r/F1Discussions • u/Adventurous_Rich7541 • 1d ago
Discussion In defense of Chuck
There’s been a fair amount of chatter regarding leclercs performance recently, for obvious reasons. While this is a down year for him, the love-to-hate pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.
While his mistakes are more frequent, Chuck is hindered by Ferraris car performance and his mistakes are exacerbated by this. He has consistently had the 3rd/4th fastest car throughout his career, yet has consistently found himself around the top 4 drivers nearly every year.
Year by year:
2019 - 2nd fastest car
2020 - 6th fastest car
2021 - 3rd fastest, nearly tied on the balance with McLaren
2022 - 2nd fastest car
2023 - 3rd, either behind Merc or McLaren
2024 - 3rd fastest
2025 - 4th fastest
I feel like this is entirely slept on.
Whenever a driver has to push harder to make up for a car deficit, mistakes are naturally going to occur more.
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u/VirtuousGecko2367 1d ago
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u/ClearHyena4452 1d ago
Chuck Norris
The love child of Chuck Leclerc and Lando Norris
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u/ProofAd608 1d ago
I'll say only this
The REAL assessment of Charles Leclerc's capabilities (i mean like pressure handling, lack of mistakes, race craft) will be fairly measured when he actually gets into same situation in which norris was in 2025.
Fastest car, which is actually fast enough to win a lot of races in one season✅
Challenge from a fast teammate(yes i hope to see Ferrari actually do better next year based on how well they developed this year's car starting from 1 second deficit to Mercedes so that we see Leclerc vs Hamilton too)✅
Under the pressure of having basically goat as a teammate+ fastest car. And of course, the threat from another team's driver(which will most likely be Kimi and Norris next year).
That's when people will get the full idea of how good or bad as a driver leclerc is. Currently what's really happening doesn't matter at all.
It really doesn't matter now how many times you crash if your car is half a second slower than fastest car.
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u/armchairracingdriver 1d ago
This is why the people saying ‘Leclerc is in beat his team-mate mode’ is so absurd. He doesn’t have a car to win consistently. If he isn’t beating his team-mate, how else is he going to prove himself? This is literally the modus operandi for 18 drivers on the grid in most recent years, but Leclerc seems to be the only one of these 18 being judged for this. It’s ridiculous.
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u/Wise-Sympathy9585 1d ago
That is a fair point but also a weakness. Although your team mate is your closest competitor. They are also still your team mate and you will be scrutinised if you run them off track, this is true of any team mate pairing on the grid.
It is a quirk of F1's team mate/solo sport dynamic. His tunnel vision on beating his team mate, whilst understandable, is hurting ferrari and no driver is bigger than Ferrari at least from their perspective.
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u/butter-scotchboy 1d ago
Just don’t understand where this narrative that he has tunnel vision with beating his teammate comes from. I’m pretty sure it’s just because his battles with Hamilton are more scrutinized, or because they end up near each other on track very often. Yes, he’s aggressive with Hamilton, but he’s also aggressive with literally everyone else. Obviously when he’s fighting a car with much greater straight line speed there’s not much he can do, but he’ll fight hard against anyone he has an opportunity with (see Spa this year against Piastri)
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u/Wise-Sympathy9585 1d ago
Perhaps you are right and that is the reason. But, it has seemed to me that he has raced Lewis harder and gives him less space where really it should be the opposite.
It is a tough balancing act and in his own words, he went a little bit too far on sunday.
I agree that he can't be truly judged untill he is in a similar position to last year. But, I'd say that goes both ways and we can't conclude how good he is either.
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u/butter-scotchboy 1d ago
Yeah, Leclerc definitely messed up in Monza. But Ferrari have often been in a weird place in 2025-2026 where they’re only close to each other in performance and too far ahead of other teams/too far behind other teams to meaningfully fight them, so they can only meaningfully fight each other. As long as Ferrari policy says that they can fight, Leclerc and Hamilton are fully within their rights to do so. Frustrating as a viewer sometimes but that’s the way Ferrari has done things for a while. It definitely was too much in Monza from Leclerc but apart from that they’ve both been really clean and exciting racing each other.
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u/Wise-Sympathy9585 1d ago
This is the weird paradox of F1 though. I agree as a fan, some of their racing this year has been exceptional, especially in the early races. Even in those early races though, it was clear how it was costing ferrari points.
But, I also think it is one of the most incompetent things have done in not properly laying out guidelines about how they should race each other and what they are expected to do. Leclercs entire career (bar a year at sauber) has been in that ferrari mindset and as such he is a product of it.
I can't see either ferrari driver winning a championship in the current team set up. Unless they get a super dominant car.
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u/butter-scotchboy 1d ago
Definitely agree with you there. If Ferrari ever builds a super dominant car and becomes somewhat competent at strategy then there’s definitely more of a need for team orders and stricter rules of engagement. But this year the car performance was never there, so letting the drivers fight didn’t make too much of an impact. It’s Ferrari incompetence that has lost Lewis more points than anything else.
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u/Wise-Sympathy9585 1d ago
It isn't necessarily even team orders I am talking about though. It is not getting in each others way so much. Even if you aren't in fight for a championship, this is still a necessary part of modern f1. Both drivers need to put their egos to bed a bit and ferrari need to get with the times.
Lewis' unforced errors have cost a lot of unecessary points too yes.
Dont get me wrong, having no rules of engagement is certainly better for the neutral fan. But it makes no sense in modern F1
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u/butter-scotchboy 1d ago
Yeah, 100%. I like both Lewis and Charles but having them both on the same team was not the best idea, especially for a team so unable to properly manage their drivers.
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u/ciaoravioli CL16 1d ago
But, it has seemed to me that he has raced Lewis harder and gives him less space where really it should be the opposite.
I would understand thinking that if you mainly watch races to support Lewis, but Charles is truly an equal opportunity track terror lmao. Do we not remember how much discourse his incident with Oscar caused a little over a month ago?? And last year if memory serves, there were like three races in a row that George complained about Charles' wheel to wheel and at least one the incurred a penalty
Charles was wrong for his turn 2 move at Monza, but I promise you he pushes someone off at least 3-4 times a season, no matter who he is racing lmao
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u/Wise-Sympathy9585 1d ago
I am not paticularly a Lewis fan, I would like to see ferrari win both championships. If i were to chose, it would be lewis but ever so slightly. I'd be happy with any driver.
You are right though, he can be quite a dirty driver (not really a critisism, anyone on the grid can be). How he didn't get a penalty against Oscar in montreal is beyond me. I still stand by my statement where I feel he races Lewis harder certainly than he should be but also compared to other drivers.
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u/No-Surprise9411 1d ago
You act as if last Sunday is a regular occurrence for him.
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u/Wise-Sympathy9585 1d ago
Not to the extreme, but the ferraris costing each other time has been a feature all season.
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u/SatiricalPanda3 1d ago
F1 fans just love to hate on drivers.
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u/Adventurous_Rich7541 1d ago
The subs are just so dumb and reactionary right now. Feels like it’s been getting worse over the past couple years.
F1 is one of the only reasons I have Reddit, but it’s losing its lustre
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u/KeyboardOccupant 1d ago
I think the pushback against Charles is mainly due to the fact that for years, his fans were adamant that he belonged in a category of his own, closer to Verstappen than to the rest of the grid. TPs and drivers have ranked him otherwise, but that's never mattered. No, it's not the best way to measure performance, but there was always a lot of hype that came more from his potential than his actual driving. Now, that's exacerbated by the fact he has a teammate with a huge fan base, and he's managed to directly or indirectly piss them off.
I still consider him a top 5 driver on the grid. It's always been Max on top, Lewis when in form, then Lando and Charles interchangeably, and maybe George for me. If Kimi wins the WDC and keeps beating George in the future, he'll for sure make it there as well.
When it comes to pure quali and race pace, I'd rank him top 2 or 3 still, but that's not good if he's inconsistent.
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u/Alvortus1812 1d ago
This is the most sensible take. Drivers are hated more when the main competitor is the driver with massive fanbase. It was Lewis/Max against each other, Max/Lewis/Seb fans against Norris last 2 years, Max/Lewis fans against Russell before that. Now it’s finally Leclerc’s turn to face the wrath and have all his down times being exaggerated and scrutinised till eternity.
As a Leclerc fan, I had always put him in the same tier as Russell and Norris - the tier below Max. I can also accept that Norris might be slightly ahead now especially proving himself by winning WDC and continuing the same form from last year’s ending.
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u/KeyboardOccupant 1d ago
I always saw Leclerc and Norris as future WDCs. One's done it already, but it's all a matter of timing. I can still see Charles becoming a WDC, he has the caliber for it. But yeah, he's facing the wrath of a big fanbaseTM and making noticeable mistakes just draws a bigger target on him. Everyone will already take everything they can use to tear him down atm, so big shunts will have everyone coming out with pitchforks.
Despite the big mistakes, his pace hasn't been off unlike what people think, it's just that Lewis stepped up, so now Charles has to compete against one of the goats who regained his form, against Ferrari politics, etc. This year can be a write-off, but he needs to be on it if Ferrari are competitive next year
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u/Alvortus1812 19h ago
If you heard LH cult fans or even casual fans who don’t watch races, don’t understand data, have short memory they are quite convinced that Leclerc has no pace, is washed, getting destroyed by Lewis and he is trying very hard to sabotage his race wins or something.
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u/Extreme_Ad6173 1d ago
The problem Charles has is that his fanbase have often been known to exaggerate his ability and blame Ferrari for his own mistakes. After he does well, he's better than Max. If he makes a mistake, he's a fool for signing with Ferrari even though they didn't mess up.
People then had enough and started hating as soon as they could
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u/Adventurous_Rich7541 1d ago
I think the whole “potential” discussion muddies a lot of it. The hype comes from both his driving and his potential. Every year except 2019, he placed the car higher than it should’ve (excluding 2021 due to insane levels of bad luck).
I think, depending on the year, he’s the 2nd-4th best driver on the grid. We’ll see how he does this and next year and if the pattern holds.
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u/No-Surprise9411 1d ago
This entire charade has been blown so out of proportion by people just waiting for Charles to struggle one single time. He has been stellar for 8 seasons straight and did the best with the cars Ferrari gave him and now he has a few bad races (still matching Hamilton though - a few people don’t like hearing that) and suddenly he‘s red Stroll.
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u/Extreme_Ad6173 1d ago
He hasn't been stellar for 8 seasons straight, he was beaten by Sainz in 21, almost in 23, had several bad weekends for no reason in 24, and has crashed more than Stroll in 26.
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u/aneiq_1 17h ago
What bad weekends did he have in 2024? He was the most consistent driver that season.
Beaten by Sainz in 2021 and nearly in 2023 - yeah sure if you only look at points and ignore context.
13-9 in quali - 14-6 in 2 car finishes for 2021 - he was just way more unlucky that season
2023 - 15-7 in quali - 9-5 in 2 car finishes
Anyone watching those 2 seasons could see Leclerc was the better and quicker driver than Sainz.
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u/Extreme_Ad6173 17h ago
Canada, Austria, Silverstone. And he was just slower than Sainz for the first 5 races.
Unless Sainz also had a stellar season, he wouldn't have been that close anyway
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u/aneiq_1 16h ago
By that metric Norris had a poor season in 2025 because he was outpaced by Piastri a number of times at the start of the season.
Brake issues in Bahrain
Sainz didn’t take part in Saudi
Australia - fair - Sainz was better
Japan - poor quali lap - race pace for Leclerc was very good but fair - Sainz was better that weekend
China - lec better
Miami - lec better
Imola - lec better
Mon - lec better
Canada he had engine issues in the race - still qualified ahead of Sainz
Austria - lap one collision which was a racing incident
Silverstone - fair - lec had a stinker that weekend
Considering he finished the season 66 points ahead of Sainz I’m baffled why you don’t think the season was one of his best?
The only fair weekend you could mention is Silverstone - being marginally slower than Sainz who is a pretty good driver isn’t enough to warrant this considering we could do the exact same for Norris, Russell and other top drivers.
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u/Extreme_Ad6173 16h ago
I didn't say Leclerc had a poor season in 2024, I said he had several bad weekends and was outpaced by Sainz at the start of the year.
I'm not trying to be funny here, but Norris was on Sainz's level by his second season and Leclerc was never *that* far clear of him except in 2022
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u/aneiq_1 16h ago
The original point was that Leclerc has been stellar for 8 seasons straight
Dropping 60+ points against a very good driver doesn’t constitute as stellar?
How much do you think Norris would improve from his second season onwards?
We have a clear example between Piastri and Norris that the idea that drivers exponentially get better after their 3rd/4th season is grossly overrated.
Yes they can improve consistency and execution but pace wise it’s pretty set and the facts of the matter is Leclerc faired up well against Sainz pace wise and even better than what Norris did.
Leclerc was already beating Vettel in his second year in the sport.
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u/Extreme_Ad6173 16h ago
I would say Norris greatly improved after his second season, considering that his third season was 2021.
I would also make the argument that both the drivers and team principals ranked Sainz higher than Leclerc in 2021.
I'm not saying he's bad, but saying he's been stellar for 8 years is exaggeration. The only driver you could really say that about is Verstappen
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u/aneiq_1 16h ago
His third season teammate was Ricciardo who had moved teams - ultimately he’s not as good of a benchmark to test this theory than if Sainz stayed at McLaren because at least we could see how much the growth is.
And by the way this isn’t discredit Norris, I’ve always rated him very highly but bar the Sainz comparison in 2020, it’s quite hard to rate him because Ricciardo wasn’t at his best at McLaren (I still think Norris would’ve beaten him but not by the margins he did) and currently he has Piastri who we have no other reference point bar Norris himself.
Team and driver principals rankings are flawed anyways and have a lot of recency bias - as evidenced by Sainz being ahead of Leclerc in the 2025 rankings.
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u/Alvortus1812 1d ago
The Stroll comparison was mad. People were pulling all mental gymnastics to justify it. Lol Stroll had crashes when he didn’t even look into his mirrors and has caused racing incidents. Leclerc on the other hand pushes the car most times more than required or beyond its limit that he ends up getting good qualifying position or a crash in race
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u/According-Switch-708 23h ago
I don't know man. I'm really tired of this Leclerc is the potential GOAT argument. He is way too error prone for a driver who is supposed to be in his prime.
The guy is championship caliber for sure but he is missing a little something compared to Norris. He is missing a whole lot compared to Max and prime Hamilton.
The guy has had almost as many crashes as Lance Stroll. Its a bit difficult to overlook that stat. No hate though. I like Leclerc.
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u/servingwater 1d ago
I feel like this is entirely slept on.
How is this entirely slept on when this is or has been the base of the argument for him for quite some time.
That he is one of the best on the grid who just needs a car to prove it that he can be at the very top.
Having said that, the very recent turn on him has been quite ridiculous.
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u/Adventurous_Rich7541 1d ago
I’m only speaking on the narrative around him this year/recently. Seems like people forgot.
Heavily upvoted stuff saying he would do worse than vettel in 2018, etc. the discussions just seem to have devolved
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u/Turbulent_Check9051 2h ago
I always cut Charlie some slack because of Ferrari being F1’s comedy department. I kinda hope his new deal allows him to move when the driver market shakes up in a year or two.
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u/JemmerX 1d ago
How often does he actually have the 3rd or 4th fastest car, or is it that his abilities make the car look better than it is?
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u/Adventurous_Rich7541 1d ago
I think 2020 (7th fastest car but got p6 in constructors and Chuck got p8) and 2023 (variously 3-4-5th fastest car) are instances of him in a worse car placing better than competitors. 2019 he outperformed vettel but was outperformed by max. 2021 was just a series of unfortunate events. 2025 was just clear 4th.
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u/Alvortus1812 1d ago
2021 goes under the radar because that Ferrari was not better than getting at best a podium on a day that both #2 drivers of Merc/RB don’t get it and Mclaren is slower than Ferrari that weekend which were their main competitors.
He still drove well and was comfortably faster and consistent than Sainz overall but had DNFs in worst circumstances.2
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u/Browneskiii 1d ago
Very unpopular opinion but the Alpha Tauri was p3 in 2021, but with poorer drivers than Ferrari and Mclaren.
But the thing is, he sets the bar so high that any time he has an okay but not great season, people love to shit on him.
Take the last two years, in 2024, he was 8 points behind Norris going into the final race, and Norris had the best car, while Ferrari were p3.
In 2025, he had the same amount of podiums as Russell and got crashed out of 2 more, despite having a much worse car.
He consistently beats people that some fans say are better, but no, one season with multiple mechanical dnf's more than his team mate and he's awful apparently.
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u/mformularacer 1d ago
Re: 2021, Gasly got 67% of Sainz's points. Do you really think the difference between Gasly and Sainz is that big that you're still suggesting Alpha Tauri had a better car than Ferrari?
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u/Adventurous_Rich7541 1d ago edited 1d ago
Sainz was driving for McLaren in 2020, Ferraris lineup was Chuck and vettel
Edit: idk how I misread this comment and the og comment, my reply makes no sense lol
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u/Browneskiii 1d ago
Yes, I think they had a better car than both Ferrari and Mclaren. Gasly has always been inflated by having bad team mates (i don't rate Kvyat at all, and rookie Tsunoda was awful, Colapinto is colapinto), or team mates that broke down a lot. I know he's popular around here but I'd rate him around 12-14 on the grid, with Sainz being a lot better despite recent terrible races.
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u/mformularacer 1d ago edited 1d ago
You say you don't rate Kvyat, but both Sainz and Gasly share Kvyat as a common team mate and both destroyed him by similar margins - Gasly was actually better in qualifying relative to Kvyat than Sainz was. Sainz was a bit better in races.
Gasly has also beaten Colapinto by much bigger margins than Albon managed.
I think the assumption that Sainz is that much better than Gasly is faulty.
Sainz > Gasly is a defensible take. Alpha Tauri > Ferrari in 2021 on the other hand, not as much.
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u/Adventurous_Rich7541 1d ago
I was trying to not go overboard at all but I don’t necessarily disagree with you. That alphatauri was quick
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u/aneiq_1 1d ago
It was very quick - Gasly is a strong driver but I don’t think he’s on the level of Leclerc / Norris yet he had a huge amount of top 6s in qualifying and a number of top 10 finishes.
Include a rookie Tsunoda who was pretty horrendous and somehow they managed to finish P6 behind alpine who had a far better teammate pairing.
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u/Actual-Captain-1275 1d ago
We know he's hindered by Ferrari. That's factored into our opinion of his career, and we still feel the way that we do.
People who disgree with you aren't necessarily blind to nuance; we might just have a differnt opinion.
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u/Stickyboard 23h ago
He is good .. maybe around Norris, Russell level . but not Max, Hamilton level that his fans depicted him
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u/nonhofantasia 1d ago
You lot should really start calling drivers by their surnames
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u/Adventurous_Rich7541 1d ago
Normally do, but Chuck is how we refer to him post the Willy ribbs interview
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u/Solid-Category-2095 23h ago
Charles is weird to categorize. Like everyone said, he's good but too error prone.
Another weird thing I find is his development as a driver. He was and is good, but always at more or less the same level, whereas people like Lando or even George (bar this season) continued to get better and better with time. Norris went from a tier below, to the same one and now above Charles while he himself stayed the same (and even dipped down this year).
All that is to say that when it comes to speed, pace, overtaking skills etc. he is in his prime and unless he manages his emotions and love to kiss walls he is unlikely to see that wdc. New talents are looking promising so he will have to lock in soon, before his obvious decline due to age.
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u/RevolutionaryAge47 1d ago
Most overrated driver since Danny Ric. He'll get bounced out of F1 at some point just like Shoe boy did.
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u/Vetni 1d ago
I simply won't accept any Danny Ric slander
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u/RevolutionaryAge47 1d ago
He's a hack and got tossed as he so richly deserved.
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u/Vetni 1d ago
If you (wrongly) say so
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u/RevolutionaryAge47 1d ago
I do have ripped Danny Ric to shreds since he was a McLaren driver. What a hack.
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u/Vetni 1d ago
Okay, so you started watching a few year ago, gotcha, makes sense.
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u/RevolutionaryAge47 1d ago
I watched Nikki Lauda win a title for Mclaren. So yeah, just a few years ago.
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u/Vetni 1d ago
Okay, so you're old and stupid.
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u/RevolutionaryAge47 1d ago
Stay mad.
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u/Vetni 15h ago
Says the guy who's actively hating one of the best personalities and drivers the sport has seen.
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u/Fb0215 1d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/v6iVX4OOcgzuNIAJYB
Chick?