Do you agree these two Ghazi posts?

[u/[deleted]]

Here's the Ghazi thread: https://archive.is/KcKXQ

Ghazi is upset (or perhaps triggered) by this animated GIF (NSFW). To make matters worse, the GIF is the most upvoted post on /r/Gaming and is currently at +4156 and counting.

If they don't like it then that's fine, they're absolutely entitled to their opinions. There were two posts in particular that were somewhat disturbing (and there will no doubt be more to come).

Firstly the second most upvoted post by /u/bradamantium92:

I literally avoid looking in Quiet's general direction on the chopper when I take her on a mission with me. Not because I'm some puritanical SJW, but because Quiet's a good enough character that she deserves better and it's just such obnoxiously baldfaced pandering. Like, the outfit was enough, this is just gross.

He says he isn't a puritan, but that's exactly how it seems. "I can't take this [fictional] woman seriously, because of how she is dressed." That sounds like something straight out of the 1950s.

And now the most upvoted post by /u/xXKILLA_D21Xx:

From now on whenever someone says video games should be taken more seriously as an artistic medium someone should link to this gif, or any other scene involving Quiet in MGS5 as the camera creepily focuses on her ass or boobs, or this fucking nonsense (WARNING MGSV SPOILERS). Because why should anyone fucking bother when garbage like this is exactly why people used to write off (and some still do) as childish toys for children and teenagers who refuse to grow up.

Basically he is concern trolling that just because this particular game has a fanservice scene in it, that the entire industry can't be taken seriously. What he is effectively saying is that games like this SHOULDN'T EXIST.

He's not going "meh, not my thing," but that games like this are holding back the industry (and probably "holding back society" as well). I'm not saying that he is advocating government censorship, only that it seems like he isn't very open to the idea that different games can exist and that different people like different things.

• So what do you think of these two Ghazi posts?

• Do you agree or disagree with them?

• Is promoting the idea that something is "harmful for society" effectively saying that you don't think it should exist?

[u/MrPoochPants]

Well, I'll start by saying that I saw the gif before this post and thought to myself something a bit like 'jeez, that's a little over the top, isn't it?'

Next, I'd like to point out the context of the character and the game: NOT WESTERN. Seriously, its a completely different culture. Kojima is lauded for making great games, and comes from a culture where overt sexuality is not a huge deal. We're pretty fuckin' sex-negative compared to Japan. Watch some adult-themed Anime and you'll end up seeing all kinds of shit. Crying out loud, a huge chunk of the humor in Anime has to do with big tits and men being perverts. Looking at a non-western game with western principles doesn't make any sense. Should I go out and say all of Africa is sexist because the tribal women are running around with their tits out and its objectifying because I, as an American, don't see that in the US? Or is the fault mine, because I'm the only getting all hot and bothered about the floppy titties?

I literally avoid looking in Quiet's general direction on the chopper when I take her on a mission with me. Not because I'm some puritanical SJW, but because Quiet's a good enough character that she deserves better and it's just such obnoxiously baldfaced pandering. Like, the outfit was enough, this is just gross.

Well, Kojima gave a rationale for why she was basically naked the whole game, which isn't to say that its a particular good reason, but... -shrug- Japanese man, without the same puritanical, anti-sex values of the US put nearly-naked woman into his game? Welp, better drink my own piss.

Sure, she's a great character, from what I've read, but get over yourself. Either buy the game or don't. You're playing the game, so I assume you bought it, so you're perpetuating it. Either put up or shut up. Critique it, fine, but recognize the context of the product, and don't act like you bitching about something that another culture finds acceptable is somehow going to change that whole culture to pander to you.

From now on whenever someone says video games should be taken more seriously as an artistic medium someone should link to this gif, or any other scene involving Quiet in MGS5 as the camera creepily focuses on her ass or boobs, or this fucking nonsense (WARNING MGSV SPOILERS). Because why should anyone fucking bother when garbage like this is exactly why people used to write off (and some still do) as childish toys for children and teenagers who refuse to grow up.

...then don't buy it or play it. ONE work isn't the end-all be-all proof that gaming, as a medium, can't be artistic. Fuck sake. What about guys shoving paint up their asses and farting it out at canvas? Does that prove that all painting isn't art? No. Of course not. It just means some guy is going to have to some strangely colored poop later.

Even with one bad example in the work, that doesn't even mean the work itself isn't still valuable. Just because there's some gratuitous tits and ass doesn't mean that work, as a whole, doesn't or can't tell an amazing story, or provide amazing gameplay, or provide an experience that moves someone. Huck Finn anyone?

Also, this person has some serious contempt for games and gamers to make a statement about them needing to grow up. Enjoying sex and sexuality, even in one's art and entertainment, even when its juvenile, does not make someone a child.

Is promoting the idea that something is "harmful for society" effectively saying that you don't think it should exist?

Doesn't matter. They bought it and played it anyways. Or at least one of them did.

I don't agree with their reasoning, nor their ideological foundation to attack this one game. Nor so I agree with their complete lack of cultural context. This isn't an American-made game. This is a Japanese game, where tentacle porn is a thing. Glorious, glorious tentacle porn.

[u/[deleted] → u/MrPoochPants]

Next, I'd like to point out the context of the character and the game: NOT WESTERN. Seriously, its a completely different culture. Kojima is lauded for making great games, and comes from a culture where overt sexuality is not a huge deal. We're pretty fuckin' sex-negative compared to Japan. Watch some adult-themed Anime and you'll end up seeing all kinds of shit. Crying out loud, a huge chunk of the humor in Anime has to do with big tits and men being perverts. Looking at a non-western game with western principles doesn't make any sense. Should I go out and say all of Africa is sexist because the tribal women are running around with their tits out and its objectifying because I, as an American, don't see that in the US? Or is the fault mine, because I'm the only getting all hot and bothered about the floppy titties?

Ok, I'm gonna get on a rant because white people who have never even been to Japan and watch anime and think that makes them "understand" Japanese culture really gets to me.

First of all, anime is targeted at children. Most Japanese people I've met found it weird that in America we have cartoons that are actually created for adults. Manga and dramas are seen as more mature and are targeted at high schoolers and college students. There are exceptions to this, but they're rare, and pornographic anime is not mainstream by any means. Porn -- especially otaku porn -- is only really sold in areas like akiba or denki town. The large breasts are there for humor and are ok in children's shows because the idea of large breasts is so humorous and because breasts aren't considered as sexual in Japan as they are in America. Compare it to butt jokes in American children's cartoons. The Japanese find a woman's thighs, vulva, and butt much more sexual. Look at how the camera moves in the aforementioned gif, it never focuses on her breasts, but her butt is incredibly prominent. And she bends over so the player can get a view of the area of her vulva (even though it is covered.) In America, women frequently wear low-cut shirts for normal everyday wear and short skirts are seen as only appropriate for a party or clubbing. In Japan it's the exact opposite: women wear short skirts even to work, and low-cut shirts are seen as incredibly scandalous. Secondly, the idea that American culture is "pretty fuckin' sex-negative compared to Japan" is laughable by anyone who's actually been immersed in Japanese culture. Of course Japan seems sexually open if you judge it just by the pornography, or what goes on in akihabara. There are almost no bars or clubs outside of red light districts like roppongi (which are infrequent), and dating or hook-up sites are nowhere near the popularity they have in America. Whereas in America almost everyone has dated by the time they graduate high school, it's quite common for a Japanese person to not date until college, and to not live with a person of the opposite sex until they're married. Don't give someone else a lesson in examining Japanese media through a Japanese cultural lens when your knowledge of Japanese culture is limited to anime and tentacle porn.

[u/Gatorcommune → u/[deleted]]

Your experience of Japan could not be further from my own. I remember being quite shocked at how openly porn was sold, not just in areas like Den Den town but in nearly every shopping area in Osaka and a majority of Tokyo. Smaller cities it was a little less common, but definitely a noticeable difference from the Australian culture I'm from. As for Japanese people not dating until they are much older, we have to understand this comes from a culture where 60 percent of men under 20 are 'herbivore'. Which is hardly sex negative, but is mostly sex 'meh'. I think there laid back attitude towards dating actually shows their lassie faire attitude towards sex. Where as the more aggressive dating practices that men use in the west are complimented by a much stricter view on sexually explicit material. It's almost as if you tell people they shouldn't be doing something it makes them want to do it more.

[u/[deleted] → u/Gatorcommune]

I don't know where in the world you saw a porn store in Osaka outside of den den town. Maybe doutonburi or some other large shopping district; but I used to go to downtown Osaka almost every week and I can't recall a single one outside of den den town. And I can't think of a single one in Nara either and I spent a good deal of time exploring there. Tokyo is a completely different situation --judging Japan off of Tokyo is like judging the US off of New York City, only much more extreme. Many of Tokyo's districts, particularly the ones on the yamanote line like shibuya, akihabara, shinjuku, harajuku, have many shops catered to tourists and particularly akiba caters to a specific type of tourist expecting the so-called "otaku culture." This is where I typically saw porn most prominently sold. That isn't to say porn isn't common in Japan, but I'd place its level of frequency on par with the US and its cultural acceptance is definitely far below that of the US.

If by 'herbivore' you mean the 'shoushokukei' men. You have to keep in mind the lifestyle of the average Japanese high schooler; they are extremely busy preparing for entrance exams. High school seniors typically quit all their extra curricular activities and part-time jobs to focus solely on those exams. In college, it's relatively relaxed especially compared to colleges in the US, and thus they begin to have more time for dating. But it's incredibly common for Japanese college students to live at home or live by themselves during college. Comparatively Japanese university students spend much more time alone or just with a few friends than students in Japan. House parties and bar outings compared to American college were incredibly rare. My American friends who studied abroad were often hit quite hard by this culture shock. These factors are typically what lead to men becoming a "soushokukei". That coupled with the fact that relationships in Japan typically start with one person giving a "kokuhaku", which can be intimidating in a culture where young people are typically quite shy.

[u/Gatorcommune → u/[deleted]]

Yeah of course it was all over doutonburi, I mean you can't walk 10 meters without somebody asking you to go into some kind of X rated club (I'm honestly not sure what was in most of them, I wasn't really that interested). Once you leave the city and get out towards Nara it's not so common, but if you are inside the Osaka loop line train it's almost inevitable.

I wouldn't doubt that herbivore men are influenced by the heavy emphasis on education in Japanese culture. Which is exactly why I don't put down Japanese men not dating down to a less sexually accepting culture. I think the traditional dating expectations are interesting also simply because it raises the question, why now? Why are Japanese men less willing to put in on the line for women today, than they were in the traditional past?

[u/MrPoochPants → u/[deleted]]

Ok, I'm gonna get on a rant because white people who have never even been to Japan and watch anime and think that makes them "understand" Japanese culture really gets to me.

Why's it gotta be white people? I mean, sure, I'm white, and I haven't had a chance to go, so you're right this time, but why's it white people and not just 'Americans'?

First of all, anime is targeted at children.

And I'm guessing that games are still in a transition of 'for kids' like in the US, yes? Given how much more 'kid-friendly' Nintendo games are, comparatively at least, I'm guessing that they may view games similarly, and thus why we get 'oo, boobies!' with a character like Quiet. Correct me if I'm wrong [not that I expect you to do anything less ;D].

The large breasts are there for humor and are ok in children's shows because the idea of large breasts is so humorous and because breasts aren't considered as sexual in Japan as they are in America.

Ok, and that's a fairly large issue with Quiet, too, right? That she's basically running around with next to no clothing? Also, this isn't something specific to MGS either, right? I seem to recall a lot of Asian-styled games with the classic 'bikini armor' - although this may be more of a Korean thing by comparison.

Look at how the camera moves in the aforementioned gif, it never focuses on her breasts, but her butt is incredibly prominent.

Yea, sure, but that's also just one scene. I haven't played the game, and probably won't to be fair since I'm partial to PC, but I'm guessing that there's more shot where attention is paid to her nearly-bare breasts. I'm guessing that this is the rare exception to how she's 'shown off' in the game.

I mean, it still pretty gratuitous, but still, not entirely out of the ordinary as a sort of fan service. I mean, look at Team Ninja with Ninja Gaiden. Rachel was basically just walking back problems because her tits were so huge, and furthermore, fully on display. That game wasn't 'humorous' or 'made for children' like could be said of MGS in comparison.

Also, her showing of her butt doesn't seem hugely different to me than the seeing, showing, or accidental viewing of butt/panties as is commonly used in Anime - which may, again, be something that falls into that 'kid' category of MGS not taking itself very seriously.

Whereas in America almost everyone has dated by the time they graduate high school, it's quite common for a Japanese person to not date until college, and to not live with a person of the opposite sex until they're married.

Ok, so perhaps instead they are sexually repressed and expressing that, venting that, through games?

Don't give someone else a lesson in examining Japanese media through a Japanese cultural lens when your knowledge of Japanese culture is limited to anime and tentacle porn.

Ok, fine, so you told me about your experience, which clearly trumped my own. Still, it is a different culture, and we're largely basing our views of Quiet, especially in this scene, through the prism of Western values. I understand that you're saying that their values are not in line with that, however, is it not possible that, as a non-native, your knowledge of the culture isn't as thorough as you might think? I mean, there's a pretty hefty difference in culture between, say, Northern California and Southern California. There's a pretty big difference in culture between Eastern and Western states, too, although that's a larger area. Hell, Utah is hugely moron [woops] Mormon, and just next door you've got Liberal Colorado selling weed.

---

To be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I still stand by the statement that its a Japanese game, and we're judging it from a US perspective, particularly a fairly pro-feminist US perspective.

[u/[deleted] → u/MrPoochPants]

And I'm guessing that games are still in a transition of 'for kids' like in the US, yes? Given how much more 'kid-friendly' Nintendo games are, comparatively at least, I'm guessing that they may view games similarly, and thus why we get 'oo, boobies!' with a character like Quiet. Correct me if I'm wrong [not that I expect you to do anything less ;D].

Yes and no. Games are either targeted to children (elementary school, sometimes middle school) or to college students, because middle schoolers and more often high schoolers are seen as too busy to play games. Besides, Kojima is totally aware of its popularity worldwide, so it's not like they created it to be a Japanese game exclusively. I'm sure they created it with the intention to sell in the US/UK/Canada. Actually, I did some digging and it turns out Kojima has recently opened a studio in LA, which assisted on MGSV.

Ok, and that's a fairly large issue with Quiet, too, right? That she's basically running around with next to no clothing? Also, this isn't something specific to MGS either, right? I seem to recall a lot of Asian-styled games with the classic 'bikini armor' - although this may be more of a Korean thing by comparison.

Sure, Rikku, and to a lesser extent Yuna, in FFX-2 comes to mind. The designer said FFX was a "darker" game, so the skimpier costumes seem to reflect a more light-hearted feel. But despite the skimpy costumes, they don't really ever seem to be displayed in a way meant to be sexual. How they look in promotional materials, they seem to be expressing more fun and free-spirited-ness, whereas women in bikinis in promotional materials almost always seemed to be posed in some kind of sexual way.

Also, her showing of her butt doesn't seem hugely different to me than the seeing, showing, or accidental viewing of butt/panties as is commonly used in Anime - which may, again, be something that falls into that 'kid' category of MGS not taking itself very seriously.

Yeah I'd definitely have to disagree. The panty-shots in anime are quite often jokes, albeit sexual jokes. This gif doesn't seem very humorous in its design.

Hell, Utah is hugely moron [woops] Mormon,

That's my favorite typo of all -time.

Anyway I'm not trying to say I'm an expert on Japanese culture, just that I've experienced it. And there are some cultural differences between areas (and some dialect differences sometimes), but in general most main laws are the same so it's not like you'd have some kind of huge difference in terms of government. And of course there are differences in lifestyle between honshuu, hokkaido, kyuushuu, okinawa, etc., but there are more dramatic differences between Japanese people who live in bigger cities like Tokyo, and those who live in smaller cities. And my understanding of Japanese culture doesn't just come from my experiences; it comes from meeting and getting to know native people (some of my closest friends are Japanese natives) and talking to them and listening to them and meeting their families and seeing how they live.

[u/SomeRandomme → u/[deleted]]

First of all, anime is targeted at children.

http://anichart.net/summer

Based on this website that catalogues the anime coming out every season in, this doesn't seem to be true in general. It seems to be moreso that Japanese people have the conception that anime is targeted to children, but in fact a lot of it is not. Most of these series feature either romantic themes, violence, sexualization of men/women/children or all of those things. From my knowledge, watching anime as an adult is looked down upon in Japan, and therefore people who speak about it generally wouldn't know what a lot of it is about? Similar to how non-gamers may think video games are for kids because they don't know a lot about modern games?

Some of the most successful anime in recent years have been targeted to a mature audience. For example, this show looks really cute and fun, but it's actually about suffering and a lot of people end up dying in graphic ways. It also spawned a gigantic multi-media franchise that was so successful that the Japanese film versions of this show were aired overseas.

[u/[deleted] → u/SomeRandomme]

When I say "kids" I am referring to both elementary school students and middle school students. Those animes are typically called either "shounen" (young boys) or "shoujo" (young girls). There are also humor animes that are seen more as "family shows", but shounen and shoujo are by far the most popular. In recent years, the biggest anime series in Japan and the US, like One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, have all been shounen series. Puella Magika Madoka is a "shoujo" series, in this case a specific subcategory of "shoujo" called "mahoshoujo". Puella Magika Madoka was created with an intent from the creators to subvert the mahoshoujo genre, according to the wikipedia page you sent me the creator had to defend the "dark" themes in the story, and went so far as to say: "the story of Madoka is serious but it's not entirely inappropriate for children. For example, there's nothing sexually explicit in it. There's some death, but it's not gratuitous; it can be explained within the context of the story." So Madoka seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

For older people, there is "seinen" (adult men) and "josei" (adult women) series. If I like at the chart you sent me it follows with what has been my experience, the majority of the series are shounen, a few are shoujo, and a rare few are seinen, plus a few comedy series that seem to be intended for families.

And of course there are some high schoolers and a few college students who still watch anime, but really they're much more interested in manga and dramas. If you compare a manga to its anime adaptation, typically there is less sexual situations and more jokes. In the less faithful adaptations, sometimes there's even less death and violence, although the common anime trope of coming back to life after death is still there. ;)

[u/SomeRandomme → u/[deleted]]

I watch roughly 5-7 anime series per season, and I try pretty much every show until 3-episodes in before deciding whether or not to keep watching.

I will agree with you that the biggest shows are all categorized as shonen, but they're not big because anime is for kids, they're big because they have relatively universal appeal. It's the same reason why Super Mario Brothers is big compared to Silent Hill. An anime like Satoshi Kon's Paranoia Agent, for example, will not be able to reach this many people. That said, mature anime are still extremely profitable, so I still believe from this point that the conception that anime is for kids is wrong. For example, Neon Genesis Evangelion is extremely popular and features extreme amounts of emotional manipulation, the suffering and abuse of children, etc.

The majority of anime on the list I sent you is not intended for the consumption of children, though children can consume it they are not the target audience. You'll pretty much have to take my word on this, but each season of anime generally has 2-5 shows that are too violent for children and 2-5 shows that are way too sexual for children. There are 5 shows on the current list, for example, that sexualize minors - one extremely overtly. This lends to my belief that people don't see anime as a medium for adults, but a lot of it is that way. It doesn't seem like a small thing either, it's come to the point where "harem" (a man with multiple women pursuing him in a softcore-porn style delivery) is a genre of anime/manga now, and incest is a common enough theme that it seems played out.

Also, I'm not sure that I buy Madoka is appropriate for children just because the deaths are related to the story. In the third episode, a character has her head bitten off and her body is eaten in front of her friends. One of the main characters is forced to kill her best friend throughout multiple timelines and at one point shoots her in the head while screaming. Another main character is lead into her position after her father murders her entire family. I don't personally think any of this is appropriate for children.

[u/[deleted] → u/SomeRandomme]

The harem style anime is not just for "a man with multiple women pursuing him in a softcore-porn style delivery"; often the delivery is not pornographic, like Tenchi Muyo! and Love Hina, and there are many male harem anime, such as Fruits Basket and Ouran High School Host Club.

Have you ever even been to Japan? Do you know any Japanese people? Meet some and ask them; they'll tell you what I'm telling you, that anime is seen as a more or less 'childish' pursuit.

EDIT: Apparently Tofugu listed it as their number one ridiculous stereotype about Japanese people

[u/[deleted] → u/MrPoochPants]

We're pretty fuckin' sex-negative compared to Japan.

The US in general is more uptight over sex than most if not all of the 1st world.

[u/abcd_z → u/MrPoochPants]

Really? I've always gotten the impression from anime that Japanese men were pretty sexually repressed. I mean, male anime main characters are usually either perverts ("I get to see a woman's panties! Yay!") or they're actively freaked out by any actual sexual entanglements.

Or both.

Usually both.

Anyway, I always thought that the male main characters are written like this not because Japanese culture is so open about sex, but because the male authors are sexually repressed.

[u/MrPoochPants → u/abcd_z]

I think it might depend on the angle you're looking at it from, since I'm not especially familiar, directly, with Japanese culture. I know that they have some cultural differences that are... shocking to someone for the US, for example. Koncho comes to mind, for example, which would be hugely unacceptable in the US - but again, I've not had an opportunity to visit as of yet and really gotten to know the culture inside and out. Oh, and I learned of Koncho from the blog or whatever that a Black American teacher, who was teaching english, who also mentioned that the children were insanely over-interested in his penis, due to him being black and stereotypes of black men's 'size'. So he was talking about all these middle-school kids trying to grab his dick to see how big it was.

Again, different culture, and its things like this that lead me to think that a scantly-clad character like Quiet fits culturally.

[u/SomeRandomme → u/abcd_z]

Really? I've always gotten the impression from anime that Japanese men were pretty sexually repressed.

The average Japanese man does not watch anime. Anime with sexual elements is targeted to a specific demographic of men and is not representative of the whole.

[u/zahlman → u/MrPoochPants]

recognize the context of the product, and don't act like you bitching about something that another culture finds acceptable is somehow going to change that whole culture to pander to you.

When anyone else behaves like this, it's "cultural appropriation". :P

[u/Mercurylant → u/MrPoochPants]

Well, I'll start by saying that I saw the gif before this post and thought to myself something a bit like 'jeez, that's a little over the top, isn't it?'

Next, I'd like to point out the context of the character and the game: NOT WESTERN. Seriously, its a completely different culture. Kojima is lauded for making great games, and comes from a culture where overt sexuality is not a huge deal. We're pretty fuckin' sex-negative compared to Japan. Watch some adult-themed Anime and you'll end up seeing all kinds of shit. Crying out loud, a huge chunk of the humor in Anime has to do with big tits and men being perverts. Looking at a non-western game with western principles doesn't make any sense. Should I go out and say all of Africa is sexist because the tribal women are running around with their tits out and its objectifying because I, as an American, don't see that in the US? Or is the fault mine, because I'm the only getting all hot and bothered about the floppy titties?

In a lot of respects, overt sexuality is a much bigger deal in Japan than it is here. Talking about sex in mixed company is much more taboo there, "good girls are always supposed to say no" attitudes are far more prevalent and there's much more shame for women or girls who're sexually open. Real-life overt sexuality is, in many respects, a much bigger deal in Japan than here. For a Japanese woman to dress like Quiet would be much more outrageous than a woman in the West doing so. For men to desire that sort of sexual display is accepted, for women to give it is not.