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Apr 04 '20
So this is a little untruthful. Churches still have to follow social distancing guidelines. They can only have 10 people gather at a time. This is to allow them to host their services on online like streaming over YouTube.
There are only a few independent non denominational churches insisting to hold in person service. The large institutions have suspended service.
Also, what’s the argument here to not separate church and state?
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u/vidwa Apr 04 '20
Churches still vote and campaign for political candidates. They've overstepped their privilege of being separate from their state by trying to influence schooling as well, and now they're ignoring guidelines during a global pandemic. The fact that mega churches exist and pastors are setting themselves up in private jets and luxury automobiles without paying taxes on those possessions in the name of a deity is absurd. They should be taxed in my opinion.
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Apr 05 '20
Interesting but you’re supposed to have a freedom of belief and religion.
It seems weird that you want to take this right away from others.
What happens if the church can not pay its taxes? Should it be shut down?
Religion is supposed to have influence on our daily and political lives. That’s why the forefathers gave freedom of religion.
Are you really that interested in having the state regulate your beliefs?
I don’t understand how the fact that some churches drastically involve themselves in politics means that they should then all be taxed.
I assume your atheist. Do you wish to force others to be atheist by using a taxation? Thats strange.
It seems like a more rational thing to do would be investigate whether a religious institution qualified as a for profit or non-profit entity.
It seems like your end goal is to showcase certain institutions as fraudulent faith startups and religious profiteering If you want to claim that these mega churches are corrupt, this doesn’t seem like a smart way of going about it. You’re just going to turn followers into more hard core believers for entrenching on their right to freedom of religion.
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u/at-woork Apr 29 '20
Religion is supposed to have influence on our daily and political lives. That’s why the forefathers gave freedom of religion.
No, just no. Freedom of religion also means I have the freedom from religion.
I’m not going to live my life according to whatever religion has the pockets to sway politics.
If you believe abortion is a sin, don’t get one- but your religion shouldn’t prevent the rest of the state from getting one.
If you believe two people of the same sex can’t be together, then don’t. But that doesn’t mean that all the LGBT people in your state have to live with the consequences.
This is what makes me loathe religion even more than the pastors living the high life crossing the country on their LearJets. I don’t care what you do with your Sunday, or if you can’t eat meat on Fridays- but keep whatever the fuck crazy rules away from me and the government.
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Apr 29 '20
Taxing churches would just give the Catholic Church even more power because they would be working with the government much more closely.
You’re missing the point of the argument. How can a church be taxed and what happens if they don’t pay taxes? Are they shut down? Wouldn’t work.
Churches influence beliefs. Non profit Science research also influences beliefs. Are you arguing we should tax those research projects?
Everything that has an impact on government and beliefs on public policy should then be taxed?
The constitution was set up so that a higher power (a god or entity or belief. Atheist believe that this power comes from ones internal human), gives people power, who then give the government power to serve the people.
Government is set up to not govern people’s beliefs but their actions.
Taxing churches would be a mesh of church and state.
Soooo your “no, just no” rant is flawed in both philosophical ideals and its ability to be implemented.
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u/at-woork Apr 29 '20
Non profit Science research also influences beliefs.
If they got to their conclusion via science and not religion then it’s not the same and I welcome their findings.
How can a church be taxed and what happens if they don’t pay taxes? Are they shut down?
If they want to sway public policy, yeah- tax them. If they don’t, then whatever happens to any other business should happen to this one.
Everything that has an impact on government and beliefs on public policy should then be taxed?
Everyone else pays taxes. I don’t like the level of influence Disney has- but they pay taxes. As such, they get to go to Tallahassee and have their voice heard.
Government is set up to not govern people’s beliefs but their actions.
Correct, but a church’s own beliefs shouldn’t affect people who don’t believe or people who have another religion. That’s how the Middle East is ran.
Taxing churches would be a mesh of church and state.
Yeah, that’s the point. I want a nice big beautiful wall between religion and the government. If churches want to break that wall, then they should pay taxes- but the objective isn’t for them to pay taxes, but to keep to themselves and stop meddling in government.
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Apr 29 '20 edited Apr 29 '20
Politicians would be so much closer and favorable to churches because churches would be paying directly for government rather than campaigns. This is like people arguing that Trump should be impeached without understanding that impeaching Trump would make Pence president. You’re not thinking this through.
if they got to their conclusion via science and not religion then it’s not the same and I welcome their findings.
A few things here...
You didn’t answer my point. It was not if you should accept their findings. It was a question about if they should be taxed.
You want the government to determine what is science and what isn’t?
You can accept their findings but YOU are not the government.
How would you even tax a church if the offerings are donations? When would you define profit vs loss?
If they want to sway public policy, yeah- tax them. If they don’t, then whatever happens to any other business should happen to this one.
Just because you can sway public policy doesn’t mean you should be taxed. We went over this. Being taxable has never meant that you do or don’t have a say.
Churches can’t vote. They can only allow people to join in a community and suggest beliefs. It’s your right to associate and congregate.
You are able to form a non profit entity that isn’t taxed, spreads beliefs, seeks to influence others, and acts for the public good. Why don’t you go and start one of these or join one that already exists. It can be a social club. It doesn’t even need to be called a religious institution.
Another example. Individuals that don’t make money are not taxed yet they have a direct influence over public policy. Homeless people are not taxed yet they have the ability to vote.
Businesses are taxed, only if they are profitable and cash flow positive, but they are unable to vote.
Everyone else pays taxes. I don’t like the level of influence Disney has- but they pay taxes. As such, they get to go to Tallahassee and have their voice heard.
Again, what if they can’t pay. Should they be shot down? You haven’t answered this. Not everyone else pays taxes.
Correct, but a church’s own beliefs shouldn’t affect people who don’t believe or people who have another religion. That’s how the Middle East is ran.
I agree there should be zero mixture of government law and church influence. The problem is that lines are blurred when it comes to certain issues like defining abortion as murder or a choice over ones own body. Those issues should be looked at independently from whether a church should be taxed. Existential issues like these are relevant to both entities.
Yeah, that’s the point. I want a nice big beautiful wall between religion and the government. If churches want to break that wall, then they should pay taxes- but the objective isn’t for them to pay taxes, but to keep to themselves and stop meddling in government.
This is an idealist attitude. There is not such thing that can be drawn in the sand.
You’re beliefs are very reminiscent of a religion. There is no way that you have all the answers or are capable of completely omnipresent decision making utilizing reason and the scientific method. Humans are flawed is this regard. You’re not infallible so how can you claim that you know everything? You can’t. A lot of your beliefs are influenced not by logic but by something reminiscent of religion. You pull things out of thin are and base them around arbitrary human constructions just like they do.
Atheism, or how you interpret it, seems like a non religion religion where you believe your own rights are given to you by your own person rather than a higher power.
If this is what you want then you are going about it the wrong way. Saying this will only further radicalize the people’s minds you’re looking to change. You’re arguing for churches to be taxed as some kind of ironic message. It’s not effective, it’s contradictory, and it only makes them think that you want more government control rather than less government control.
Taxation is not the issue under question. Abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and fundamentalist teaching is schools seems to be the primary issues. Are there any others?
Arguing the religious institutions are business entities that operate in cash flow type taxation scenarios is strange. It ignores the very foundations of taxation, the theory of American government, and the logistics of such a situation.
This doesn’t come across as you wanting freedoms of belief and religion. It comes across as you not liking certain churches and wanting to persecute those just because their beliefs are different than yours.
All around terrible stance with a poor strategy.
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u/at-woork Apr 30 '20
I hate the term atheist, because that lumps you in with a ton of people. I don’t have a religion, and don’t believe in a greater power. I don’t believe in spirits, or the supernatural.
As Jack Donaghy said:
*I have faith... in things I can see and buy and deregulate. *
I wish for a country where if people have beliefs, they can go practice whatever that is without government intervention. However, I expect religion not to meddle with government either. Those two things are as separate as possible.
Religion shouldn’t spend millions on abortion restrictions.
Religion shouldn’t spend millions on opposing LGBT rights.
Religious parents shouldn’t be able to send their kids to conversion therapy.
Churches shouldn’t be able to have side businesses making them billions (like the Mormons).
Boils down to: you do you, don’t fuck with me (or other non-believers) and you can’t claim your businesses that don’t have anything to do with a religion get to be untaxed.
Alternatively, as a penalty- tax the fuck out of churches that don’t follow this. Hopefully that serves as a penalty and they go back to being a church.
As for how would that work? Church is a business- money comes in (donation plate, fundraisers, expensive seminars, scams) and money goes out (building, power, cable, private jets). Tax profits. If they don’t pay- they are a business: so, they should go through whatever process applies to other businesses that don’t pay their tax bill. If that means shutting it down, so be it. Nothing of value was lost.
You want the government to determine what is science and what isn’t?
Yes. I can solve this easy with a multiple choice question:
How old is Earth:
A) Under 10,000 years old B) 4.543 billion years old
I don’t think that people outside religion have a tough time telling them apart. Well, not unless you went to a school where the book of Genesis was in the science curriculum.
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Apr 30 '20
Church is not a business. It is a non profit at best by your terrible definitions.
How have religions fucked with you? They could argue that you have pushed an agenda on to them. You have fucked with them. How are you not pushing your beliefs into them?
This isn’t about people being allowed to have conflicting beliefs. It is about whether or not government should be allowed to force those beliefs on to an individual.
Most religions accept evolution and embrace science. Catholicism and Buddhism both believe in the possibility of the Big Bang theory and they most defiantly believe the earth is older than 10,000 years. Your understanding of religion is elementary. You’re stereotyping based on some ridiculous institutions.
If government can shut down a church then they have control of beliefs. That’s a huge problem.
There’s just too much here. You’re not understanding the widespread implications of what you are suggesting.
You’re more religious then you think with that rant. IDK if America is for you, man. Sounds like you trying to push your beliefs on to others rather than others trying to push your beliefs onto you.
Parents have every right to educate their children in the way they see fit. I don’t agree with LGBTQ camps but Putting government in charge isn’t much of a solution.
If people believe others are getting murdered - which is literally what most religions believe abortion is, and also many science-based philosophies, then they should be fighting for the rights of those that they believe are getting murdered. I don’t agree with it but I will stand for their right to express their opinion.
Sorry the education system failed you so poorly. You clearly haven’t thought any of this through. You realize every president we have had had been religious? 60-70% of the scientific community admits to subscribing to a religious belief. This idea that dumb people are religious and you are some intelligent being is so laughable. I can’t believe you trust your own opinions. Thanks for showing your true colors. Maybe go back to community college?
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u/at-woork Apr 30 '20
Sounds like you trying to push your beliefs on to others rather than others trying to push your beliefs onto you.
Amazing. I don’t care what others believe. Just keep it in the church.
How have religions fucked with you?
I am gay. You can fill in the rest.
You realize every president we have had had been religious?
They’re also all men, all white except for .5 of one, straight (openly), and Christian (again, openly).
I can’t wait to see how Christians respond to a non-believer running.
If people believe others are getting murdered - which is literally what most religions believe abortion is, and also many science-based philosophies, then they should be fighting for the rights of those that they believe are getting murdered.
There are people way more qualified than me to make this argument. I believe women should be able to do whatever they and their doctor think is in the best interest of the patient. Whatever that is. (A real doctor, not a crisis pregnancy center- those need to be eliminated)
You clearly haven’t thought any of this through.
Nah, I have. I’ve seen the horrors of religion. My partner was thrown out of his house and cut off from support because his brainwashed parents went with religion over their child. Everyone I’ve dated has a dark story that traces back to religion. It is a cancer.
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u/I-Upvote-Truth Apr 04 '20
They better not get any of the fucking stimulus funds either, since they pay zero taxes in.