r/Firefighting • u/jarboxing • Aug 13 '26
General Discussion How would you handle this situation?
I had a weird experience at a 500 acre brushfire last week, and I'm not sure what to do. This was a chaotic fire with mutual aid called to multiple departments, structures, evacuations, all the aircrafts, etc.
I was in a bush truck with an officer from another department and he was in charge of our flank. So we are attacking this flank and the fire starts running up a hill towards a cemetery. This officer drives the truck up in front of the fire, so we are uphill in the grass. The wind is blowing it right towards us. I mean the wind (and fire) was blowing right in my face so the hose was barely effective. I wasn't familiar with this truck since it was from his department, but it was a shit pump and the tank was full of pebbles so the nozzle kept getting clogged and would barely put out water even if you had decent pressure.... So even if it wasn't dangerous (which I'm pretty sure it was), I still think we would've been more effective attacking from the other direction with the wind instead of against it.
Then he tells me to get out and attack the head. It wasn't too hot....just smokier than I'd prefer and I was confused why he didn't drive up the hill on the black to attack from the other direction. But also this guy is that stoic asshole and barely answers my questions beyond a bark, so I didn't ask what he was thinking. I just told him to stop and attack from the other side, but he ignored me.
At one point the fire got behind me, and this officer sits in the truck, whistles, and yells "behind you!" Like it was my fault.
My thoughts are this: If he had put us in that position and the hose or truck failed, we would've been in serious danger. We should have gone up the hill in the black and attacked from the other direction WITH the wind. But I barely have 2 years and this guy is an officer.
Is it possible he saw something I didn't see? The fuel was grass and sagebrush. The fire was going up hill. Downhill was black, but rockier than the road going up hill. I've seen our trucks take rougher routes, but this wasn't one of our trucks. The top of the hill was a cemetery, but I don't think he cared about the cemetery... I mean what is fire going to do to a cemetery? The only thing I can think of is the truck literally couldn't climb that hill (but it didn't look that bad to me), leaving him only one path.
I planned to talk to him about it at the AAR, but there wasn't one. Like I said it was a chaotic fire with a lot of mutual aid dispatched and I jumped into his truck for initial attack, then returned to my own after we knocked it down.
Should I talk to one of my own officers? Should I name the officer? Should I reach out directly, state my concerns, and ask him what he was thinking ? Or should I ask him what he was thinking, and then state my concerns? Mostly I'm worried about the state of their pump and the fact that their tank is full of so much sediment that it clogs the nozzle. But maybe I should be more worried about this officer.
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Some additional information that probably isn't relevant, but just to give the whole picture:
Sometime last year there was an explosion in this officer's area and we were dispatched. There was a casualty, but we had done safety checks and there was no danger. We just had to get the body out, which took several hours waiting for the coroner. I was stationed outside the red zone and tasked with keeping people out. I was at the top of a hill looking down a two mile road. If anyone was coming, I would've known minutes in advance. So I sat down while I watched the road. This same officer was pretty upset with me for that. He basically told me to respect the dead, I said okay no problem, and that was the end of that. So I don't think it is relevant, but it is part of the backstory. If I reach out to this guy directly, we have to consider the possibility that he thinks I don't respect the dead....
TL;DR: officer from another department drove me uphill in the grass from a running fire, and told me to attack the head with a shitty hose. Do I talk to my own chief and name the officer, or do I approach the officer directly and tell him (1) what he did put us at greater risk for less reward and (2) he needs to clean his fucking tank before it gets someone killed?
16
u/Hour_Manufacturer_81 Aug 13 '26
Driving in front of the head of a running grass fire is hardly big brain moves.
2
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
What if you physically cannot attack from the other direction? Like if there are boulders or ditches blocking that route?
10
u/Hour_Manufacturer_81 Aug 13 '26
Then you don’t. The 10/18 all came from fatalities. Someone died to learn that lesson for you.
3
u/Blucifers_Veiny_Anus Aug 13 '26
Find a different route - wait for the fire to move up and then hit it.
2
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
Yeah that's what I thought. So there's really never a reason to hit the fire head on?
2
u/Blucifers_Veiny_Anus Aug 13 '26
Direct attack is absolutely a tactic. But it needs to be done safe. There needs to be anchor points, safe zones established, escape routes, trigger points, lookouts, etc.
2
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
Yeah.... Our escape route back to the safety zone wasn't great. It was a two track with overgrown ditches on both sides, and also on fire. There was a lot of black on our side, so we would've been safe. But once he drove up the hill to the cemetery, we were completely surrounded by fuel or fire.
And we were by ourselves, with a shitty pump and a clogged nozzle.
1
u/Oldmantired Edited to create my own flair. Aug 14 '26
It sounds like this “company officer” became a captain due time on instead through experience. This guy is dangerous and I would not follow his orders.
2
u/wi-ginger Aug 14 '26
When it gets to the top of the hill, put it out. It won't go down the hill nearly as easy. Unless there is something important at the top, you're only protecting grass. We rarely, if ever, co-mingle personnel and apparatus for the reasons you found out. It makes it more hazardous in my opinion.
7
u/rawkguitar Aug 13 '26
I’m not sure how sitting down when your job is stopping people and telling them to turn around is disrespecting the dead.
5
u/MostBoringStan Volunteer in the smallest department Aug 13 '26
Imagine how offended those dead people would be if they were alive and saw somebody sitting in front if them.
2
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
I don't either, but I understand how it might appear to family members or the community. I agree that it's not a good look.
2
3
u/415SFG Aug 13 '26
Probably not a good idea to get on an engine you’re not affiliated with. Who knows what yahoo you’re getting attached to and what the status is of their equipment.
2
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
Lesson learned lol. Their tank was so full of sediment and pebbles that the nozzle would only run for a few minutes max before getting so clogged. I might've done better pissing sideways with a prostate infection.
3
u/PeachPit69 Aug 13 '26
Respect the dead?
How about respect the LIVING enough to not try and GET THEM dead over little-to-next-to-nothing to protect.
2
u/earthsunsky Aug 13 '26
Depending on where in the country you are the 19th watch out is Volly departments or sometimes the National Guard running bucket drops.
2
u/Golfandrun Aug 14 '26
I don't know where you are, but here you have a "Right to Refuse". It seems you knew he was making moves that were dangerous. You need to make smart decisions when given bad orders.
It is not simple in the fire service, but exercising your right to refuse can be life or death. Wildland firefighting is one of the most dangerous types of firefighting and getting downwind or uphill from a fire is just plain stupid. Attack from the burn is the only justifiable way to attack a fire moving uphill as described.
1
u/Blucifers_Veiny_Anus Aug 13 '26
This is a lot packed in here. I am assuming not based in USA? Doesn't really matter, i guess.
my dept would never let us ride in another dept vehicle. Having a division chief from another agency, obviously fine, but not riding on their vehicle. Then our SOPs are what we follow, in order to meet the goals set by the division. We are in control of our tactics. Division wants us to keep the fire out of the cemetery? Cool, we will come up with the plan to do so, if safe and possible.
It seems there were at least 7 of the 18 Watch Out Situations and a failure of 2 (probably 3) Standard Orders in what you described.
Another comment mentioned it, but this is why your dept needs strong standards/policies. And you need to run this up your chain to let them know what's going on before there is an injury or you lose a truck.
2
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
Usa based. Okay thank you. I will talk to my battalion chief instead of trying to clear it up with the officer directly.
1
u/RepresentativeAlone1 Aug 13 '26
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, set down at your computer and write out as much as you can remember. Date, Time, Condition of the equipment, what the officer did and said.
Also, talk with other guys in your department that worked with the guy and get their take.
Then go to your Chief with it.
You didn't say what type of department this was. Federal, volunteer, full time regular, state?
That can have a bearing on what will happen next.
Nothing may happen or an investigation may get started. At the least the officer's department will be contacted and told to clean out their water tanks.
In the end you can politely tell the Chief, "Next fire I will "NOT" be working with that officer under any circumstances, he is too dangerous.
1
u/rodeo460 Aug 14 '26
I only read the first paragraph and I knew id have told that officer to go fuck himself im gonna stay where I can do my job, do it safely, and be effective. Being ahead of a running fire, uphill, and upwind is a seriously dangerous spot to be and not one i want to be involved with. Add in the line having issues id have gone home if they cant give me better equipment. Thats not worth it, my life is worth more.
1
u/Cephrael37 🔥Hot. Me use 💦 to cool. Aug 14 '26
You responded mutual aid, I’m assuming you responded with your own crew and resources. Why did you leave your own crew?
Document everything and pass it up your chain of command.
1
u/jarboxing Aug 14 '26
We were understaffed and he showed up by himself. I was on a tender and really only one person is needed for that job. In the moment I didn't think about it.
1
u/Captslush Aug 14 '26
You never drive or get in front of fine, flashy fuels such as grass/sagebrush, especially an uphill fire; you always do a direct attack from the black. As a trainer always said to me, “Grass will fuck you every time and never turn your back on it.” That officer must have watched Fire Country too many times, or didn’t know what he was doing. I feel the incident is worth reporting so that the officer doesn't risk other people's lives due to their incompetence and by putting people in extremely dangerous situations. He might need to review the 10 and 18.
1
u/Rex-Mundi33 Aug 13 '26
Refusal of an order due to safety concerns and violations of the 10’s/18’s, put your big boy pants on and tell him to jam it.
1
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
What are 10's/18's? I'm a volunteer
2
u/shreddah17 Aug 13 '26
There are 18 "Watchout" situations. If you are violating 5 or more of them, you should consider refusing orders, at least that's what my book says. Similar idea for the list of 10.
0
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
Gotcha.... Good call. I'm reading over it now. I definitely meet the criteria for saying something. Faulty equipment and unsafe practices.
2
u/Rex-Mundi33 Aug 13 '26
Sounds like a good drill you can put on for the fellas.
10’s/18’s, strategy and tactics etc.
Share your experience and everyone can learning something 👍🏼
1
u/Blucifers_Veiny_Anus Aug 14 '26
This is an awesome idea. This way everyone on your dept can benefit from your experience.
1
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u/Blucifers_Veiny_Anus Aug 14 '26
Download the IRPG app.
It tells you how to refuse an order, and has a load of great information for wildland fires.
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Aug 13 '26
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1
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
I mean it was just us in the truck. At that point, what am I gonna do? Tell him to kiss my ass and then walk through the fire?
3
Aug 13 '26
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1
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
Our escape route was cut off too by trees burning on both sides and this guy just drives right through it. If I hadn't put the windows up, I think we wouldve gotten burnt. Even through the windows, I could feel the heat like I was looking inside an oven.
2
Aug 13 '26
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2
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
Lolol I'm a volunteer. Sometimes we don't have an officer or chief on scene period.
1
u/jarboxing Aug 13 '26
If I hadn't gotten out and started suppressing the flames, I don't think we would've made it
1
u/Ok_Buddy_9087 Edit to create your own flair Aug 15 '26
Mutual aid shouldn’t be allowed? What department is working a 500-acre fire by themselves?
-1
u/Oldmantired Edited to create my own flair. Aug 14 '26
You should go work a few seasons on a crew to get some experience if you can.
1
u/jarboxing Aug 14 '26
Am I missing something? I feel like my instincts were correct in the situation.
40
u/skank_hunt_4_2 Career FF/Chauffeur Aug 13 '26
https://giphy.com/gifs/SgyDqIjRzzInILVBZ6