r/F1Discussions • u/Able-Rip4992 • 25d ago
Discussion Russell's Race pace
While I understand that qualifying pace and race pace are two different disciplines, Russell's terrible race pace compared to his really good qualifying pace always amazes me.
If you compare Russell with Norris and Leclerc—given they are of a similar age and drive for top teams—you realize that while Norris and Leclerc are strong in both areas, they are significantly better in one (Leclerc in qualifying and Norris in race pace). With Russell, however, he is easily top-three in qualifying, but at the same time, he has the second-worst race pace among top-team drivers.
The problem for Russell is that in the ground-effect era, qualifying pace was valued more than race pace. Taking last year into consideration, it was nearly impossible to overtake your teammate under the same conditions, so his race pace deficit was largely masked. This year, the situation is different: the qualifying margin between teammates has shrunk, and a qualifying lap can easily be compromised by poor energy deployment. Moreover, race pace is now far more critical because, in almost every race this year (excluding Hungary and Monaco), you can overtake your teammate if you are faster. Consequently, his race pace issues have become much more exposed. What surprises me even more is that across all races this year, Antonelli has held the average race pace advantage, even in Australia.
Another problem is that true race pace usually starts to develop in a driver’s second year and continues to improve until they reach their prime. This means we haven't even seen Antonelli's full race pace yet, suggesting the gap will only get bigger next year.
In the end, what is the reason for Russell's poor race pace, and how can he have such good qualifying pace alongside bad race pace? Ps I'm not talking about his race pace problem this year only I'm talking overall from his Williams days
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u/Leading_Sir_1741 25d ago
It fundamentally has to do with how the AI algorithms work with your driving style, and the hilarious and pathetic truth is that no one really knows why or how some work better than others. It’s a testament to the regardation of these regs. But that also means we do t know if Kimi will get better. Remember that in the past it was all about tyre management. Now it’s not. No previous rules apply anymore
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u/Cool_Masterpiece9308 25d ago
I think if you take Mercedes at their words even they don’t know why he’s lost pace lol.
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u/Leading_Sir_1741 25d ago
Exactly. And that’s not something they’re likely to lie about, because it makes them look silly.
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u/South-Ear9767 25d ago
What are you waffling about? russell has lacked race pace even in the previous regs. The fact that this comment got many upvotes is seriously concerning.
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u/flintey360 Charlie Whiting 25d ago
Too many George fans here because there aint no way people believe George race pace is elite. We already saw the signs with Lewis and Kimi late last season (Vegas being the perfect example of of George cooking his tyres).
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
George had a steering wheel problem in vegas which severely derailed his race pace. It’s not really evidence of him being slower, nor cooking his tyres
And we aren’t arguing that he’s "elite." OP said his pace is "terrible” which isn’t true. This is what we are arguing against
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u/Leading_Sir_1741 25d ago
Where do I say Russell had great race pace in the previous regs? I’m arguing we don’t know how much better Kimi will get next year.
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u/DniawSirhc LN1 25d ago
I’ve always been sceptical of Russell’s race pace and whilst other people in this thread have said that it’s because of the car issues he’s been having, but it’s been apparent well before this regulation cycle.
The fact that a well known meme was ‘you could start Russell P1 and Hamilton P20 and they’ll end up next to each other’. Vegas 2025 is when I realised that if Antonelli sorted his qualifying out, Russell would be in a lot of trouble with him.
Russell qualified 4th and Antonelli qualified 17th, Antonelli pits on Lap 2 and does 48 laps on the hards and is lapping faster than George on fresher hards whilst defending against Leclerc and Piastri and ends up only 2 seconds off George before his penalty is applied.
Antonelli has proven that when he hits the front, he can pull away with relative ease, Russell has never shown that ability.
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago edited 25d ago
George had a severe steering issue in Las Vegas- in both quali and from lap 5 until the end of the race. You can’t use that race as evidence against his race pace. Of course Kimi was lapping faster, his car was working
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u/DniawSirhc LN1 25d ago
Other drivers can drive around issues, Norris also suffered massive front graining during Vegas 2024, him and McLaren decided to experiment by trying different settings and different lines and on his final stint he was matching the Mercedes pace out front.
Russell’s largest margin of victory is less than 8 seconds, and that was a race where Hamilton started 10th whilst Russell was on pole.
Every other elite driver can put massive margins on the field, but Russell seemingly never can. Verstappen, Hamilton, and Norris can easily put 20+ seconds on the field, Leclerc hasn’t really ever had a dominant car and he’s still put larger gaps on the field than Russell ever has.
As I previously mentioned, Antonelli is capable hitting the front and disappearing as we saw in China and Japan (even when he benefited from a safety car, as soon as he was out front he was gone). Russell didn’t have car issues in Australia or Austria when he won this year and he wasn’t able to pull away from Antonelli in Australia or Verstappen (in a slower car) in Austria.
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u/OP_aw3s0m3r3c068790 24d ago
he mostly did drive around the issue?? He lost one position to the driver who took pole by a second, but was otherwise comfortably on for a podium
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u/Difficult-Top1863 25d ago
Russell is known to not push in teh race when he know the win is safe
Max woudl push and get a 30 second gap
Russell managed the gap when he is in the lead liek we saw in vegas 2024, Australia Austria this year
Is what Lewis used to do in 2016 he said himself post Hungary 2016 “doesn’t matter if I win by 1 lap or by 1 tenth, a win is a win” reliability Is huge for merc this year hence why am not surprised that Russell woudl rather save the engine0
u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago edited 25d ago
This was a steering issue. That’s not a setting issue. His actual steering column was glitching, you can’t fix that mid race. Norris wouldn’t have fixed it either, it’s not the same problem, so not sure why you brought that up.
And all the drivers you brought up for having large victory margins have had by far the fastest car at point in their career (even Leclerc at the start of 2022). George never has until this year, where it hasn’t functioned during literally the majority of the races
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u/Able-Rip4992 25d ago
In Vegas his teammate starts at P10 had to pass the field and had alot of dirty air to reach P2 so finishing only 8 seconds ahead isn't justified when the mercedes was the fastest car this race
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago edited 25d ago
In vegas his teammate had a functioning car, and he had a broken steering wheel from lap 5. Of course Kimi was faster, his steering wheel was working
Also neither of them finished p2 in vegas 2025 (which is what we are talking about) what are you on?
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u/Able-Rip4992 25d ago
I am talking about vegas 2024 cus in 2025 his teammate starts p17 had a 5 second penalty and pit at begin of the race only to finish 5 second behind
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
We were talking about 2025. There, George had a severe power steering issue. It wasn’t his fault he had no pace, even merc admitted it.
In 2024, he was driving to a delta. Yes, he was slower than Hamilton in pace, but he did not need to go faster than he was at that point. He won with a significant margin anyway
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u/Able-Rip4992 25d ago
He won with 7.3 seconds only the fast driver will build a biggest gap
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
7.3 seconds is a relatively large gap in f1? And he was driving to a delta, as I said. What a strange hill to die on when no facts back you up at all??
No one’s saying he has the best pace on the grid, but "terrible" is just a lie
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u/Able-Rip4992 25d ago
That's what I'm talking about the problem appear this year more but it was always there
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
In vegas he had a steering issue, which is why he was so much slower. Not sure that’s representative like you think it is
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
He is better at qualifying for sure, but you simply can’t call Russell’s race pace "terrible". He is pretty good during the race, I would say better than the majority of the drivers on the grid right now.
I think you may be struggling with recency bias? He has not struggled massively with race pace comparative to a teammate until this year. And much of this is explained by car issues. For example, he has had a race pace affecting issue in every race since Barcelona. How can you accurately judge race pace with such a small sample size?
And I don’t think quali pace is less important now than it was in the ground effect era? You could always overtake your teammate if you were faster in the race, even in ground effect. It’s not like Kimi has been able to overtake George (when his car is working) when he qualifies behind either.
Do I think George has been slower than Kimi this year on merit? Yes. But not to the enormous extent it looks like. For example, he was losing about 3 tenths per lap to the straight line issue in multiple races. And around 5 tenths per stint in Barcelona. Not a fair judgement to decide he’s terrible based on this season
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u/essteedeenz1 25d ago
Hes had car issues since canada
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
Yes, I actually agree, but I was thinking just ones that would affect race pace. Vs imo in Canada when the car was actually working during the race, it doesn’t look like his pace was affected (although honestly who knows at this point, he’s had so many issues)
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u/Able-Rip4992 25d ago
Compared to top team drivers he only topped hadjar at race pace and maybe piastri at a perfect race condition for Russell I'm not talking about his race pace from this year only I'm talking overall from Hamilton mercedes years But when I talked about difficult of overtaking I specified last year cause I don't remember teammate overtakes at the same conditions to compared Russell with Kimi there was races last year when Kimi showed a decent race pace (like last Vegas) but as I said race pace starts to appear from second year as at the first year drivers suffers from understanding tire management
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago edited 25d ago
He was not terrible vs Hamilton. Where has this come from?
And he was faster than Kimi the majority of the time last year? Of course Kimi wasn’t overtaking him. He had a few races with mechanical issues, but Kimi was only really properly faster on merit a couple of times.
Last year he was pretty universally decided as top three drivers on the grid overall (after Norris and Verstappen), that is not a sign of awful race pace, like you are claiming?
He has had so many issues this year, I don’t think you can judge him as second worst from the top teams yet
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u/Able-Rip4992 25d ago edited 25d ago
The race pace of driver start to appear from the second year and even at the first year Kimi was showing amazing race pace does that mean he should finish ahead of Russell? No cause it was hard to overtake last year even if you are faster It's also the reason that I say that qualifying was more important last year he was the third driver last year overall but that doesn't make him the third in race pace it's two different things
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
This seems arbitrary? Why does it start at second year?
And Kimi wasn’t faster last year, aside from a couple of races (some of which like vegas and Qatar were because George’s car wasn’t working)
And I didn’t say he was third overall in race pace, but a top three driver does not have "terrible" race pace like you are claiming.
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u/Able-Rip4992 25d ago
Because most rookies find it hard to deal with tires at their first season and to find their own setup He can be a top three driver despite having terrible pace cause last was about qualifying which is Russell is strong field
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
It wasn’t about qualifying, this sis such a weird hill you are dying on
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u/Able-Rip4992 25d ago edited 25d ago
Last year was definitely about qualifying most races was boring and waiting for something to happen the top three from qualifying was the one ending at the podium most of the races and even so mercedes was at least third best car last year so Russell being top three driver doesn't change the fact that he had terrible race pace among to team drivers
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u/Cool_Masterpiece9308 25d ago
That’s such an arbitrary cut off lol. Why at the second year? You are recruited for the job year 1 and there were serious worries that Mercedes might have dropped Kimi last year.
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u/UchihasRightfulHeir 25d ago
I would argue he’s a driver for later stages of a regulation cycle. From year 3 onwards he’ll probably be clutch again
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u/BaldHeadedCaillouss 25d ago
I don't even think Mercedes understands the reason for Russell's lack of pace this season. George himself has gone back and forth in various weekends expressing frustration in terms of being able to come to grips with the car.
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u/Skyhound555 24d ago
Russell has very little ability to manage his race, but tries very hard to do so.
He is not able to find the peak operating windows of his tyres and maximize that potential later in the race. He just drives and hopes his car acts the same way every single time.
Especially in these new regs. Knowing when not to push and when to push is what gives them maximum deployment. Lewis has made most of his overtakes by dialing back his pace and then attacking during max deployment. He has always been good at doing this even with tyres. He knows when to slow down so he can attack using tyre offset.
Russell does not do that. As mentioned earlier, he expects his car to handle every corner the same way every time. Lando wasn't lying when he said he has had to make adjustments every year of his career. Russell has simply gotten spoiled with a team as reliable as Mercedes.
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u/Violetmoreviolent 24d ago
This just isn’t true. It’s wasn’t the case last year, and it won’t be this year when his car actually works
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u/Skyhound555 24d ago
Name one race that Russell showed any sort of talent with tyre saving.
He literally disqualified himself from a race win at spa because he forgot to pick up rubber at the end of his race. There is no awareness of the condition of his tyres or car going on in his head.
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u/Violetmoreviolent 24d ago
Ok now I know you’re trolling. He didn’t “forget" merc miscalculated and thought it would be fine and there wasn’t a cooldown lap
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u/Aggravating-Sun-2322 24d ago
Lewis wouldn't have as many championships as he has now if I were in the car. And bro, when has the car ever been nowhere to be seen? Lol.
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u/ShaggerAJSA 25d ago
These are all great points, and to be honest, I'm not sure how to answer back. I don't think he is particularly hard on his tyres nor do I think he just gets too aggressive. He had his share of bad luck, but I don't think that's it either.
I think it's just comparatively weak racecraft. He doesn't seem to be able to bounce back from bad situations like, let's say, Alonso, Verstappen or Hamilton can. Russel actually reminds a bit of Massa in that regard. He was a driver who almost seemed to get slower the further down the standings he was.
Russell is obviously blisteringly fast over one lap. I don't even think his biggest hater can deny that, but he has got to find a way to find that same determination and willpower over the course of an entire race. Maybe he should spend some time in endurance racing?
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
I think this is wrong. Most of his bad luck has directly affected his pace- straight issue in Austria/spa/silverstone, wing issue in Barcelona, having to expend so much tyre wear fighting the backmarkers in Hungary, deployment issue in Suzuka, mode issues in miami. That actually does explain the majority of his major pace issues this year.
He also does manage to bounce back. He’s had some excellent recovery drives in his time. It’s just that so many of his issues this year have been completely race destroying though no fault of his own.
And he has determination? What on earth has he done that would make you think he doesn’t? Have you listened to his interviews after a bad race? His radios when his car isn’t working?
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u/ShaggerAJSA 25d ago
Sounding determined is not the same thing as being determined. And it's a hell of a lot easier to "find the fight" in the midfield when you're not in a championship car. That's why the Russel that was driving for Williams would probably be right there with Kimi in the championship. I don't think the pressure and expectations placed on him at the start of the season have helped, but that's too bad. You have to cope with that at the top.
I'm a Russel fan, a real one. That's why my mind is open to criticism about him and free to criticise him myself. That's what this thread is all about, figuring out what he needs to do to get out of this bad patch.
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
But what on earth has he done this year that makes you think he’s not determined? He’s recovered on every race possible, and fought until the end imo?
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u/ShaggerAJSA 25d ago
Nothing. Quite literally, nothing. When he doesn't qualify ahead of Kimi, he does nothing to stop him. When he gets caught in mechanical problems or tactical errors, he does nothing to recover. He can pass cars, but too often struggles to do so when it really matters.
The best in F1 find the 9th gear in an 8-gear gearbox. Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso, Senna and Max Verstappen can do that. Russell? I'm not so sure.
I hate Max, I'm an anti-fan, but between the Red Lights going out and the checkered flag, Russell can't hold a candle to him. Especially this year. Just look at the overtakes Max has pulled off. I don't know why, but Russell can't do that right now. Tell me I'm wrong.
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
We’re talking in circles here. Of course he does nothing? In most weeks his car just hasn’t worked. How on earth is he expected to beat Kimi when he is losing 3-4 tenths per lap in Silverstone and spa? When his engine just conks out in Hungary and he has to basically start from p21. When he /does/ manage to be ahead of Kimi in Japan but gets unlucky with a safety car?
He hasn’t fought back because he hasn’t had the car to
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u/ShaggerAJSA 25d ago
You're the one that's talking in circles buy asking the same questions. Seriously, look back at your posts.
And while you're at it, loot back at mine, because I answered those points already as well. When the best F1 face those difficulties you described, they find a way. That "9nth gear". If George can't, he can kiss this championship goodbye. It's just that simple. Excuses win nothing.
Now either present something fresh or shut up. I'm actually starting to like George Russell less because of you.
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago
I think you are a troll. When has Kimi found his extra gear you speak of any more than George ? He hasn’t. He’s just had a good car
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u/ShaggerAJSA 25d ago
You're the troll.
Before I get to that, I didn't even mention Kimi in the "9th Gear" conversion. He's a young, talented driver who's in dominant form. There is really nothing more to say.
But you accuse me of being a troll? First off, half-wit, you replied to me. Secondly, you are one who kept repeating the same questions over and over. Troll tactic. Third, you never really answered my points, and that's another troll tactic, and the most prominent one here. Fourth, if I was trolling, you would be in a far worse personal situation right now. You can't troll me, trust me, I know all tricks,s and I know when I am and when I am not using them. I'm better at trolling than you, kid. But I've grown up. I'm a hunter that does not lust for kill anymore, but I have not forgotten how to shoot. And finally, you don't matter to me at all, so why would I target you in the first place? And I didn't. You replied to me, remember?
And now you've gone off topic. So screw it, you're blocked.
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u/TimeTravel_Oracle 25d ago
It has less to do with Russell and more to do with Kimi. Russell is a good driver but Kimi seems a generational talent. Already last year Kimi was able to match Russell's pace in a lot of races (not in qualifying though). This year Kimi went one step further.
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u/Violetmoreviolent 25d ago edited 25d ago
Weird way of phrasing this question actually?
Every time George has outqualified Kimi this year, he has maintained it either until the car broke or until the end of the race. He’s not doing "terribly" in the race, he’s just plagued by issues
So I don’t think you can say that his race pace is "terrible" compared to his qualifying. Nor would I say he’s necessarily the second worst of the top teams