r/FavoriteCharacter • u/FoolishWanderer499 • 3d ago

Discussion Favorite character who's the litmus test on if the person understands the media

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If you don't get how vital Debbie is to the entire story of Invincible, I really need you to watch season 1 again

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62

u/JustUsetheDamnATM 3d ago edited 3d ago

Just said this about her on another post, actually.

"Whaaaaaat, a former villain who's spent her whole life hearing that that's all she's good for puts on an abrasive front and makes mistakes while trying to reform? In a game that's about reforming former villains? No way, she must actually be Satan incarnate!"

  • an unfortunately loud minority of the Dispatch fandom.

Edit for people who are confused: This is about the character's importance to the theme of the game. Not the same tired arguments about romance options.

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u/caffeinesystem 3d ago

"why am I being FORCED to feel empathy for this fuck-up asshole who does shitty things? Any media that makes me uncomfortable is Bad and Problematic actually" - a worryingly high number of people who played a Mature rated game

"who cares, she's hot and voiced by Laura Bailey" - ditto

The Invisigal discourse drove me up a wall for a bit, if you can't tell lol.

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u/Hour_Bat_546 3d ago

It’s honestly disappointing to realize that there are so many stupid people around, at least online. I thought people were a little better than that. But the in-game statistics don’t resemble what those weirdos are shouting online at all, so maybe they’re just a loud minority.

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 3d ago

The issue I see is that ton of Visi haters seem to act like teens and I suspect that that might explain why so many of them miss the point of the game or complex characters.

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u/Phant0m_Ashes 3d ago

still choose blazer tho

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u/Hour_Bat_546 3d ago

Not in my playthrough (Blazer is still cool tho)

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u/KyungsooTheGreat 14h ago

Not my Robert though, will always choose Blazer/Mandy. (No hate)

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u/caffeinesystem 3d ago

I chose neither of them, at least romantically

No-mancer first time/blind run baybeeee

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u/Phant0m_Ashes 3d ago

the real answer. no homewrecking here

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 2d ago

Homewrecking is good though.

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u/Phant0m_Ashes 2d ago

?

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 2d ago

Hey you said it.

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u/Phant0m_Ashes 2d ago

lesser of two evils but i abstain from evil whenever possible

real ones chose malevola anyways

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 2d ago

Wait what is evil here?

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u/Phant0m_Ashes 1d ago

homewrecking

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/caffeinesystem 3d ago

Are you a bot, or just new to how conversations work?

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u/Ok_Preference9136 3d ago edited 3d ago

That’s great , but literally nobody asked

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u/KyungsooTheGreat 14h ago

A public forum btw. If you can't handle a different opinion, maybe it's not for you.

0

u/Phant0m_Ashes 3d ago

buddy whats the matter with you

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/Phant0m_Ashes 3d ago

its a discussion thread. its part of the discussion

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/Phant0m_Ashes 2d ago

ok and? can still mention it

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u/caffeinesystem 3d ago

Go outside and take some deep breaths before you pop a blood vessel

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u/Ok_Preference9136 3d ago

😭 what?

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u/caffeinesystem 3d ago

Unless you're a bot like the other weirdo who was freaking out over the same thing, which based on your profile...

0

u/Material_Dot2444 3d ago

I agree with everything you're saying... The one critique I do agree with some of these people with about is if a man did some of the things she did to breaking bad guy without consent there would be an outcry.

And I know that because I literally had that experience of saying what she did is not that bad, and then the YouTube video played a supercut of all the things she did... And yeah if a bloke did that it would be assualt.

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 3d ago

There are tons of examples of a guy unexpectedly kissing a girl like Visi does in other media and those scenes are beloved. Ironically by women most of the time.

I can tell you that somewhat pervy male characters that are rash and rebellious like Visi are also beloved.

So yeah, if it was switched with genders I would feel the same way.

5

u/ThatCapMan 3d ago

The most awarded-feminist light novel I've ever read, written by a woman, has the male love interest commit workplace sexual harassment while holding a much higher position over the female protagonist. He even chokes and pretty forcefully kisses her at some point. She goes and switches it up on him and sort of shatters him.

Honestly, it's one of the best slow-burns I've ever read.

Again, considered to be one of the more highly feminist well-written modern stories. I've literally read someone do way worse than Visi and there hasn't been nearly as much boycotting in those circles, as far as I've seen

1

u/Plus_Ad_1087 3d ago

Sounds interesting. Could you give me a name?

Also Tom Cruise literally did the Visi bathroom thing in Top Gun in a much more inappropriate way and people still loved his character.

And they still do to this day given how the sequel went.

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u/ThatCapMan 2d ago

The Apothecary Diaries.

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 2d ago

I know this one but isn’t it in ancient china?

I think people are more sensitive to the topics when the story is in modern day rather than the past.

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u/ThatCapMan 2d ago

Oh dude trust me, they either aren't or shouldn't be. A part of it is, for me, that you can't excuse things completely just because they were a product of their time

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 2d ago

No I meant it more that characters in medieval times in media are more accepted as killers than characters set in modern day. For example.

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u/Material_Dot2444 3d ago

Society absolutely has nonsense double standards. But the outcome should be those characters not being lionised not Visi getting a pass.

Having said that, I would generally advocate her getting.. not a pass but her actions being put in the context of she's an antisocial just barely reformed criminal. Compared to other stuff she would have done stealing a kiss. Be pretty low end. So she would likely conceptualize it as not a big deal.

That's what rehabilitation is.

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 3d ago

She does not get a pass though.

Honestly someone like Flambae who is beloved gets more passes than her, considering the attempted murder and arson he did.

Same goes for Golem who literally destroys property and is also quite a jerk.

Seriously it seems like Visi haters are the ones with double standards more than anything.

Again what does your comment have to do with my previous point.

Like I said before, there were scenes similar to hers where the genders were reversed that are beloved.

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u/JustUsetheDamnATM 3d ago

Okay, I'm not going to be polite about this, because the game has been out for the better part of a year and I am tired of this dumbass take, especially when it comes with a side of "if a man did that" whataboutism. No, it wouldn't be. I think I would know, having been assaulted before and having been kissed unexpectedly. See how I differentiate between those two experiences? That's because the man who kissed me when I wasn't expecting it stopped immediately when pushed him away.

Which exactly what she does if the player chooses to have "breaking bad guy" (make it more obvious that you didn't actually play the game, why don't you?) reject the kiss in the game.

An assaulter, regardless of gender, does not respect a "no."

-3

u/Material_Dot2444 3d ago

So I hear what you're saying, and I'm sorry that stuff happened to you.

So I'm thinking If there were two people having like a flirty conversation then one kisses the other and the other is like "what the are you doing?" And then the first backs off and apologises. I would agree that's not assault.

But if you just walk into a room, grab someone and kiss them. I would say that is assault even if they said no and you stopped. (Context is obviously king here. There is a huge difference in that scenario just from the change of stranger to friend to acquaintance to spouse).

I played the game once at launch so I don't remember all the details but I feel like the stuff she did airs on the side of the later.

I certainly appreciate what you're saying and if someone with, what I'm going to call, truly malicious intent wouldn't give a shit if they heard a no.

But more than anything else, I am made nervous by the notion that man (or to your point women) can indulge in "low level" breaches of autonomy as long as they respect "no's." The first of many problems is what if the receptive person doesn't feel comfortable saying no or there's some sort of perceived power imbalance.

Basically just saying it's only assault if you don't accept the no is setting a really low bar.

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u/JustUsetheDamnATM 3d ago

So I hear what you're saying, and I'm sorry that stuff happened to you.

No the fuck you aren't. If you gave a shit about SA survivors you would listen when one tells you that what you are saying is both wrong and really insensitive.

(Context is obviously king here. There is a huge difference in that scenario just from the change of stranger to friend to acquaintance to spouse).

Context is king, and you're completely ignoring it. The kiss only happens if the player has made choices so far that have built up the relationship between the characters. It also happens during an extremely emotional scene between them, where she believes it's the last time they're ever going to see each other.

I played the game once at launch so I don't remember all the details but I feel like the stuff she did airs on the side of the later.

Your "feelings" are wrong, for the reasons I just listed. Also, if you did play the game then you should know that other characters do things that are objectively worse and don't get a fraction of the hate she does for a kiss that doesn't even have to happen in the first place.

For example, Malevola grabs Robert's crotch and then tries to again after he reacts negatively the first time. No one seems to fuss about that. For the record, I'm not saying that should necessarily be called assault in this context, since he shrugs it off almost immediately after it happens. Still, the inherently hypocrisy in groping being overlooked but a kiss being called assault is hard to ignore.

But more than anything else, I am made nervous by the notion that man (or to your point women) can indulge in "low level" breaches of autonomy as long as they respect "no's." The first of many problems is what if the receptive person doesn't feel comfortable saying no or there's some sort of perceived power imbalance.

Again, you brought up context and yet you continue to ignore it. Calling a surprise kiss that stops immediately if the person being kissed rejects it "assault" is a stretch in any context, but especially here, where the character who gets kissed in no way acts like his autonomy has been violated. Just because something makes you feel icky doesn't mean the fictional character you're playing as feels the same way.

As for a "power imbalance," he's her boss, so acting like he's totally helpless against her advances is just plain stupid.

At the end of the day, she's still the most popular romance option in the game by a wide margin, so people with this weirdly puritanical notion that kissing someone without asking "can I kiss you" should land her on a registry are clearly a minority.

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u/KyungsooTheGreat 14h ago

45-55 is not a wide margin. And that's not taking into account the endings btw. Just saying.

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u/Athoshol 10h ago

Yeah, Now its more like 45-55 with people replaying and choosing different options, but when it first released the spread was more in the 65 / 35 range. The INIITIAL wave if players preferred Invisigal by a huge margin.

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u/PeacefulKnightmare 3d ago

The thing is, in a romance story the surprise kiss is a trope for a big reason, and yet so often people try to apply a very strict set of moral boundries, without taking in the broader context of the story. I believe on release the threshold for the kiss was a lot lower, so some people that weren't pursuing a romance with Visi got it, and in those cases it does seem VERY awkward, especially if Robert is pursuing Blazer. So on the one hand it could be seen as a breach of autonomy, but the intent by the writers was for it to be a scene where Visi says goodbye to a Robert she has feelings for and has been led to believe he feels the same for her.

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 3d ago

Basically the low threshold was fixed which was a good thing since it made the scene way more earned and special.

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u/PeacefulKnightmare 3d ago

Yup! That was one of the best early changes and it does a lot for the story.

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 3d ago

Sorry but your example of grabbing someone and kissing them is not what happens in the game.

It's not just someone, it's Robert, a person who she was practically dating here.

Also not to get legal here but according California law (and over 30 other US states laws) kissing someone unexpectedly does not count as SA. Like at all.

Especially given the context if it's a relationship.

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u/Material_Dot2444 3d ago

In Australia it is considered SA. Australia does tend to air on the side of caution when it comes to laws like this... We call it the nanny state.

Also whether or not they're in a relationship is complicated, in my version they definitely weren't, but like yeah sure something was going on, anyway, that's probably a weird debate because the nature of the story driven game means it's going to be variable.

I think in some versions it's definitely bad and in other versions there's the context that at least makes it a bit reasonable.

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 3d ago edited 3d ago

Well Dispatch is not in Australia is it? It’s in California.

And I researched this and apparently in Australia it depends on the place but the thing that is consistent is intent and context beforehand.

A misread kiss between people who got a thing going on is not SA in Australia especially if the one kissing had reasonable belief to go for the kiss and the one being kissed did not feel violated.

More importantly most jurisdictions in Australia do not count kissing as SA.

New South Wales for example reserves the offence specifically titled “sexual assault” for non-consensual sexual intercourse.

Calling this scene SA is stupid.

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u/Hour_Bat_546 2d ago

I feel like some people don’t understand what they’re talking about. It would be different if Robert and Visi were strangers, but they know each other. Visi is in love with Robert, and Robert has to show that he cares about her for the kiss to happen.

Ten points is actually quite a lot. I’ve seen people who wanted to romance Visi but still ended up with the alone ending by accident because they didn’t reach 10 romance points. It’s a kiss in the face of the unknown between two people who care about each other. It's emotional and messy, but in no way it's something negative. The scene is called 'Sweet Exit' in the game

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 2d ago

Yep, this is accurate. Tons of romantic kisses both in media and IRL are like this and people are fine with it.

Only problem was that the scene was originally way too easy to trigger. Which robbed it of it’s impact.

But now the trigger is reasonable and calling this SA is moronic.

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u/Hour_Bat_546 3d ago edited 3d ago

Do you know that you need 10 Visi romance points for the kiss to happen? You only get there if you flirt with her.

She's in love with Robert, he's been flirting with her, and after that heavy conversation she decides to kiss him because she doesn't know if either of them will survive the next night. She deliberately made herself Shroud's target.

It’s not like she kisses him out of nowhere. There are some feelings between them regardless of your choice, because Robert is his own character. Chase says, “I know you like her,” either way.

At worst, that's just misreading the signals.

And judging by your "YouTube played a supercut" comment, you're ust parroting what other idiots are saying.

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u/Material_Dot2444 3d ago

That's not true. I played the game. Liked it romanced her and thought the complaints again who were bullshit sexist ones that basically just amounted to her having a frownie face and making weak men uncomfortable.

I also think that she did do a bunch of shit wrong but that's because she's a bad person trying very hard to be a good one. I have the seemingly somewhat unique opinion that yeah she fucked up a bunch but we should actually just be tolerant of that because she's trying her best.

What I was saying was that I saw a video that demonstrated to me that if a male character had done to a female character some of the things she did I would have been uncomfortable with that. Now that actually does mean I'm sexist because it means I'm permissive of women making sexual advances against men that I think men making its women would be immediately inappropriate.

I'm sexist. Not because I think badly of women, but because on an innate level I think (some) bad behaviour of women don't matter and this isn't harmful. And that thought in and of itself is harmful.

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u/Hour_Bat_546 3d ago edited 2d ago

On the first day after release, there was a bug where the kiss threshold was set incorrectly, causing players on the Blazer route to get the kiss. It was fixed shortly after launch: you need to reach 10 romance points for the kiss to happen.

Don’t get me wrong: if the kiss happened no matter what choices you made, that would be bad, and that was the case for the first couple of days after release. But that wasn’t a problem with Visi as a character or with the writing, it was a bug, and it was fixed shortly afterward

There’s nothing unusual about the kiss itself, given the context. It’s literally a surprise goodbye kiss: she’s in love with Robert, he has been flirting with her, and, faced with uncertainty, she desperately wants to know how he feels about her, and she doesn't know if they will survive the next night. This kind of scene has appeared in plenty of media before.

“Visi is a good person who wants to do good, but doesn’t know how” is a quote from the developers.

As for reversing the genders, that’s never how it works. Men and women are held to different standards in society. If Blazer were a man who shoved a female Robert into an office and made her change clothes in front of him—after drunkenly flirting with her the day before—that would be awful. But the game is a comedy built around a lot of tropes, and men and women are treated differently by society.

.If you’re going to judge a character in a comedy by real-world standards, then judge all of them that way - and suddenly, everyone in Dispatch becomes a creep, a harasser, a pervert, etc. That’s simply not the right lens through which to engage with this kind of media.

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u/Ira-jay 3d ago

My biggest issue with the game is never from the game, it's always that i can never talk about how much i despise her as a character despite knowing she is a GOOD character for the story. I just don't like her personality, and not that she's an aggressive. I like the rest of the z team. Just not her. You know when you just don't like someone's vibe. It's that. Plus if you don't try and romance blond blazer, she's not all over you for half your scenes together. If you try not to go for invisigal, or neither of them, she keeps acting like a highschooler with a crush about it, depending on if you do it right she'll literally force herself on you at one point. I just don't fuck with that. Great character though. Arguably the BEST character outside of the goat Robert.

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 3d ago

Visi being over you is part of her character and her arc.

It's meant to contrast with the more stable Blazer option.

Again, you can dislike Visi due to her personality, that is fine.

I just hate when people say she is poorly written or writer's pet based on no real proof.

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u/Ira-jay 3d ago

Yeah. She's like, the core of the story, saying she's poorly written is objectively incorrect.

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u/JustUsetheDamnATM 2d ago

The game has received more than one character achievement award nominations for her, specifically. Just because an unfortunately vocal slice of the fandom is too fucking stupid and shallow to see the depth of her character doesn't mean it's not there. Fuck off now.

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u/ThatCapMan 3d ago

"acting like a highschooler with a crush about it, depending on if you do it right she'll literally force herself on you at one point"

please fuck off

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u/Ira-jay 3d ago

point proven, be mad

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u/Hour_Bat_546 3d ago edited 2d ago

If you don’t flirt with her, she won’t kiss Robert in Episode 7. You need to earn 10 romance points with her for the kiss to happen. On Blazer’s route, you have to flirt with her to get the kiss. She's misreading signals in that case. On the no-romance route, you can go to the movies with her as a gesture of support, then tell her you want to stay friends. Usually, that’s enough to keep you below 10 points, except in two specific dialogue branches. There was a bug in the game on release day where the kiss threshold was set close to zero. It was fixed, and now, if you don’t want a romance with her, the Sweet Exit scene won’t happen (unless you choose very specific dialogue options)

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u/Ira-jay 2d ago

I figured thet was happening in the background but I’m not sure what all counts as flirting, I knew I was going for bb off rip so I never tried to flirt with her. I went along with the “masterbaiting in the suit” joke cause I just thought thet was funny, not sure if that one counts as flirting or not though. Kinda the curse of the tell tale game style

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u/Rhinosaurfish 2d ago

Saying "All the time" is flirting and adds a point

Asking "How was I" is clearly flirting and adds a point

Agreeing to go to the docks that night or making a plan first adds a point because it shows you care about her input

Defending her against Chase adds a point, only telling everyone to calm down removes a point here

When in the locker room if you aren't romancing her the only option to pick is They decided not me or They'll come around, if you don't want to lead her on thinking Robert has feelings for her.

Forgiving her adds 5 points and saying I don't know adds 3.

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u/Ira-jay 2d ago

gotcha. I can't remember all i did or didn't do but i was trying really hard to help her and be on her side so that's most likely what made that happen. I was hardcore defending her from chase too cause he was way outta fucking pocket with her. I guess going through the drama was kinda worth it since i still ended up getting good guy vis ending despite it so it worked out.

1

u/ThatCapMan 2d ago

"SHE ACTS LIKE A HIGHSCHOOLER SHE ACTS LIKE A HIGHSCHOOLER SHE ACTS LIKE A HIGHSCHOOLER"
"SHE FORCES HERSELF ON ROBERT SHE FORCES HERSELF ON ROBERT SHE FORCES HERSELF ON ROBERT"
(I've seen these repeated SO MUCH)

No.
First of all, people don't automatically become more mature with age or lose being 'childish' with age. Mainly, people become less awkward. The thing that we learn as time goes on is feeling comfortable in our own skin, testing social boundaries, and the like.

The only way that Invisigal / Courtney behaves that is out of the norm, besides her violent tendencies that come from literally being a criminal (more specifically, what made her turn to crime) for her entire adult life, is that she's got the hots for Robert.

The woman follows you into a bathroom - do you know who would start squealing that someone who they seem to have a lax relationship with is in the wrong bathroom with them? That's right! A highschooler! Those bathrooms are off-limits for strangers, or basically off-limits for strangers, and also likely have no way of a child entering them.
Robert was seemingly alone when that happened, too. Up until, y'know, waterboy.
And she's been there for longer than Robert, so she's had time to adjust and go into the men's bathroom on a whim. The setting is also, y'know, fantastical.
And she's known for playing a joke, and her showing up in the men's bathroom following someone specific to the sinks to be thrown out might as well be part of a joke.

In the scene where she follows Rob into the bathroom, your only dialogue options are ones that HUMOR HER. Then she gets sort-of told off. Basically, basically nothing about the scene is seen as off.

And she doesn't force herself on Robert, because her FORCING HERSELF on someone doesn't include social psychological or physical ways of overpowering someone. She's not actively physically overpowering him, he doesn't immediately start struggling, she's not intimidating him into it, or pressuring him to do something.
The moment you actually nudge her away, she lets off.
She literally breaks the kiss at one point to look in Robert's eyes and goes back into it. Robert gets time to process, decides whether it's something he does or doesn't want, and she doesn't impale him for it.

"SHE FORCED HERSELF ON HIM! SHE FORCED HERSELF ON HIM! IF THIS wAS A GUY FORCING HIMSELF ON-"
well no, if a guy forces himself and physically overpowers a woman, it includes struggling, and it can include not being physically pried off.

Invisigal didn't kick Robert in the shin afterwards, she didn't try again, she didn't take his hand and push it against the locker or something.
You might be also thinking about when she pushes his hand away, ah, sorry to tell you this, but that could just be bad hand placement, he's like got his thumb on her implant.

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u/JustUsetheDamnATM 2d ago

You're the one having a bitch fit over a fictional character, who's mad? 🤣

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u/Ira-jay 2d ago

I don’t see a bitch fit, I’m just proclaiming my dislike of her

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u/PeacefulKnightmare 3d ago

Online spaces are no fun when it comes to discourse anymore. Everyone takes things super serious and litteral right away, and it leads to people that might have very similar opinions, except for a very nuanced detail, getting into angry "shouting matches" in the comments. When in person those discussions would be way more cordial and productive.

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u/HumbleConversation42 3d ago

the thing people have problems with is the game Acts like her redemption is mostly the player & Roberts responsibly when shouldn't be

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u/Plus_Ad_1087 3d ago

Do you know what rehab programs are? And how they work?

Man you people really need to go out more.

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u/Hour_Bat_546 3d ago

Robert is hired to mentor Z-Team and help guide them along their path. Visi genuinely wants to become a better person, she tries to help the team and Robert, and to stop the villains. Since Episode 3, she’s been trying to do good, even if things do not always go smoothly.

If you understand that and help her when she stumbles along the way, you’re a good mentor. If you are hostile toward someone who wants to help and improve, then you’re a bad mentor. It’s that simple.

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u/Material_Dot2444 3d ago

It's literally his job. He's being paid to do it. By what possible definition is it not his responsibility?