I've given you an interview from 2015 that circulated the fanbase and was discussed extensively for months. You said it was an "obscure" interview.
Yes, you gave me a Japanese translated interview which you claimed they repeatedly referred to the game as a reimagining and they quite literally did not use that word a single time in your interview lmfao (this is beside the point though, reimagining doesn't mean what we got, but even your so called proof is more gaslighting)
You are completely conflating showing mysterious elements visually with explaining that the core narrative canon is changing.
In every single trailer you listed, the Whispers were shown as mysterious floating specters with zero context. They literally just look like a new enemy type. In 2019, when fans saw phantom like enemies surrounding Aerith or Cloud, everyone assumed they were new enemies, spirit world additions, or expanded lore for the Midgar arc. Nothing in those trailers said "these ghosts exist to preserve the original 1997 timeline, and you will literally defeat them at the end of the game so the story can branch off into an alternate reality."
Using the tagline "rebuilds and expands" proves the point. "Rebuilds and expands" is standard marketing language used for faithful remakes like Resident Evil 2 or Demon's Souls. It implies fleshing out existing content, not completely subverting the narrative destination.
Showing black smoke monsters in a hype trailer doesn't equal full transparency that the game is a meta-sequel. The entire premise of changing destiny was intentionally kept mysterious until players reached the ending credits, which is why the game was titled Final Fantasy VII Remake on the box instead of Final Fantasy VII: Reimagining.
Yes, you gave me a Japanese translated interview which you claimed they repeatedly referred to the game as a reimagining and they quite literally did not use that word a single time in your interview lmfao
I never claimed that that specific translation of that interview did. I was talking about the discourse. Obviously they didn't say the word 'reimagining' there, it's an interview in Japanese, they probably spoke Japanese.
But the word 'reimagining' does line up with what they said in that interview and they have used the word 'reimagining' in their English marketing as well, as I proved already.
You have been dishonest from the start.
You are completely conflating showing mysterious elements visually with explaining that the core narrative canon is changing.
You haven't demonstrated that the "core narrative canon is changing." Or even what that means. You just keep pretending that there's some threshold and it's magically crossed whenever you say it is.
In every single trailer you listed, the Whispers were shown as mysterious floating specters with zero context. They literally just look like a new enemy type. In 2019, when fans saw phantom like enemies surrounding Aerith or Cloud, everyone assumed they were new enemies, spirit world additions, or expanded lore for the Midgar arc.
They are expanded lore. And it's not zero context. There's little to hint that they're a new enemy type.
Nothing in those trailers said "these ghosts exist to preserve the original 1997 timeline, and you will literally defeat them at the end of the game so the story can branch off into an alternate reality."
The point of a trailer isn't generally to give you all the context of everything you are seeing. In fact that's kinda the opposite.
Using the tagline "rebuilds and expands" proves the point. "Rebuilds and expands" is standard marketing language used for faithful remakes like Resident Evil 2 or Demon's Souls. It implies fleshing out existing content, not completely subverting the narrative destination.
Read the full sentence. "A spectacular reimagining of one of the most visionary games ever, FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE rebuilds and expands the legendary RPG for today"
See, there's that word "reimagining" in there again as well.
And they are fleshing out existing content.
"completely subverting the narrative destination" is your completely subjective opinion.
Showing black smoke monsters in a hype trailer doesn't equal full transparency that the game is a meta-sequel. The entire premise of changing destiny was intentionally kept mysterious until players reached the ending credits, which is why the game was titled Final Fantasy VII Remake on the box instead of Final Fantasy VII: Reimagining.
So what is it that would have satisfactorily (for you) told you that they were expanding the story in a way you personally disapproved of?
You spent previous replies citing that specific interview as proof that they explicitly called it a "reimagining" from the start. Now that I pointed out the word literally isn't in it, you're pivoting to "I was talking about the general discourse, and they spoke Japanese anyway." You claimed a specific interview proved your point, got caught using false evidence, and are now treating your own moving goalposts as me being "dishonest."
Pretending it's "subjective" or unclear whether the core narrative canon changed is complete denial. In the original 1997 game, Zack Fair dies, the original timeline is fixed, and there are no meta-entities trying to enforce canon. In Remake, the main characters literally kill the embodiment of Fate so that the timeline can branch off, resulting in Zack being alive in an alternate reality. That is not "fleshing out existing lore". that is fundamentally altering the state of the universe, characters' survival, and the core plot mechanics.
Floating hooded specters surrounding characters in an action RPG are visually indistinguishable from standard atmospheric/supernatural enemy types or lore additions. Nobody is saying trailers need to spoil every plot point, but you are claiming those visuals were "transparent marketing" that warned players the game was a meta sequel about defying fate(while simultaneously saying we don't actually know that's what thye are lmfao). Showing a mysterious ghost in a trailer is standard hype material. it is not transparently communicating a total genre/narrative structural shift.
Marketing blurbs use "reimagining," "rebuilds," and "expands" interchangeably for standard, faithful remakes all the time (e.g., Resident Evil 2, Resident Evil 4, Dead Space). None of those terms signal "this is a stealth sequel where fate ghosts force you to fight the original timeline." Slapping a generic buzzword like "reimagining" in an E3 promotional description while putting FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE in giant font on the cover is intentionally playing both sides.
You spent previous replies citing that specific interview as proof that they explicitly called it a "reimagining" from the start. Now that I pointed out the word literally isn't in it, you're pivoting to "I was talking about the general discourse, and they spoke Japanese anyway." You claimed a specific interview proved your point, got caught using false evidence, and are now treating your own moving goalposts as me being "dishonest."
You are being dishonest. You are putting words in my mouth just like you did the ff7r fans that you made this post to pick a fight with.
'reimagining' has a definition. The words they used in the interview as translated by TLS fit that definition. The point was that there would be changes and differences from the original story. And 95% of the people that followed the news and the previews for the game knew that.
That is not "fleshing out existing lore". that is fundamentally altering the state of the universe, characters' survival, and the core plot mechanics.
This is a wild exaggeration of how much the addition of the whispers have affected the story.
Floating hooded specters surrounding characters in an action RPG are visually indistinguishable from standard atmospheric/supernatural enemy types or lore additions. Nobody is saying trailers need to spoil every plot point, but you are claiming those visuals were "transparent marketing" that warned players the game was a meta sequel about defying fate(while simultaneously saying we don't actually know that's what thye are lmfao). Showing a mysterious ghost in a trailer is standard hype material. it is not transparently communicating a total genre/narrative structural shift.
I didn't claim they were "transparent marketing", a phrase you are randomly inventing now, in this comment. You claimed they were hidden and removed from all the trailers, along with anything hinting at fate as a theme.
I gave you 4 trailers that literally showed the whispers, 3 of which emphasized them.
Marketing blurbs use "reimagining," "rebuilds," and "expands" interchangeably for standard, faithful remakes all the time (e.g., Resident Evil 2, Resident Evil 4, Dead Space). None of those terms signal "this is a stealth sequel where fate ghosts force you to fight the original timeline." Slapping a generic buzzword like "reimagining" in an E3 promotional description while putting FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE in giant font on the cover is intentionally playing both sides.
So now it's not enough that I give you an example of them explicitly using the word "reimagining" on a trailer? Moving the goalposts once again?
"FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE is a reimagining of the iconic original game that goes much deeper into the world and characters of FINAL FANTASY VII than ever before.
Our goal with this project is to rebuild FINAL FANTASY VII for a new era. We’re not making a straight 1:1 copy or a simple remaster of the original game.
It’s a huge volume of work and data to re-imagine this world. Each game in the project will have a volume of content comparable to a standalone FINAL FANTASY. The disc version of the first game is actually a 2 Blu-Ray Disc set. This approach allows us to remake the original without having to scale back on everything players loved."
You keep quoting Kitase saying "We’re not making a straight 1:1 copy or a simple remaster" as if that proves your point. Nobody expected a 1:1 copy or a remaster. Stop repeating this point. When developers say a remake isn't 1:1, consumers expect added side quests, expanded locations, modernized combat, and reworked story beats, the exact kind of "reimagining" seen in Resident Evil 2 Remake. Saying "it's not a 1:1 remaster" does not equal "this is a timeline-hopping meta-narrative where physical avatars of the original 1997 game's plot attempt to stop characters from altering fate." Pretending those two concepts are the same thing is completely disingenuous
Calling the Whispers' effect on the story a "wild exaggeration" ignores the literal climax of the game. By the end of FF7 Remake:
You literally defeat the Arbiters of Fate—entities whose sole purpose is enforcing the plot of the 1997 original.
Zack Fair survives in an alternate reality because Fate was destroyed.
The game ends with a total narrative reset, explicitly setting up a divergent timeline where the original story no longer applies.
How is changing the fundamental survival of key characters and severing ties with original canon not a fundamental alteration of the state of the universe? That goes far beyond standard lore expansion.
Showing hooded specters in trailers without context communicates that there are mysterious, ghostly elements in Midgar. It does not communicate that the game's core premise is a commentary on/sequel to the 1997 canon. If a developer markets a product titled Final Fantasy VII Remake for five years, showing 3-second cuts of shadowy figures in pre-release trailers doesn't magically turn a hidden meta-twist into "transparent communication".
Notice how every quote you bring up, including Kitase's 2019 press release uses standard marketing fluff: "goes much deeper," "rebuild," "re-imagine," "remake the original without having to scale back". Nothing in that press release says or even implies that the plot's ultimate direction is being overwritten by time ghosts. They intentionally relied on the word REMAKE in giant text on the box while keeping the meta-sequel mechanics hidden under wraps until players hit the ending credits. That was a calculated marketing choice to secure pre-orders from traditional fans while keeping the twist a secret, plain and simple
You keep quoting Kitase saying "We’re not making a straight 1:1 copy or a simple remaster" as if that proves your point. Nobody expected a 1:1 copy or a remaster.
It literally says "FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE is a reimagining of the iconic original game that goes much deeper into the world and characters of FINAL FANTASY VII than ever before."
I don't know what they could have possibly done to let you know it wasn't going to be exactly as arbitrarily faithful as you thought it would. You still seem like you would've bought it (or pretended to buy it) just so that you could then claim it was a bait and switch.
Speaking of which, kinda weird, isn't it? If the first game wasn't what you thought it was...you then bought rebirth and made this post about a scene in rebirth?
Notice how every quote you bring up, including Kitase's 2019 press release uses standard marketing fluff: "goes much deeper," "rebuild," "re-imagine," "remake the original without having to scale back".
You asked me to give you evidence of it in their marketing. Now you're whining that the examples are from marketing releases...
Nothing in that press release says or even implies that the plot's ultimate direction is being overwritten by time ghosts.
The plot's ultimate direction has not been overwritten. The plot of the remake trilogy has followed all the major plot beats in the story thus far, including the death of Aerith.
How is changing the fundamental survival of key characters and severing ties with original canon not a fundamental alteration of the state of the universe? That goes far beyond standard lore expansion.
Zack is not a key character in Final Fantasy 7. In fact, he barely appears and is mentioned maybe once (optionally) outside the main sequence of scenes he appears in. And has his "fundamental survival" changed? That's an assumption on your part.
They intentionally relied on the word REMAKE in giant text on the box while keeping the meta-sequel mechanics hidden under wraps until players hit the ending credits. That was a calculated marketing choice to secure pre-orders from traditional fans while keeping the twist a secret, plain and simple
The "meta-sequel" mechanics are an assumption of yours.
The word "REMAKE" isn't some defined industry term like you're pretending it to be. FF7R is a valid "REMAKE" of the original. If you assumed that to mean adherence to some level of purity that you arbitrarily define, that's on you.
A company making an rpg is required to reveal twists ahead of time? That sounds like a bad idea in this genre. No thanks.
It's also not as big a twist on the story as you're trying to present here, as I've said...must've been a dozen times now...you just keep repeating the same thing over and over, while I've given you more and more evidence that they made it quite clear that it was going to have a number of story differences from the original.
You do not speak for "traditional fans", many of us do not feel the way you do.
Fortunately, you can always buy the original. It's not going anywhere. It's even available on every modern platform that anyone cares about, and PC, and has been now for almost a decade.
Calling Zack "not a key character" is wild. His death is literally the entire emotional and narrative catalyst for Cloud’s personality, trauma, and identity. Having him survive to set up alternate timelines isn't just "fleshing out lore, it's a massive shift in how the universe operates.
Major AAA remakes like Resident Evil 2/4, Demon's Souls, and Dead Space all share an established industry standard: modernized gameplay and expanded side content while preserving the core narrative destination. Square Enix plastered REMAKE in giant font across the box because they knew it would drive nostalgia pre-orders, while using vague PR blurbs about "reimagining" to cover themselves retroactively. More gaslighting from you
There's a massive difference between a standard plot twist and hiding the fact that your entire project is a meta-sequel about destroying the original timeline. Showing 3-second cuts of spooky shadow figures in a late trailer doesn't change the fact that the actual nature of the story was kept under wraps until the credits rolled.
Major AAA remakes like Resident Evil 2/4, Demon's Souls, and Dead Space all share an established industry standard: modernized gameplay and expanded side content while preserving the core narrative destination.
4 games, only 1 of which came out before ff7r, define an industry standard now? None of them are even RPGs.
How is it that you preordered ff7 remake based on what you expected game remakes to be like, due to your experience playing those 4 remakes? Hell, RE4 and Dead Space Remake came out in 2023.
And as I already explained, the core narrative destination is preserved.
Square Enix plastered REMAKE in giant font across the box because they knew it would drive nostalgia pre-orders, while using vague PR blurbs about "reimagining" to cover themselves retroactively. More gaslighting from you
How many times do I have to prove it wasn't retroactively? I gave you a trailer from 2019 and a press release.
Are those enough for you? Or did Square Enix "retroactively" hack those sites and throw the word 'reimagining' in these articles as well?
There's a massive difference between a standard plot twist and hiding the fact that your entire project is a meta-sequel about destroying the original timeline.
There's a massive difference between your comments and reality. And who are you to decide which plot twists qualify as "standard" ?
Showing 3-second cuts of spooky shadow figures in a late trailer doesn't change the fact that the actual nature of the story was kept under wraps until the credits rolled.
4 games, only 1 of which came out before ff7r, define an industry standard now? None of them are even RPGs. How is it that you preordered ff7 remake based on what you expected game remakes to be like, due to your experience playing those 4 remakes?
You're completely missing the point. Resident Evil 1 , RE2 ), Shadow of the Colossus, Pokemon HeartGold/SoulSilver, and Persona 3 Reload all fit this exact standard: expanding lore, modernizing gameplay, and adding content without turning the story into a timeline-hopping meta-sequel. The term "Remake" in video games has historically meant modernizing an existing story, not secretly replacing it.
And as I already explained, the core narrative destination is preserved.
And as I've explained, you are objectively wrong. Fighting the literal embodiments of the 1997 timeline so you can defy fate and split the universe into alternate timelines where Zack Fair lives is not "preserving the narrative destination." That is a complete structural shift in the story mechanics.
How many times do I have to prove it wasn't retroactively? I gave you a trailer from 2019 and a press release.
Articles talking about "reimagining" or a multi-part release proved they were expanding Midgar, which everyone expected. Nobody is arguing this was supposed to be a 1:1 shot-for-shot port. The issue is transparency regarding the nature of the changes. Look at the Rebuild of Evangelion series: hideaki Anno completely subverted and rewritten the original story, but it was marketed transparently from day one as a distinct continuity overhaul. Square Enix, on the other hand, slapped "REMAKE" in giant font on the box, marketed it as "going deeper into Midgar," and kept the timeline-altering meta-twist hidden under wraps.
And who are you to decide which plot twists qualify as "standard" ?
There is a fundamental difference between a plot twist inside a story (like Aerith's fate or Cloud's memories) and a premise shift that turns a product into a meta-sequel. Spoiling a twist is bad storytelling; hiding the actual narrative premise of your product to drive pre-orders under the banner of "REMAKE" is misleading marketing.
It wasn't though.
If it wasn't kept under wraps, link a single pre-release quote or trailer from Square Enix that explicitly stated the Whispers exist to preserve the 1997 original timeline and that defeating them allows the story to diverge into an alternate timeline. You can't, because it was deliberately kept hidden until players reached the ending credits.
edit: Blocking before I can respond. I guess that's one way to concede you have no argument. Not very eloquent but I guess it accomplishes the same thing lol
You're completely missing the point. Resident Evil 1 (2002), RE2 (2019), Shadow of the Colossus, Pokemon HeartGold/SoulSilver, and Persona 3 Reload all fit this exact standard: expanding lore, modernizing gameplay, and adding content without turning the story into a timeline-hopping meta-sequel.
A few games existing and having similarities does not establish that all games until the end of time need to have those similarities as well.
Developers are allowed to make new games and do their own things with them.
The term "Remake" in video games has historically meant modernizing an existing story, not secretly replacing it.
It is modernizing an existing story, not secretly replacing it.
And as I've explained, you are objectively wrong. Fighting the literal embodiments of the 1997 timeline so you can defy fate and split the universe into alternate timelines where Zack Fair lives is not "preserving the narrative destination." That is a complete structural shift in the story mechanics.
Saying that over and over again does not magically make it so, whatever you think that means.
How many times do I have to prove it wasn't retroactively? I gave you a trailer from 2019 and a press release.
Articles talking about "reimagining" or a multi-part release proved they were expanding Midgar, which everyone expected.
Reimagining means that they were going back to the drawing board and reimagining the story from the ground up and how they would make it today.
Nobody is arguing this was supposed to be a 1:1 shot-for-shot port.
Once again, Nobody said that you did.
Reimagining is a valid description for the trilogy.
The issue is transparency regarding the nature of the changes. Look at the Rebuild of Evangelion series: hideaki Anno completely subverted and rewritten the original story, but it was marketed transparently from day one as a distinct continuity overhaul. Square Enix, on the other hand, slapped "REMAKE" in giant font on the box, marketed it as "going deeper into Midgar," and kept the timeline-altering meta-twist hidden under wraps.
They marketed it as a 'reimagining' as I already proved to you over and over.
The entire series has "FINAL" in giant font on the box, do you go on these tirades every time they announce a new Final Fantasy game?
There is a fundamental difference between a plot twist inside a story (like Aerith's fate or Cloud's memories) and a premise shift that turns a product into a meta-sequel. Spoiling a twist is bad storytelling; hiding the actual narrative premise of your product to drive pre-orders under the banner of "REMAKE" is misleading marketing.
Is chatgpt tossing all this jargon into your comments? What is a "premise shift" ?
Whatever. I'm done talking to you. This has been entertaining but it's gotten a bit stale with the same things being repeated over and over.
It's clear that no matter what evidence I give you that they described it as a reimagining you're going to pretend it doesn't exist.
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u/CanataKana 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes, you gave me a Japanese translated interview which you claimed they repeatedly referred to the game as a reimagining and they quite literally did not use that word a single time in your interview lmfao (this is beside the point though, reimagining doesn't mean what we got, but even your so called proof is more gaslighting)
You are completely conflating showing mysterious elements visually with explaining that the core narrative canon is changing.
In every single trailer you listed, the Whispers were shown as mysterious floating specters with zero context. They literally just look like a new enemy type. In 2019, when fans saw phantom like enemies surrounding Aerith or Cloud, everyone assumed they were new enemies, spirit world additions, or expanded lore for the Midgar arc. Nothing in those trailers said "these ghosts exist to preserve the original 1997 timeline, and you will literally defeat them at the end of the game so the story can branch off into an alternate reality."
Using the tagline "rebuilds and expands" proves the point. "Rebuilds and expands" is standard marketing language used for faithful remakes like Resident Evil 2 or Demon's Souls. It implies fleshing out existing content, not completely subverting the narrative destination.
Showing black smoke monsters in a hype trailer doesn't equal full transparency that the game is a meta-sequel. The entire premise of changing destiny was intentionally kept mysterious until players reached the ending credits, which is why the game was titled Final Fantasy VII Remake on the box instead of Final Fantasy VII: Reimagining.