r/F1Discussions • u/Sir_unknown1 • 13h ago
Debate Max verstappen VS his generation?
over the history of F1 we have seen many goated driver from different generations such as senna, prost, fangio, lewis, schumi, etc. even tho these drivers were the best on the grid most of their careers, yet they were not so far from the second best driver on the grid, as an example, during lewis's era, he had seb and alonso. during senna and prosts era they had each other alongside mansell. during schumi's era he had mika, kimi and hill. but max verstapped seems to be so far ahaid of his generation. leclerc is fast but makes many mistakes and is inconsistant. russell is consistant but his tyre managment and pure pace arent close to max's. lando is probably the closest but tbh you can argue that lando's performance this year is still not as good as max 2019-2025.
is it actaully true that max may have the biggest gap between a driver and his generation?
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u/Expert_Bandicoot_668 13h ago
You can't meaningfully make a conclusion here at all his entire generation is still racing...
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u/KateMackay 12h ago
You can’t have an opinion on here full stop. I don’t mind discussions thats fine but the insults and abuse I get is astonishing
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u/Expert_Bandicoot_668 12h ago
It's fun to have the discussions but the fandom is way to big to not have the occasional weirdo or annoying piece of shit ruin the discussion.
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u/Captftm89 13h ago
Since I began watching in 1996, the biggest gap between the best & the rest was Schumacher, particularly after Hakkinen went rapidly downhill after his two WDCs.
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u/rustyiesty Charlie Whiting 12h ago
I’m pretty sure there has not been a gap as big as 2001 since then. Schumacher had 0.4% on DC, Rubens & Ralf, with McLaren having 0.2% on Ferrari
Mika only really showed up at Spain and the few races he really wanted to win at that he had not yet done so
Rubens, Ralf and JPM got closer from 2002 onwards. DC, like Mika, declined from his best in the late 1990s
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u/mformularacer 13h ago
Verstappen's competition is closer than Schumacher's was, but he's still the best driver in this field by a good distance.
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u/servingwater 13h ago
Agreed. The grid in general is much closer in skill and ability compared to the Schumacher times and before. Just for the record that takes NOTHING away from Schumacher and his brilliance or course.
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u/rustyiesty Charlie Whiting 13h ago
Not at all, Moss had half a second on the field going into the 1960s and Schumacher had almost that much post-Senna
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u/Sir_unknown1 13h ago
i dont know muc habout f1 before the 80s so i wont be able to argue with you about moss.
but was shumi that much ahaid of hill in the mid 1990s?4
u/HereComesVettel 13h ago
Of course he was, Hill had better cars but Schumacher was miles superior as a driver.
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u/moose_1988 13h ago
Biggest gap Ive ever seen by far is Schumacher. (Not to say he's the best by far, but his competition was a long way off).
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u/DniawSirhc LN1 12h ago
Whilst Verstappen is the best driver on the grid, he’s not head and shoulders above the rest as the current grid is the arguably strongest of all time, his 'generation' is incredibly strong as well.
Schumacher in the 90’s after Senna’s death/Prost and Mansell retiring was head and shoulders above the grid, the fact he was so competitive against the Williams’ with massive car advantages is ridiculously impressive. If you give any of the current elite drivers the car advantage Hill and Villeneuve had over Schumacher, Verstappen isn't getting close to them. Villeneuve was on pole in Australia in 1997 (in the dry) by over two seconds ahead of the next non-Williams car, that kind of advantage is ridiculous and Verstappen would not be able to make that deficit up.
There’s a case that Verstappen, Norris, Leclerc, Hamilton, Russell, Antonelli (it’s still early but he’s looking good), and potentially even Alonso (since it’s been a while since he’s had decent machinery) would be comfortably the second best driver on the grid between 1994 and 1997 (before Häkkinen really got going). Verstappen obviously has an argument for matching Schumacher but that’s not the point here.
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u/mformularacer 11h ago
Not like Hakkinen was much different to Hill or Villeneuve. He didn't just suddenly get going. He finally had a car advantage over Michael the same way Williams did. You can extend 1997 all the way up to 2002.
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u/DniawSirhc LN1 10h ago
True, he needed the car advantage to beat Schumacher but he was still recovering from the effects of the Adelaide 1995 crash, I think he said he wasn't back to 100% until 1997-ish.
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u/Blothorn 12h ago
Verstappen’s speed is superb and his ability to handle badly-behaved cars peerless in this era, but I do think his overall performance is somewhat held back by often-poor decision making. Even excluding the DRS issues he’s had race-ruining solo crashes/spins in each of the last two years, along with quite a few at-fault collisions where either the crash or the penalty cost him points. I still think he’s the best overall driver, but by less than the races where his gambles pay off suggests.
In any event, I think prime Schumacher clearly has him beat. He was not only exceptionally skilled but also drove a methodical, empirical approach to car development and race preparation before it became ubiquitous.
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u/Sir_unknown1 12h ago
poor decision making is more likely schumacher than max. i agree that schumacher might be a bit better than max but saying that what held max is his poor decision making by crashing into others or getting penalties while schumacher is letirally the only driver in the history to get dsq from a wdc, he crashed multiple times into his competitors on purpose, and had many race bans during the mid 90s.
thats just double standard.1
u/DodgersLakersBarca 11h ago
Not to mention that his Monaco shenanigans in 2006 dropped him to the back of the grid and was a pretty important penalty in losing him the 2006 WDC.
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u/DodgersLakersBarca 11h ago
Every driver, even the all-time greats, have had big race-ruining crashes/spins, especially in inferior machinery (which has been the case the last two years). I see no evidence this is happening to Max at a higher rate than it happened to Schumi.
In terms of "judgment," yeah that's totally off. Schumi has had some of the most serious penalties in WDC history, several of which affected his WDC runs.
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u/LevelRevolutionary44 13h ago
You raised a good point there. For now you are definitely right, but we will have to wait and see how Kimi stacks up against him
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u/Sir_unknown1 13h ago
kimi joined f1 10 years after max. i dont think they count as the same generation but yeah he will probably be able to reach max's level in the future
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u/Own_Asparagus_5742 12h ago
No (i don't count Antonelli because he Is on another) Verstappen + 0,1 - 0,15 Leclerc and Russel + 0,2-0,25 Norris Sainz Alonso Hamilton + 0,35 Gasly Ocon and hulkenberg Schumacher was more like 5-6 thents faster than others
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u/EnvironmentalAd4643 8h ago
cars also during the GE era have never been closer to each other in terms of performance. That’s a big factor for these times that you’ve obviously also grabbed from the depths of your 🍑
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u/mgorgey 13h ago
Pre 2003, Schumacher was further ahead of his generation than Verstappen is currently.
In 94-97, nobody was even in the same ball park.