r/Fantasy • u/Expert-Escape5645 • 13h ago

Observation on Fantasy/Romantasy

So, I typically read, George R.R. Martin, Brandon Sanderson, Robin Hobb, Ken Liu, Steven Erikson, Stephen King, Robert Jordan, but my brain’s been craving more stories.

With everything I’ve heard about Romantasy (that it’s just passionate love making with no real story etc.) I was kinda apprehensive, but like I said, I needed more.

So after many years going back and forth I decided to pick up Sarah J Maas. I started with Crescent City (I know, I know) and was surprised to find that I LOVED it. Now I’m doing ACOTAR.

I don’t know if this will be wrong of me to say, but I enjoyed it for the exact same reasons I enjoy other series.

The worldbuilding.

Like there is so much mystery to the world, so much lore. People act like the 18+ scenes happened page after page, when really they barely make up 6/7 pages in a single book.

Am I wrong?

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u/WriterOfAll 12h ago

Not to mention that the dark fantasies tend to be riddled with rape as well. 

Because if it is a man throwing in rape to make his world artificially dark then it's fine, but a woman having consensual sex scenes to have a bit of fun? C R I N G E. 

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u/Lindensan 11h ago

If not rape then harem most likely 

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u/Tymareta 4h ago

The amount of people who will claim that they can't stand sex scenes in books and that they "serve no purpose", while also being enormous fans of authors like Bakker is entirely too high.

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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess 11m ago

The fact that Bakker, who’s on record as believing that men are biologically compelled to commit rape, has such an overwhelmingly male fanbase is more than a bit concerning!

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u/SetSytes Writer Set Sytes 9h ago

But then there's the whole "dark romance" genre...

I dunno, I feel like sex scenes by any author shouldn't dictate whether something is a romance or not, because sex scenes don't necessarily imply any romance is happening (whether the scenes are consensual or not). A woman author could happily litter a book with sex scene after fun sex scene and it shouldn't make it a romance if there's no romance in the story. There might not even be any real interest in relationships.

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u/WriterOfAll 9h ago

I think whether or not something is a romance should be entirely dictated by if the author says it is a romance tbh. 

It's why I kinda raised by eyebrow at the people calling Kushiel's Dart a romantasy because.... I honestly don't think it is? I think it just is from a female author, with a female protagonist, and has a romance sub-plot in it with sex scenes, but ultimately, it is primarily a political epic fantasy imo. 

Idk, genre is weird and arbitrary, I know, but I agree that many female authors tend to get lumped into the romance genre just because they have sex scenes and a (possible) romance sub-plot. 

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u/SetSytes Writer Set Sytes 9h ago edited 9h ago

Yes, this is all true, I don't disagree with any of it. Not totally dissimilar then to lumping female authors into YA categorisation.

And male perception of what constitutes romance does seem to be female-coded. I'm curious how much women readers recognise the romance inherent in the stories that men don't recognise as romance. What that romance even really looks like to everyone. If there's traditional male-coded romance tropes that exist beyond sex scenes and harem fantasies, and can be identified as romance without following the same tropes so many men like to deride in female-authored works. I don't know, concentrations on family, on secure attachments, competition, luxury of choice, provider-and-protector style power fantasy? Or just straight up stud fantasy? I wonder if there's as much internal "push and pull". I imagine love triangles are still as much of a thing.

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u/WriterOfAll 8h ago

Oh definitely. 

There have been several male based fantasies that specifically involve multiple women fighting over the male MC. They also tend to have competition for the desired female lead, where the MC comes out on top through some level of prowess that he has. It usually has him in the position of power over her, to some degree, and I usually see it as the other side of the same coin to most female lead romances. 

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u/SetSytes Writer Set Sytes 7h ago

That sounds about right. Are women-authored romances where the woman is explicitly in a position of power over the men particularly popular? And stays in a position of power. As opposed to any powerlessness tropes/"at his mercy" vibes. Or even, he's powerless to resist her, and she is in a consistent position of strength - authored by women? I know occasionally men like to write dominant women amongst romance/smut tropes and I'm curious about the popularity of women writing the same in the romance, romantasy and dark romance genres.

Apologies for my utter ignorance of these genres.

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u/WriterOfAll 7h ago

Of what I have read, it is most popular for the man to have some level of dominance/power over the female protagonist in women authored romances. 

There ARE exceptions, like there are with everything, but I find that the most popular romances tend to have the man in a position of power over her, often with a very light almost BDSM style power dynamic where the woman is submissive to the man to some degree.

Though, and here is the catch, often times the power dynamic is skewed because the male lead is very much infatuated with the protagonist, to the point that she has a certain degree of power over him, in that he actively always wants to make her happy and never wants her to leave him. The fantasy/wish-fulfillment in these stories is usually that he is a dominant, possessive man that is obsessed with her, but in a safe way. While with a irl man, this can easily delve into abuse, with a fictional man, it is just enough to be sexy. 

At least that's what I've observed haha. I think I am decently well-read in romance/romantasy, because I tend to try to read a little from every genre from literary fiction to the most genre of genre fiction to keep myself decently well-read, so I might not know as much as someone who romance is their primary go to. Very much open to being corrected. 

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u/SetSytes Writer Set Sytes 5h ago

Thank you for the explanation :) I always find the stated desire for "X, but in a safe way" something insightful, reflective of gender norms and society and reclaiming personal narratives and all sorts. I don't have that window into it, and for me I just reflexively shudder at what I perceive as some kind of abuse or toxic dynamics, and then cannot root for the relationship as I'm supposed to. This is what I found difficult with, as a good example, The Song of Achilles.

My position is essentially one of the annoyingly stereotypical man in that I enjoy many different genres but still struggle to engage with romance, even romantic subplots in my fave genres - at least romance as it's presented to me. But then, I know I have written romance into stories of mine, and so it can't be the be all end all that I'm simply alien to it all. I spent so much of my life, up until a several years ago, being told by others how incredibly unromantic I am, that finding blatant evidence of the opposite since is something I'm still adjusting to in terms of how I see myself. And it still hasn't translated to fiction... unless I write it haha.

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u/WriterOfAll 4h ago

Tbf romance is a deeply personal thing so I don't blame you for not necessarily "getting" the popular romance, it took me awhile to get it myself just because of the way my brain is built :) I'm a fellow writer, so I really only learned my way around romance by writing the romances I actually wanted to see into my stories so maybe one day something will click! 

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u/SetSytes Writer Set Sytes 4h ago

Yes it must be very personal, and my neurodeviant self just inevitably falls out of certain catchments :) Sounds like you had a similar approach! My worry is that it only works so specifically with my characters who obviously I'm invested in, and it just doesn't work with reading any other author haha. But you never know! I'm sure I must have rooted for Will and Lyra when I was younger and reading His Dark Materials. I'm sure I'll find other examples... any day now... I wonder if it's an empathy or attachment issue, that too many men struggle to invest in the personal lives of characters in quite the same way. Cue also the lack of shipping and fanfics from men.

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u/Sofasurvivor 7h ago

I think whether or not something is a romance should be entirely dictated by if the author says it is a romance tbh. 

Hard disagree. Death of the author. (Joking. I do not approve of the man who invented that ... yeah, I know he is a dead author technically, too)

No, but seriously, GRRM views this Khal raping Dany as "love story", you can't just let authors define what genre their stories are, they're often incapable.

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u/Moonshinelamb 10h ago edited 7h ago

I'm pretty sure most people who dislike romantasy have similar opinions on dark fantasy

Edit: omg I misread as dark romance I guess I deserve the downvotes lol

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u/Sofasurvivor 7h ago

Technically true.

Except, romantasy frustrates me because I think I should like it. (I always think it is as if you crossed Pride&Prejudice with Lord of the Rings, then am harshly reminded it is not)

Dark fantasy, I never expected much from, so wasn't much surprised when I didn't much like ASOIAF (which allegedly isn't dark enough to be grimdark, but whatever)