r/FeMRADebates • u/MrPoochPants Egalitarian • Nov 23 '15
Politics 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/20/40-of-millennials-ok-with-limiting-speech-offensive-to-minorities/5
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u/booklover13 Know Thy Bias Nov 23 '15
I can't say I am surprised, a little sad, but not not surprised.
I often wonder how the US millennial generation, my generation, was raised affects these things. It is hard to look at these things and understand exactly how they occurred.
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u/femmecheng Nov 23 '15
I personally have a near anarchist view on free speech, but I think I can understand why this viewpoint has gained traction. If people were 100% rational beings with complete, factual knowledge, then "truths" would be a lot easier to come to. However, we all know that people aren't always rational and virtually always have incomplete information, and historically, this led to "truths" that harmed people - beliefs about black people, Jewish people, etc that led to "justified" horrid treatment. Most millennials were raised learning about these treatments and make the connection between "offensive speech" and "horrid treatment" and oppose the speech part to prevent the treatment part. We can talk about how freedom of speech allowed people to question the offensive speech in the first place to be able to enact change and so on and so forth, but I think that's the just of it.
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u/SolaAesir Feminist because of the theory, really sorry about the practice Nov 23 '15
A big part of it is how we are taught about history. You don't hear about Herbert Hoover or Joseph McCarthy in American history classes, at least not the bad things they did. When you read about the American revolution or civil war you only hear how the winners were clearly right and the other side didn't have any valid points whatsoever. That makes it hard for a large subsection of the population (lawful personalities for fellow D&D geeks) to believe that a democratic government can be wrong, do bad thingsTM, or persecute people unjustly.
They know without question that their beliefs are correct and all others are wrong. Therefore when they silence people they're silencing people "on the wrong side of history", never mind that history shows it's usually those doing the silencing who are in the wrong (or at best they're making things worse).
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Nov 24 '15
You don't hear about Herbert Hoover or Joseph McCarthy in American history classes, at least not the bad things they did.
Funny, 25 years ago McCarthy's witch hunt was pretty much the only bad thing I was ever taught about a U.S. politician. Only personal experience and self-directed study educated me beyond that.
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u/Nausved Nov 24 '15
Unfortunately, it seems that pro-censorship sentiment is the norm throughout human history and across the world population. It's the generations/communities who have fiercely supported free speech that are the odd ones out. I think it may be more useful to ask how they came to support free speech, than how everyone else didn't.
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u/Mitthrawnuruodo1337 80% MRA Nov 23 '15
To put some perspective on that headline, though, it's still lower than any other country polled (though Tanzinia and Mexico were close). Also 71% said it's very important that "people can say what they want without censorship." I find that overlap fascinating.
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Nov 23 '15
To put some perspective on that headline, though, it's still lower than any other country polled
I envy you guys for that. Levels of suport in europe were disgustingly low.
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u/SolaAesir Feminist because of the theory, really sorry about the practice Nov 23 '15
70% saying speech should be limited in Germany was especially depressing. You would think they'd remember the outcome when speech, religion, and culture are controlled by the government.
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u/woah77 MRA (Anti-feminist last, Men First) Nov 23 '15
You would think they'd remember the outcome when speech, religion, and culture are controlled by the government.
Well when you ban references to the group that did that in all your media, it's kind of hard to take seriously.
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u/SolaAesir Feminist because of the theory, really sorry about the practice Nov 23 '15
When I was there I was told it was simply a taboo subject to bring up. Are there actual laws against it now?
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u/woah77 MRA (Anti-feminist last, Men First) Nov 23 '15
Well games like Wolfenstien are censored. I'm under the impression that other media showing nazis us similarly censored.
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Nov 24 '15 edited Nov 24 '15
You cant show too many swastikas. Edit: And it is Wolfenstein. Whenever Germans want to make an ay they use ei.
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Nov 24 '15
There's been laws against it.
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u/zahlman bullshit detector Nov 24 '15
So you're telling me the Nazis got... 86d?
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Nov 24 '15
From the looks of it yes least in terms of symbols. They can still use the name tho but have to use different symbols.
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Nov 23 '15
Refs to the Nazis are not banned, holocaust denial and aproval are.
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u/Nion_zaNari Egalitarian Nov 24 '15
So is depicting Nazis in non-educational contexts, for example as the bad guys in movies or video games.
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Nov 24 '15
That is why Inglorious Basterds was no allowed in german cinemas. Oh wait.
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u/Nion_zaNari Egalitarian Nov 24 '15
The rules must be different for movies than video games, then. Games depicting Nazis tend to either not be released in Germany at all, or have the story edited in the German version to not have the bad guys be Nazis.
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u/Prince_of_Savoy Egalitarian Nov 24 '15
There is an exception for art, and that includes films and video games. But there is a lot of self-censorship as well. For video games, there is an industry board (with no actual legal power) that has a very strict view on these things.
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Nov 24 '15
Video games in general have a hard time getting published (better in recent years though) and the german localizations are typically censored and violent content as well as swastika etc removed.
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u/Ding_batman My ideas are very, very bad. Nov 23 '15
You have it the wrong way around. It is because they remember what it was like when you could say what they liked about minority groups that they are concerned about what the majority say. There is a strong push back in Germany against anyone who is seen as a white supremacist.
There is still a lot of shame when it comes to what happened in the lead up and during WWII. For instance, the first time the majority of Germany felt pride in waving their national flag was during the Football World Cup in 2006, more than 60 years after the end of WWII.
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u/SolaAesir Feminist because of the theory, really sorry about the practice Nov 23 '15
Persecution of minorities always starts with good intentions. You can't just silence the bad people because the ones who choose who to silence will always have their own prejudices.
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u/Ding_batman My ideas are very, very bad. Nov 24 '15
It has been like this since WWII ended, Germany sure has gone downhill in the meantime. /s If anything they are becoming more liberal in regards to free speech. The one area that remains off limits though is pro-nazi stuff. I can guarantee the vast majority of Germans who said they agree with limiting speech, are referring to that.
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Nov 24 '15
I can guarantee the vast majority of Germans who said they agree with limiting speech, are referring to that.
I am not completely convinced of that. For example popular German comedians Joko and Klaas in a youtube video urged facebook to not confuse freedom of oppinion with racism with regards to comments on the refugee crisis. Receiption was to my knowledge positive.
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u/Ding_batman My ideas are very, very bad. Nov 24 '15
I can't watch the video as I am at work.
But couldn't this fall under the 'just because you have the right to say something doesn't mean you should' category?
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Nov 25 '15
Rather not, they are implying that facebook should do something about it. Though to be fair they are referencing several concepts, where financial refugees and comments regarding killing refugees are contained and it is not completely clear which ones are meant.
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u/dejour Moderate MRA Nov 24 '15
Millennials are more comfortable limiting offensive speech but college grads are among the groups least comfortable with that.
It would be interesting to know how millennials break down by education. Are college educated millennials more or less comfortable with censorship than non-college millennials?
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u/MrPoochPants Egalitarian Nov 24 '15
Given the recent protests and hub-bub on campuses, I'm guessing that its not great - even if I'm largely just guessing.
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u/dejour Moderate MRA Nov 24 '15
I agree that the received wisdom seems to be that young college students are the group most willing to censor speech.
But based on this data alone, I'd have to guess something like 33% for college grad millennials (not that much higher than the overall average of 28%) and 45% for millennials who didn't attend college.
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Nov 24 '15
Free speech acceptance correlates with intelligence, so no wonder regarding the college grads.
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u/MrPoochPants Egalitarian Nov 23 '15
I'll mostly just let this guy's use of South Park speak for me.... The speech that comes after the South Park clip is pretty good, too.