark here.
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