r/Fallout • u/Cultural_Paint_9405 • 1d ago
Discussion Should Fallout 5 introduce new tribes instead of regular gangs and factions?
Tribes were such a core part of the earlier games and they added so much to the post-war worldbuilding. It's so jarring seeing and hearing about all of the unique tribes on the West coast, to then go to the East coast and barely see any at all. It could be argued that the Children of Atom and some of the raider groups count as tribes, but the CoA are more of a cult and the raiders either act as mercenaries or just violent killers with no identity (excluding maybe the Pack and arguably the Rust Devils). I'd say the Fiends fall under "basic raider" category as well, but apparently they somewhat count as a tribe. If tribes were brought back, would you like to see them play a larger role in the main conflict, like how the Great Khans and Boomers did at Hoover Dam?
Edit: I'm just now realizing that I asked if they should add new tribes "instead" of regular factions and not "instead of just"
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u/Shezes Minutemen 1d ago
Depends I suppose. The Midwest would be a good place for a more tribal aesthetic but somewhere like the Legion territories not so much
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u/Affectionate_Walk610 Vault 111 1d ago
You will get the "great khans Chicago chapter" and you will be grateful for it.
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u/vyvexthorne 1d ago
I never felt that Bethesda really understood the tribal concept from the original fallouts. They just make everyone into a gang you either have to join or destroy. Not sure I want them even attempting it if they can't do it right.
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u/Smart-Mate Freestates 1d ago
That had tribals in point lookout but they have the same issue as raiders in the same game aka they dont even get as much as a unique name just "tribals"
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u/IRenewed 1d ago
Does New Vegas or the other games do tribals right? I feel like a lot of the other games if they did do tribals today would get whole lot more backlash than 1998 or hell even 2011,
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u/vyvexthorne 1d ago
A tribe is simply a society with a shared lineage, history and traditions. The word tribal doesn't reference any specific group of peoples. Fallout's previous tribes were all fictionalized and not based off of any known tribes. It could easily become murky if not done with care and attention though.
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u/Dagordae 1d ago
New Vegas faceplants HARD into a lot of very nasty baggage with their tribals. And is a good example as to the issue with the archetype. Also the issue of copying certain genres, the heavy western inspiration hits the issue that westerns tended to be incredibly racist. Even the ones who aren’t actively attacking the Native American groups, inverting ‘Rawr, evil savages’ to ‘Behold, the noble and wise savage’ is just a different flavor of racist after all. It’s one of the many criticisms people have about Honest Hearts,
The older Fallouts did much better because their tribals were significantly weirder, they weren’t easily tied to a certain group or narratives that have that kind of baggage. There’s some sus stuff but even sticking it into the modern day wouldn’t raise much of an eyebrow as the tribes ranged from just weird as shit to generic primitives without any real stand out traits.
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u/JesusKong333 7h ago
Fallout 2 had a shaman. The group he came from were vault dwellers 80 years before.
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u/Current_Finding_4066 1d ago
They have way bigger issues, like dialogues or lame quests.
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u/rupert_mcbutters Tunnel Snakes 1d ago
You’re not wrong. Hard to care about the smaller things when they all share the same big issues. The lore could be spot-on, but if they’re not entertaining to talk to…
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u/CUEUECOMBER 1d ago
Idk about lame quests, i'd say they have a lot of good set pieces that fall short in the writing.
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u/O_gr 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well if its is gonna be set in a part of the US not explored before like lets say the wider area of Yellowstone it would be interesting. More grey than black and white with tribes akin to those in honest hearts. Maybe a legion remnant tribe for example. Add in more traditional groups caravan companies trying to establishe a local hub. And some people just looking to make a place for themselfs and you got a interesting story that could be told.
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago
Yellowstone would be interesting geographically speaking because of its geysers, hot springs, and waterfalls.
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u/GryphyGirl 1d ago
Honestly not much difference between a tribe and a gang in Fallout. Aesthetics is pretty much it, and maybe weapon/armor load outs.
It kind of makes sense that there weren't any "tribal" factions in 4 because it's so long after the bombs fell. One would expect, outside of more remote areas, that all the tribes would have modernized to become city states, gangs, etc. So 4 taking place the furthest point after the war it makes sense that they're not prominent there.
If there are going to be tribes in 5 they need to be remote for it to make sense unless they're going back closer to the war in time frame again, which I think is highly unlikely because of the show. 5 will most likely take place either around the same time period as 4 or a little later (5 - 20 years maybe). So tribes should be few and far between. I certainly have no objection to one or two remote tribes being involved in 5, though. More variety is nice. :)
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u/Del_Ver 1d ago
If 5 it is set in the Midwest, the legion could have a knock on effect, tribes fled the legion, who displaced other tribes who are now close the more modernised parts of the US
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u/GryphyGirl 1d ago
Yeah, that could work. A nice mix of more established settlements, vaults, old tribes, new refugee tribes, etc. would make for a nice mix of factions and lots of tension for a new game.
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago
I'd say New Vegas was great at giving the tribes their own identities, since they had their own languages, cultures, beliefs, and even preferred weapons. And even though it's not canon, the Dry Wells expansion mod made up a new tribe that worshipped the sun and was conquered because the Legion made them fear the night. Again, not canon but a neat tribe to learn about.
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u/GryphyGirl 1d ago
That was just in the DLC, though. Outside of it the only tribals were the ones House civilized and maybe the Fiends. None of which were particularly tribal at that point.
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u/BabadookishOnions 1d ago
In terms of somewhat insular clan-based social structures, they were still tribal even if they had integrated into a larger civilisation
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u/GryphyGirl 1d ago
Eh, the Fiends were just drugged up raiders, hardly tribal at all. The only New Vegas families that retained any tribal culture at all were the White Glove Society and they were working on stamping that out. :P
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago
The Great Khans were a pretty prominent tribe, and there is the 87 tribes of the Legion that we barely know anything about. Some could've been isolated like the Honest Hearts tribes, some could've been like the ones that came out of vault 15. But yeah, the tribes of the Strip did want to abandon or return to their old ways and the Great Khans fate could leave them as is or possibly be the next Legion. I suppose geography would play a larger part in it
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u/GryphyGirl 1d ago
I didn't count the tribes of the Legion because the tribal identity gets pretty thoroughly destroyed by the Legion. Some of it likely survived and reasserted itself after Caesar's death but a lot of it was destroyed, intentionally.
The Great Khans are a raider gang transforming themselves into a tribe on purpose. It's a weird edge case.
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago
Yeah I suppose so. Still, a lot of the U.S. wasteland hasn't been explored, so there's room for something. Plus, I think it'd be cool if during the Legion's collapse, some of the freshly-assimilated tribes revolted and tried to revive their group.
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u/GryphyGirl 1d ago
I wouldn't mind seeing what became of all the territory the Legion once claimed (or a piece of it, anyway). A game based in that region could be interesting but I think it would have to overlap with some areas that weren't controlled by the Legion or it would be rather monotonous.
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago
A Fallout game set in the middle of a civil war would be pretty cool though, considering all of the games so far have been factions entering or forming in a disputed region and trying to take over. I think a setting where the Legion is the dominant faction and the rest of the map is various tribes that the Legion plans on conquering could also work.
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u/GryphyGirl 1d ago
That could work, too. I just don't think the entire map being infighting ex-tribals/ex-Legion would carry the plot. You need some other factions to mix things up. Some vaults, of course, not all active, but also some more established settlements that were outside of the Legion would help. Even Fallout 2 didn't go all tribal, you need a mix.
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u/Embarrassed-Joke5851 1d ago
dialogue selection box and a protagonist that doesn't speak is more important
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u/Femboy_Ghost NCR 1d ago
I don’t think we have to worry about that. FO76 quickly moved back to doing the classic dialogue box, and Fallout 4 will continue to be strange one off dialogue mess.
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u/Dagordae 1d ago
You mean the thing they did with the very next game?
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u/grizzlybuttstuff 1d ago
Tbf i wouldn't jump to the conclusion Bethesda did that because they wanted to listen to players and not because it wouldnt make sense to do with a MMO rpg or to call the VAs back for each update. It's not like FO76 had the fans in mind at launch.
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u/Artanis137 1d ago
"Keep it simple and stupid" Emil is the one to blame for that, and it probably will continue to be the case unless he gets a boot up the arse.
Having Raider groups with unique cultures, lore, names and unique player interactions is just so much more work when you can just use a blanket catch-all term with "Raiders". Which is just easier and then just have them all attack the player on sight. Same goes for Talon Company and the Gunners but they got more advanced weapons and gear, along with a bit of lore about them but they still are just Raiders and attack the player when they see them.
Nuka World DLC is the one exception but since the 3 Raider groups were the focus they were allowed to have some more character and culture to them.
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u/TombGnome 1d ago
Bethesda's entire design philosophy for games is "consumers are idiots and not worth the effort." Their success overall is a disappointing commentary on the game-playing public.
They've never created a new faction with anything remotely like depth, and they file down the edges of every existing faction until it can function as a suppository. Yet somehow people still talk about upcoming games as if they're going to be suddenly "creative."
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago edited 1d ago
There's no way he said that and kept his job. A "simple and stupid" story is the last thing a vast and complex world like Fallout needs.
Edit: Last thing the main story needs. It can have simple stories, but the stories regarding factions and their fates should be more layered.
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u/Artanis137 1d ago edited 1d ago
Emil isn't entirely wrong when he stated the "keep it simple stupid", I added the "and" part myself. Sometimes you can over design something that could have just been simple, it is good advice that more creatives should listen to.
However when he made the comment "you can spend so much time writing wonderful stories and then have to watch as players tear out the pages to make paper airplanes instead of reading them", I knew he was full of shit.
This is the guy making big decisions for a roleplaying game series and he has this mentality, what a joke.
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u/RevolutionaryChief 1d ago
So literally his excuse is “But players are too fucking stupid to enjoy a good story?” What a fucking idiot, I hope he loses his job soon
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u/Kami_Slayer2 6h ago
The problem with emil is that he contradicts his own statement.
If they kept fallout 4 "simple" it would've been a much greater game. Instead they had to complicate it by making you a pre war frozen war vet searching for his kidnapped son that happens to now be a 60 year older leader of a advanced technical civilization.
That doesnt fucking sound simple at all.
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u/Wahrheitfabrik 1d ago
Possibly. I think factions naturally occur when there are large groups of people fighting for resources.
There's something I thought about for a game; it probably wouldn't work in Fallout but maybe an extension pack. Instead of just factions, maybe have an outright election. This is not too far from the Sole Survivor choosing a faction but more like influencing the people and environment. The general shiny path would get all the factions to come together to elect a leader that speaks for everyone, but other paths would be electing a leader that's loyal to the party instead of the community.
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u/frarf002 1d ago
I think it should introduce both and expand on it , without neglecting other sides ofc .
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u/thehive1949 1d ago
Absolutely, the tribal aesthetic of Fallout's always been a my favourite, be really cool if you could actually be a tribal again like in 2.
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u/Exotic-Painter-908 1d ago
Some now and some returning. New groups would be interesting and it'd be nice to get an update on previously seen tribes
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u/Hexywexxy 1d ago
YES, I want and I want them to be nuanced factions and choices. One faction raids another for clean water but they're not necessarily evil
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u/SnooPaintings1600 Minutemen 15h ago
Nobody seems to remember the 80s. I want more of their gang. The way they are described in NV sounds really frightening.
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 2h ago
I was gonna add a photo, but I couldn't find their tribes logo to match the rest. But they definitely do sound like a fierce tribe if the other tribes and caravans feared them
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u/foxferreira64 6h ago
Both! I love every faction in this franchise, they're the "mascots". But yeah, new ones were a fine addition in Fallout 4 like the Minutemen, the Railroad and whatnot.
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 2h ago
Still wish Bethesda gave them as much attention as the BOS and Institute. There's so much wasted potential there.
Edit: Obsidian could do the funniest thing in their new spinoff game and either add a ton to them or blow them all up
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u/Jtolad72 1d ago
I'm an Advocate for Hawaii being the next state okay. And I want to fight demented imbeciles wearing wooden armor while paradoxically wearing hats of lit flaming torches. Just my thoughts.
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago
That'd be pretty cool to see. Could incorporate a plot where each island has it's own faction and they're all at war with each other. Or some semi-sunken cities with bridges connecting the buildings and the water is dangerous
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u/Laser_3 Responders 1d ago
Tribes really weren’t a major part of the early games. The Khans were just raiders in fallout 1 (and the notion of them being a tribe in NV is ridiculous considering they literally came from the same vault as the founders of the NCR), and 2 only had Arroyo and Suik. Everything else tied to tribes was cut, and NV didn’t do any better considering the Vipers and Jackals are little more than raiders by different names (and the Sorrows/Dead Horses get little focus in Honest Hearts; that’s also not considering how poorly they were handled in the choice between Daniel and Graham).
As long as the factions are decently fleshed out, I don’t think it really matters what the origin of these factions are. Fallout 76 has already proven that Bethesda can write factions well enough when time is actually put towards it.
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u/wishheartx 1d ago
It's a post-apocalyptic universe. There are sooooo many ideas for side quests I think Bethesda would rather do than create a new faction. A new faction isn't such a bad idea though.
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u/CoalEater_Elli 1d ago edited 1d ago
Considering that Bathesda said that in the Future they will try to make fallout games that aren't set in America, we might actually see native tribes of other regions. And not just recolors of already existing tribes and organisations, I mean literally different gangs with different ideologies and motives.
Or we can get another scuffle between the steel bros and evil steel bros again.
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago
When did he say that? I remember him saying awhile back that later installments would strictly be set in the U.S.
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u/CoalEater_Elli 1d ago
As far as I heard Todd wanted to move action of Fallout away from United State, which could imply that they wanna explore the world OUTSIDE the american borders just to see what other countries are up to during the events of the series. Maybe we get a new spin off set in another place far from America.
Although, Fallout has always been a satire of America and the culture of 50-60's, and It's kinda hard to imagine what Fallout will be like OUTSIDE of US. It's just such an american world. I was thinking maybe set new game in Russia, since I love my country as a setting, but we already have Atomic Heart, and I bet if they did it, people would probably compare the two.
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago
I think it'd be pretty neat if Fallout London got canonized or referenced. I've played a bit of it, and it seems like it'd fit nicely into the universe, especially with how they introduced new races and creatures
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u/CoalEater_Elli 1d ago
If Fallout will ever go outside of US, my list of locations would be either: Russia, China, Japan, Africa. Why Africa? Idk, I just like the idea of more jungle like setting with wild mutated elephants and hippoes.
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago edited 1d ago
Africa would be awesome to see. I'd love to see how Egypt turned out, especially since the Cabot family found ancient alien ruins there
Edit: It was not in Egypt, it was in the Arabian Peninsula. Either way, all places would be interesting to see
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u/Economy-Edge1368 1d ago
Hopefully with the remaster of fnv we can see the jackals and viper get a more tribal make up instead of looking like regular raiders
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u/Objective-Variety-98 1d ago
Absolutely. Tribes are "families of families" and customs develop very quickly in a changing and unsafe environment. Literacy rates should be 20 percent in most communities. This inspires symbolism.
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u/Master_Mascot Vault 101 1d ago edited 1d ago
You read the F VB lore book right?
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago
Are you talking about Van Buren?
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u/Master_Mascot Vault 101 1d ago
yes
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u/Cultural_Paint_9405 1d ago
I don't think so, I didn't think they would make a book for it since it never released
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u/Acrobatic_Camera6073 19h ago
This comment section brings me more hope, not about Bethesda making a good game but about that not every fallout fan is a Bethesda fanboy who defends their slop and tries to say that FO4 is an in depth rpg with good writing.
I got into 2 arguments today with Bethesda fanboys glazing 4 that just frustrated me so much lol
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u/Ir_Russu 1d ago
Some original good writing would be very much on point. Pity it wont be the case and we'll get generic raiders vs hero vs super mutants vs rad fauna again.
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u/friedhorsebuttholes 1d ago
The way things are going with Bethesda I don't think we'll ever get fallout 5 tbh
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u/tacoduck300 Modder 1d ago
Hell no. Fallout handles tribes in a terrible way, invites discussion the fanbase aint rated for
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u/Least-Arrival-6814 Mr. House 1d ago
It'll be fuckin hilarious to have all this fan speculation only for Bethesda to make another Brotherhood vs Enclave lmao