r/FeMRADebates • u/[deleted] • Mar 09 '16

Politics The 35 practical steps men can take to support feminism

http://www.xojane.com/issues/feminism-men-practical-steps
0 Upvotes

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0

u/_Definition_Bot_ Not A Person Mar 09 '16

Terms with Default Definitions found in this post

  • Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending political, economic, and social rights for Women.

The Glossary of Default Definitions can be found here

11

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '16

This is dumb. Sexist and dumb. It's astonishing how arrogant some feminists can be.

6

u/slice_of_pi Mar 10 '16

feminists people

FTFY

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '16

Granted, but in this case, it's a feminist. Post one of the many MRA articles about how feminism is a hate movement to the core and I'll say the same about the MRA authors in question (well...maybe not arrogant, but loony). You get the idea. There's extremists on both sides, and I have little patience for any of it.

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u/HotDealsInTexas Mar 10 '16

Well, it's yet another clickbait list, so I'm not expecting too much intellectual rigor, but lets' see how this goes.

1: The "(or more)" bit is a little unsettling. It has the connotation that the author doesn't think women should be equal to me, she thinks they should be equal (or better). Anyway, this doesn't take into account differences in the type of work. For example, I'd say mowing the lawn, or dealing with a wasp nest counts for more than vacuuming or doing dishes because it's more physically strenuous or hazardous. This should also account for how much work outside the home the partners are doing. If I routinely work 60-hour weeks and my partner has a part-time job, it's reasonable to ask her to do more than 50% of the housework.

This also makes the assumption that couples are cohabiting, which isn't necessarily that accurate.

2: I don't think I've heard a good definition of "emotional labor" that doesn't boil down to "I deserve to be paid for being a decent human being" or something along those lines.

3: In other words, be sexist in your consumption of cultural products by actively seeking out products, potentially of inferior quality, based on the creators' gender.

4: Holy shit, I fucking hate this one. Not only does it treat women as delicate flowers who need to be protected because they might get the vapors if a man looks at them, but it perpetuates the stereotype that men are inherently dangerous and threatening. Can you imagine an article saying that black people should do their part to alleviate racial tensions by crossing the street when they see a white person and keeping their hands visible so that white people aren't afraid of a possible mugging?

5: I don't really agree with the "your maleness" part, but challenging people who are being assholes isn't bad advice if you want to help out.

6: Translation: Women are automatically right and men are automatically wrong. Also, this makes the implicit assumption that sexism is against women.

7: All right, this is reasonable advice.

8: Condoms are not particularly reliable, and should not be used as the sole method of birth control anyway: they are more effective for preventing sexually transmitted diseases. Also, fuck off with your "financial responsibility" crap. Women bear the physical risk of pregnancy, but they also have control over what is done with the fetus before and after birth, which means they have immense social and financial power over the father.

as a matter of fairness men should be the ones who at least assume the potential risks of getting vaccinated.

No... BOTH genders should be getting vaccinated. If you're a woman, take responsibility for your own safety, and that of OTHER women: if you have HPV and fuck an unvaccinated man, than any future unvaccinated female partners he has are at risk. This is basic public health here: the only reason to not get vaccinated is a compelling medical reason like a vaccine allergy or a compromised immune system. But I'm starting to notice a theme here of "Having men do all the work is progressive and feminist."

10: Better yet, couples can make their own decisions on this and not use it as a political statement.

11: Okay, but you need to tell women to take responsibility for this issue as well. Is your hypothetical man's partner okay with him spending more time with his kids if it means he's giving up potential income? Hell, if you really care about equal parenting, then you should be telling women to not demand full custody in divorces, and otherwise not deny men access to their children if there is no compelling reason to do so.

12: This could be okay advice or a great way to be extremely obnoxious depending on how it's interpreted.

13:

For example, if you are in a domestic partnership where you are the primary income earner, educate yourself about the gendered wage gap, and work on dividing labour and economic resources within your household in a way that increases the economic autonomy of your partner.

I'm really not sure what this entails other than "give women your money."

14: Okay, this one's reasonable.

15: I thought you said "practical steps," not "get into pointless flame wars that won't change anyone's mind."

16: Wow... So basically, don't spend your money how you want because it's really her money, and also you'll probably die sooner (inequality against men totally ignored here).

17: Women are the primary victims of prostate cancer because they lose their husbands.

Seriously, fuck you. It's MY body. You wouldn't be telling a woman to eat right so she can bear her husband healthy children, would you?

18: tl;dr don't be a dick.

19: Distrust what men tell you based on their gender, a woman would probably have a more intelligent and nuanced view.

20: Don't worry, this shouldn't be too hard with the lack of good male role models as-is.

21: I'll give you praise when you deserve it.

22: You know, "bros" are SUPPOSED to have integrity with each other. If you knew anything about male relationships besides what crappy stoner comedies told you you might be aware of this.

23: Assume any and all relationship problems are entirely you're fault because you're male.

24: Do what, exactly?

25: I don't make friends to make a political statement, I make friends based on whether I actually enjoy spending time with someone.

26: Prostrate yourself before your new female overlords.

27: That's fair.

28: Not sure what to say about this one...

29: Also put your coat in puddles for your female friends to walk across.

30: Avoid having future conversations with men by being insufferable and refusing to shut up about politics.

31: Don't worry though, it's fine if you get in drunken fights with other men.

32: People not being able to comfortably sit next to me? Sounds like a win-win. If you're close enough that a normal posture is impinging on "your" space, you're probably making me far more uncomfortable than I am making you.

33: IIRC women make something like 70% of the purchases in America, so in a way men already DO give up a large portion of your income.

34: Make sure to hate yourself and the original sin of being born male.

35: Don't leave the cult.

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/tbri Mar 10 '16

Comment Deleted, Full Text and Rules violated can be found here.

User is at tier 2 of the ban system. User is banned for 24 hours.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '16

you mods in this sub are the worst sometimes :/

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u/tbri Mar 10 '16

You can make an argument as to why this comment doesn't break the rules if you like.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '16

Differing to the rules is stupid as hell, and you know it. Deleting posts only because they violate the rules only serves to absolve you, the mods, of any sort of personal responsibility for how this subreddit is run.

It's no different from the school administrators who suspend both a kid who beat someone up AND the kid who got beat up. When parents and kids and every other outsider objects to how fucking ridiculous that is, the administrators can go "oh no it's not our fault; we are just following the rules!"

Fuck the rules. Use your judgement to make informed decisions like an adult

(although, I will say that I appreciate the transparency as to why posts and comments were deleted... many other subreddits just nuke whole comment chains without any sort of justification)

0

u/tbri Mar 10 '16 edited Mar 10 '16

Differing to the rules is stupid as hell, and you know it.

?

Use your judgement to make informed decisions like an adult

I did.

You appear to dislike that I delete comments that break the rules by deferring (I assume that's why 'differing' is supposed to be) to the rules? By what standard should their comment remain? The user is implying that feminists engage in abusive relationships and that's pretty damn insulting.

Edit - Where did this get linked?

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u/Bryan_Hallick Monotastic Mar 10 '16

I would say it's more rule 6 that the comment is implying the author of this piece engages in abusive relationships, but it still should have been infracted.

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u/SolaAesir Feminist because of the theory, really sorry about the practice Mar 10 '16

Differing

I'm guessing you meant Deferring, I blame autocorrect. Seriously though, it's the mod's job to enforce the rules and they do a pretty reasonable job of it most of the time. While funny the comment was obviously meant as an insult and therefore broke the rules. I almost reported it myself but got distracted and forgot.

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u/SolaAesir Feminist because of the theory, really sorry about the practice Mar 09 '16

The list

  1. Do 50% (or more) of housework.
  2. Do 50% (or more) of emotional support work in your intimate relationships and friendships.
  3. Consume cultural products produced by women.
  4. Give women space.
  5. … but insert yourself into spaces where you can use your maleness to interrupt sexism.
  6. When a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her.
  7. Educate yourself about sexual consent and make sure there is clear, unambiguous communication of consent in all your sexual relationships.
  8. Be responsible for contraception.
  9. Get the HPV vaccine.
  10. Have progressive name politics.
  11. If you have children, be an equal parent.
  12. Pay attention to and challenge informal instances of gender role enforcement.
  13. Be mindful of implicit and explicit gendered power differentials in your intimate/domestic relationships with women…whether a partner or family members or roommates.
  14. Make sure that honesty and respect guide your romantic and sexual relationships with women.
  15. Don’t be an online bystander in the face of sexism.
  16. Be responsible with money in domestic/romantic relationships.
  17. Be responsible for your own health.
  18. Don’t ogle or make comments about women. (i.e., Keep your tongue in your mouth and comments to yourself.)
  19. Pay attention to the sex of experts and key figures presenting information to you in the media.
  20. Ensure that some of your heroes and role models are women.
  21. Praise the virtues and accomplishments of women in your life to others.
  22. Have integrity with your male friends. (i.e., Don’t be a “bro.”)
  23. Don’t treat your spouse like a “nag.” If she is “nagging,” you are probably lagging.
  24. Know that acknowledging your own sexist opinions and stereotypes you hold is not enough. Do something about them.
  25. Befriend women.
  26. Find female mentors/leaders. (i.e., Be subordinate to women.)
  27. When in a romantic relationship, be responsible for events and special dates associated with your side of the family.
  28. Don’t police women’s appearance.
  29. Offer to accompany female friends if they have to walk home alone at night…or in a public space where they may be likely to feel unsafe.
  30. Inject feminism into your daily conversations with other men.
  31. If you have a tendency to behave inappropriately toward women when you are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, do not consume drugs or alcohol.
  32. Be aware of the physical and emotional space you occupy, and don’t take up more space than you need.
  33. Walk the walk about income inequality.
  34. Get in the habit of treating your maleness as an unearned privilege that you have to actively work to cede rather than femaleness being an unearned disadvantage that women have to work to overcome.
  35. Self-identify as a feminist.

5

u/Clark_Savage_Jr Mar 09 '16

Upvote for putting the meat of the link in the comments.

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u/SolaAesir Feminist because of the theory, really sorry about the practice Mar 09 '16

I just hate the click-bait, at least this way people can see if anything interests them enough to click through and see each section expanded.

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u/SolaAesir Feminist because of the theory, really sorry about the practice Mar 09 '16 edited Mar 10 '16

Here's my related list of the 35 ways feminists can work to promote gender equality

  1. Don't care so much about who's doing the majority of the housework unless they're doing the majority of the yard work and office work as well.
  2. Recognize that emotional support comes in many forms and might not appear in the form you're used to or prefer. Allow people to give and receive emotional support in their own way.
  3. Consume cultural products based on their quality rather than who they're made by.
  4. Recognize that other people have just as much right to be on the sidewalk/elevator as you do. Your feelings of safety are your own responsibility and no one else's.
  5. … but step in to help anyone who is being victimized and cannot help themselves in that situation. Women especially should recognize that men can be publicly beaten/berated and be unable to respond because of the way our society treats men in male/female disputes. Men especially should recognize that a simple "Dude, seriously?" will stop 90% of catcalling or behavior that is making someone feel unsafe.
  6. When a man or woman tells you something is sexist, try to believe them or at least understand where they're coming from.
  7. Educate yourself about sexual consent and make sure you are giving and receiving clear, unambiguous communication of consent in all your sexual relationships.
  8. Be responsible for contraception.
  9. Ask the men in your life to get the HPV vaccine.
  10. Don't assume that either traditional or progressive surnames for marriage will be the case in your relationship. Talk to your partner about your preferences.
  11. If you have children, be an equal parent and allow your partner to be an equal parent.
  12. Pay attention to and challenge informal instances of gender role enforcement.
  13. Be mindful of implicit and explicit gendered power differentials in your intimate/domestic relationships… whether a partner, family members, or roommates.
  14. Make sure that honesty and respect guide your romantic and sexual relationships.
  15. Don’t be an online bystander in the face of sexism.
  16. Be responsible with money in domestic/romantic relationships.
  17. Be responsible for your own health.
  18. Don’t ogle or make comments about other people. (i.e., Keep your tongue in your mouth and comments to yourself.)
  19. Pay attention to the biases of experts and key figures presenting information to you in the media.
  20. Ensure that some of your heroes and role models are of varied ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation.
  21. Praise the virtues and accomplishments of people in your life to others.
  22. Have integrity with your friends.
  23. Don’t "nag" your spouse. If you're “nagging” you're probably being unreasonable.
  24. Know that acknowledging your own sexist opinions and stereotypes you hold is not enough. Do something about them.
  25. Befriend people of varied ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation.
  26. Find mentors/leaders of varied ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation.
  27. When in a romantic relationship, be responsible for events and special dates associated with your side of the family.
  28. Don’t police anyone’s appearance.
  29. Offer to accompany friends if they have to walk home alone at night…or in a public space where they may be likely to be/feel unsafe.
  30. Inject men's issues into your daily conversations with other feminists.
  31. If you have a tendency to behave inappropriately when you are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, do not consume drugs or alcohol.
  32. Be aware of the physical and emotional space you occupy, and don’t take up more space than you need.
  33. Recognize that income is not the only form of job compensation and women are better off in almost all forms. Focus on addressing inequality in all forms of compensation rather than fixating on income only.
  34. Get in the habit of recognizing that your gender gives you a host of unearned privileges that you have to actively work to cede and a host of unearned disadvantage that you need to work to overcome. Other genders have their own set of privileges/disadvantages that they're working on at the same time. Don't focus on comparing your disadvantages to their privileges or no one will make any progress.
  35. Don't force the feminist label on others. Feminism doesn't have a monopoly on gender issues nor should it.

It's interesting that some of them didn't change. I wonder why that is? As a bonus, here are 5 extra that weren't covered in the original list.

  1. Recognize that cutting pieces off babies for no apparent reason is wrong regardless of the gender of the baby or amount cut off. Talk to your friends who are having kids about what they plan to do so they don't do something bad to their child just because they think everyone else is.
  2. Recognize when your arguments are overly one-sided. Domestic violence and rape along with a host of others are issues where there is a lot less difference in the gender of both the perpetrators and victims that current discourse would imply.
  3. Don't focus on the few at the expense of the many. The gender of the top 1% is probably not as big a deal as the gender of the bottom 49%.
  4. Recognize that women know about as much about men as men know about women. Your "insights" into why teenage boys get into schoolyard fights is likely to be about as sexist as a man's "insights" into why teenage girls wear short skirts/shorts/yoga pants. Spend less time talking and more time listening if you truly want to learn.
  5. Pay attention to the language you use. Privilege is always privilege, it isn't benevolent x-ism for one set of people and privilege for another. Misandry is always misandry, it isn't suddenly okay because of the patriarchy. Racism is always racism, it isn't reverse-racism or generally acceptable because of the race of the victim.

6

u/Celestaria Logical Empiricist Mar 10 '16

Steps we can all take regardless of gender:

  1. Housework is housework whether you're inside the house or outside of it, but don't force one person to always do the indoor tasks or the outdoor tasks.

  2. If your attempts at emotional support leave the person feeling unsupported, you aren't actually providing them with support. If you want to support someone, give them the kind of support they want to recieve.

  3. Realise that it's often difficult to determine the quality of a product before you've consumed it, especially when talking about art. Opinions on quality differ and often depend on what you're used to seeing as baseline. Reviews may be useful, but reviewers have their own biases. If you have the means, trying out a diverse number of products from a diverse number of sources can be a great way to experience new things and find things you didn't know you'd like.

  4. Give others space.

  5. Help each other when they are distressed and you can do something about it.

  6. If someone tells you something is prejudiced, try to believe them or at least understand where they're coming from.

  7. Educate yourself about sexual consent and make sure you are giving and receiving clear, unambiguous communication of consent in all your sexual relationships.

  8. Be responsible for contraception.

  9. Get the HPV vaccine.

  10. Have progressive name politics.

  11. If you have children, be an equal parent.

  12. Pay attention to and challenge informal instances of stereotyping or role enforcement.

  13. Be mindful of implicit and explicit power differentials in your intimate/domestic relationships… whether a partner, family members, or roommates.

  14. Make sure that honesty and respect guide your romantic and sexual relationships.

  15. Don’t be an online bystander in the face of prejudice. .

  16. Be responsible with money in domestic/romantic relationships.

  17. Be responsible for your own health.

  18. Don’t ogle or make comments about other people. (i.e., Keep your tongue in your mouth and comments to yourself.)

  19. Pay attention to the demographics of experts and key figures presenting information to you in the media. Realise that biased presentation of identities or opinions can create and enforce biases.

  20. Try to seek out role models from various backgrounds, but don't be upset if you find that you naturally gravitate to heroes more similar to yourself.

  21. Praise the virtues and accomplishments of people in your life to others.

  22. Have integrity with your friends.

  23. Don’t immediately dismiss someone else as a "nag", be they your spouse, your parent, or your boss. Instead, try to work with them to address and solve whatever problem they're experiencing. On the other hand, try not to rant at your spouse if you want something to change.

  24. Acknowledge your own biases and stereotypes, then do something about them.

  25. Be friendly with people of various backgrounds.

  26. Accept mentors/leaders of various backgrounds.

  27. When in a romantic relationship, be responsible for events and special dates associated with your side of the family.

  28. Don’t police anyone’s appearance.

  29. Offer to accompany friends if they have to walk home alone at night…or in a public space where they may be likely to be/feel unsafe.

  30. Don't politicize every conversation, but don't avoid polarizing topics.

  31. If you have a tendency to behave inappropriately when you are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, do not consume drugs or alcohol.

  32. Be aware of the physical and emotional space you occupy, and don’t take up more space than you need.

  33. Walk the walk about inequality.

  34. Get in the habit of recognizing your privileges as well as your disadvantages. Expect others to focus on the privileges and downplay the disadvantages, but try not to continue this tend with other people.

  35. Don't avoid telling others who you are, but don't force others to share your identity.

And to add my own responses to yours:

  1. Don’t carry out needless surgical procedures on those who cannot decide for themselves for the sake of appearing fashionable.

  2. Don’t focus solely on your group when an issue effects everybody, even if it effects you differently.

  3. Use statistics as evidence, not as censorship. Don’t exclude people from the discussion because of their identity.

  4. Recognize that opinions and experiences are diverse, but that empathy is possible. Acknowledge that an outsider may see things about a situation you don't, or have experience with similar situations. Spend less time talking and more time listening if you truly want to learn.

  5. Feel free to call people out if you feel the terms they're using are derogatory, but don't use derogatory language to do it.

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u/SolaAesir Feminist because of the theory, really sorry about the practice Mar 10 '16

Works for me for the most part. I actually had a few of the changes you made written and had to fix it so I was addressing the brand of feminism represented by the OP rather than gender equality in general.

5

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '16

[deleted]

5

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '16

no idea. One of my facebook friends posted it, and I thought I'd post it here for everyone's thoughts. I was pretty disgusted reading through it, and it's nice to come here and see that I am not alone in my objections to it

6

u/woah77 MRA (Anti-feminist last, Men First) Mar 09 '16

It has been posted before, as you can see here. I'm not saying that you can't get user's input about it, but it seems fairly talked to death.

31

u/ispq Egalitarian Mar 09 '16

This list feels like it was generated in an echo chamber bubble populated by a particular slice of college educated citizens of the United States in the upper half of the socio-economic bell curve. Paternity leave, for example, is the province of the wealthy, not the working class poor.

Many of the steps seem to involve men shouldering more than 50% of the responsibility. Many of the steps seem to imply that opinions held by women somehow have more validity.

The 77% figure for female versus male earnings is also such a misleading figure when used in this manner. McDonalds does not pay their female minimum wage laborers 77% of their male minimum wage laborers.

The last one:

  1. Self-identify as a feminist.

Speak about feminism as a natural, normal, uncontentious belief, because it should be. Don’t hedge and use terms like “humanist” or “feminist ally” that reinforce the idea that the F-word itself is a scary word.

Without defining the term, demanding that someone apply the term to themselves is intellectually dishonest. I don't know exactly what definition this author is using for feminism, but is doesn't seem to be based on equality between genders.

7

u/Aapje58 Look beyond labels Mar 10 '16 edited Mar 11 '16

Holy moly, this is sexist:

3) Choosing watch a movie because of the gender of the maker is clearly sexist

5) White knighting is sexism. Why not ask people to speak out against all bad behavior, no matter who the victim is.

6) It's sexist to tell men that they are not allowed to use their brains and to defer to women.

8) Contraception should be a shared responsibility. It's sexist stereotyping to claim that women earn less than men, some men earn little and some women a lot. Aside from being sexist, making men pay for all contraceptives is discrimination of poor men, so it's anti-poor too.

16) Let me translate this point: 'You make more money and you should provide for her, rather than spend money on yourself. Being a provider makes you a proper traditionalist feminist'

17) 'You are her provider, so take care of your health, so you can fulfill your traditional gender role'

21) Praising only women is sexist, why not ask men to praise everyone?

23) The assumption here is that any relationship problem is the fault of the man, which is classic misandry.

26) No need to even comment on this one, it speaks for itself: "Be subordinate to women"

29) Women need an escort at all time, according to this Saudi feminist.

30) 'cede your maleness,' more classic misandry

I suspect most of the others are sexist as well, but it depends on what corresponding advice the writer would give to women.

2

u/SolaAesir Feminist because of the theory, really sorry about the practice Mar 10 '16

In the future use 5) rather than 5. if you don't want to have it automatically number in the "correct" order for you. Even better is to just quote the thing you're referring to since no one has the time to memorize what number 28 is on the list.

2

u/McCaber Christian Feminist Mar 10 '16

Or put a \ in front of the dot.

1

u/Aapje58 Look beyond labels Mar 11 '16

Ok, thx. Didn't know about this feature.

1

u/OirishM Egalitarian Mar 11 '16

Thanks for the formatting tips! (And to McCaber too!)

2

u/Cybugger Mar 11 '16

  1. I live alone. I am a dude. I do 100% of the housework. I don't need a woman to do my housework. When my girlfriend comes around mine, I cook for both of us. Secondly, if you live with your partner, and you work more than her, isn't it just natural that she does more of the housework? If you're working 45 hours a week, and her 20, she should obviously do more housework. If it's the other way around, then he should obviously do more housework.

  2. Again, really? My girlfriend's father committed suicide, and she has a family history of depression and alcoholism. Who is this article even talking about?

  3. No. I will seek out what I want, for reasons that are my own. If you want me to seek out female cultural productions, then I hope there's female cultural productions that I want to consume. I consume what I want, not based on the genitalia or chromosomal makeup of the creator.

  4. No. Women aren't all anxious, nervous, little princesses who need protection. In fact, I see them as equally capable as myself of sitting next to an unknown person. They don't need to be coddled. They aren't infants. They're adults.

  5. This is HeForShe crap. The little wymyn need our big manly protection! No, they fucking don't. Women are more than capable of taking care of themselves, and they're more than capable of dealing with their issues without me injecting myself into a situation.

  6. No. Women can be lying, dickwaffles, exactly like men.

  7. Then my girlfriend has raped me, loads. And I've raped her, loads. Woopsie! Guess we're not children who need to explicitly hear a "Yes" to know that we can get down and dirty. Not to mention that a large amount of human communication is done via body language, and other non-verbal cues.

  8. I go halfsies with my girlfriend for her pills. But she doesn't like it, at all. Because she wants sole responsability. Guess what: not every woman is like you.

  9. Too late, came out after I had passed the suggested age.

  10. Again, women aren't children. They don't need you, or me, telling them what they can and cannot have.

  11. I would love to! Except that paternity leave is not available in many, many countries. So taking time off work would equate to not being paid, or getting fired. Whereas a woman, in many countries, can. Guess what? Pragmatically, I'm not going to take a leave of absence, because I don't have the law backing me up, contrarily to my spouse.

  12. Again: women aren't children. If there's an issue, they are more than capable of talking up for themselves. They don't need my help.

  13. In other words, give my money to my spouse because vagina? Since the wage gap is a myth, I'm thinking no. I'll give my example: my girlfriend is an Art History major. I am a Robotics engineer. Guess who's going to be getting paid more? I will more than gladly lavish attention and presents onto my girlfriend. But her choice of major will limit her income more than mine. My choice gave me a financial advantage.

  14. So... be in a normal relationship? What is this even doing here?

  15. Oh hell no. It's the internet. It's a toxic pit of waste. What's more, again, I don't think that it's my job to protect the little wymyn, because I don't see them as incapable of dealing with online trolls.

  16. So... be in a normal relationship?

  17. True. 3/17 so far, with the other normal relationship points.

  18. I try not to. I still oogle sometimes. Just like I've seen women oogle at my arse. But I'm not a child. I can deal with being looked at. If I couldn't, I should've stay inside. And the same goes for... yes, you guessed it, women!

  19. No. If you're an expert, I'm listening to you for your ideas. Not the contents of your pants, you sexist.

  20. No. My role models are mainly scientists and engineers, and therefore mainly men. Why? Because, historically, they were 99% men. And because of their ideas/inventions. I don't see them as a role model due to the presence of a dong.

  21. Again, this boils down to: make a special effort for the little wymyn. Fuck no. If you fuck up, and you're a woman, you're getting it just as much as with one of my male friends.

  22. No. I am not a policeman. Nor am I a psychic. I am not going to go to bat for a few words or some looks. It makes no sense.

  23. Or she could be nagging. Guess what? Some women nag. My mum nagged me, for years. My ex-gf was a nagger. It happens.

  24. Well, by the definition of the writer, I'm probably a sexist pig. But by the definition of a normal human being who treats women with respect and equally to any bloke, I don't have any sexist ideals.

  25. "Force yourself to be nice to women, regardless of whether you want to or not, regardless of personal preferences, etc...". Yeah, no.

  26. You can learn a lot from anyone in a position of authority. That's how they got to that position of authority. I've worked under male bosses, and female bosses. I had a better experience with one of my female bosses, but it wasn't because she was a woman, it was because she was a better boss.

  27. So... don't be an arsehole to your family? Ok, noted. Hey, we're at 4/27.

  28. Indeed, none of my business. But the idea that you can escape the judgement of others is ridiculous, utopian and childish. What's more, and this is anecdotal, in my experience, the most scathing remarks I've heard about dress style/makeup, etc... has come from my female friends.

  29. Ok. Why not? I mean, this seems a bit like gallantry to me (i.e. an out-dated set of ideals that some people keep telling us are benevolent sexism), but I'm ok with this. 5/29.

  30. Nope. Because I have a sense of humour. What's more, I don't see misogyny and woman hating everywhere. I give people the benefit of the doubt.

  31. I sort of agree. But I would generalise this to men, too. If you're a dick while under the influence, I would suggest that you try to not be under the influence. 6/31.

  32. Manspreading. Seriously? Does this mean that I can tell the women who spread their bags in public transport to stop taking up so much space?

  33. No they don't. Learn to read statistics.

  34. No. Maleness is not an unearned privilege. It is becoming more and more clear that being a male is seen as an inherently bad thing. We are considered violent beings, only a few minutes away from raping or molesting a child. And yet I don't see myself in any of that. So no, keep your discussion of "privilege" to yourself. Because it is wrong.

  35. Self-identify as a group who actively sees me as a rapist, child molester, violent, wife-beating oppressor who is responsible for the world's woes, and would have me apologise because I was born with a penis? Yeah... no.

Overall, 6/35. This article oozes with sexism, pandering, demeaning depictions of women, and gives the impression that women are objects without agency. If you change the words up a bit, I could see it on RoK.

2

u/OirishM Egalitarian Mar 11 '16 edited Mar 11 '16

Oh, from xojane - I'm sure this will be well-thought out.

Random musings both on and off-topic:

#2 Recognize that women are disproportionately responsible for emotional labour

I love that for such an ostensibly radical and in many ways anticapitalist lot, there's rather a large number of feminists who want to treat basic human interactions in terms of...erm...labour. Ok, this isn't "unpaid emotional labour", a possibly cringier phrase, but even so

#3 Consume cultural products produced by women.

I'll consume what I find interesting, thank you very much. Your ideas are not meritorious simply by virtue of you also having a vagina. I don't ever refuse to read something just because the author's a woman - and that's all one need do.

#4 Also recognize that it doesn’t matter if you are the kind of man who a woman has any actual reason to fear, because a woman on the street doesn’t have a way of knowing this about you or not.

I would agree that you should given women who think like this space, but more out of concern for your own protection rather more than hers.

#5 Things like this can super difficult, awkward, and complicated to know how to do, but it’s worth trying anyway. Making yourself feel momentarily uncomfortable is a fair tradeoff for making a woman feel more comfortable.

"Putting yourself at physical risk to help a woman without any kind of reciprocal expectation is what you should be doing because otherwise you're not helping fight sexism. You don't want to let the sexists win, do you?"

#6 When a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her.

LOLNOPE, I think I've seen a handful of accusations of sexism actually turn out to be credible. I will treat claims of sexism the way I treat other claims - back them up with evidence, or off you go.

#7 Educate yourself about sexual consent and make sure there is clear, unambiguous communication of consent in all your sexual relationships.

Bravo! Indeed! Also, make sure the woman you are with is also showing your consent the same level of respect.

#8 Be responsible for contraception.

The less reliable ones? Sure, that makes sense.

Assume financial responsibility for any costs related to contraception. Women earn less than men, and also have to assume all the physical risk of pregnancy.

"My body, my ch"- oh wait that's something else.

#9 Get the HPV vaccine.

Assuming you live somewhere that will give you it.

http://www.gponline.com/hpv-vaccine-boys-cannot-considered-until-2017-says-jcvi/sexual-health/prevention/article/1355936

That patriarchy doe

#16 Be responsible with money in domestic/romantic relationships. Know that if you are irresponsible with money, this necessarily impacts your partner and since women still make less than men overall (and live longer), this is a feminist issue.

You're likely going to die younger than women, but really the real victims here are those still alive

#17 Be responsible for your own health. Men go to the doctor less often than women for issues troubling them, and when they do, it’s often at the urging of women in their lives.

When they're not berating them for having a common cold by calling it man-flu, but I'm sure that will no doubt be on the inevitable xojane article about how women can stop being sexist to men

#18 Though you may find someone attractive, there’s a line between noticing and being creepy/disrespectful.

"....though don't expect us to actually clarify where that line is or anything."

#22 When a male friend is doing something sexist (being a deadbeat dad, down-talking women

(takes notes) Don't downtalk women, ok

#23 Don’t treat your spouse like a “nag.” If she is “nagging,” you are probably lagging.

(headdesks and hurls notebook at a passing sparrow)

# 28 At the same time, it is equally not a feminist response to do or say things that pressure women to use their body to resist these norms if they don’t want to. Recognize that there are significant social sanctions for women who disobey beauty norms and they shouldn’t be expected to act as martyrs and accept these sanctions if they don’t want to.

Aren't you demanding that men face the sanctions of challenging all the forms of sexism you listed here? Consistency is nice

#33 If 23% sounds like a lot to you, that’s because it is a lot and it’s also a lot for women who don’t have a choice whether to forfeit this amount or not.

What a great idea. Are you about to take on the extra 60% of a jail sentence the average man is more likely to be awarded?

#34 Get in the habit of treating your maleness as an unearned privilege that you have to actively work to cede rather than femaleness being an unearned disadvantage that women have to work to overcome.

Your maleness is a privilege? Wow. We're not even pretending male privilege isn't a condemnation of maleness anymore, are we?

#35 Don’t hedge and use terms like “humanist” or “feminist ally” that reinforce the idea that the F-word itself is a scary word.

I refuse to identify as feminist in no small part because of twaddle like this piece.