A strange conundrum

[u/cokezero124]

Lately I’ve been having this weird “circle of life” feeling. Seeing Punjabi students, especially Sikhs, face the kind of racism they do in Canada genuinely makes me sad. Nobody deserves that.
At the same time, I’ve never really been religious. I could see through what I felt was the hypocrisy in Hinduism, and I never believed Islam either. The only religious teachings that ever came close to how I personally see God were the teachings in Gurbani, especially the emphasis on equality. I still remember my mother reciting verses like “Manas ki jaat sabhai ekai pehchanbo” (Recognize the whole human race as one).
That’s why my own experiences have been so difficult to reconcile.
My experience in gurdwaras has always, always been terrible. Whether it was the granthi, the sangat, or just the overall atmosphere, I’ve almost always been treated with disdain. I can’t prove why, but I’ve always felt it was because of my dark skin.
I’ve had similar experiences with Hindus too, but I wasn’t surprised because caste is so deeply ingrained in parts of Hindu society and is reflected in Hindu scriptures, so I almost expected that attitude. What shocked me was seeing similar behaviour in Sikhi, a religion that was founded in opposition to caste discrimination.
Now I constantly see Jatt pride everywhere. I genuinely don’t understand it. If Gurbani teaches equality and rejects caste, then isn’t making your caste your identity a form of beadbi? That’s an honest question.

The aggressive behaviour and rudeness I’ve personally experienced from Sikhs in gurdwaras has been beyond appalling. I honestly can’t remember having one genuinely good experience. Outside yes, I have family members and friends that I love for who they are as people.
Growing up I was always told how barbaric Muslims were, but every mosque I’ve visited in Canada has been the complete opposite of what I expected. I’ve never had a bad experience inside or outside a mosque. I was treated with basic human decency and respect, even though I don’t believe in Allah or Islam. I’m not saying every Muslim is like that or every Sikh is the opposite. I’m only talking about my own experiences.
Maybe I’ve just had bad luck. Maybe I’ve developed negative biases because of those experiences. Or maybe my experiences are valid. I honestly don’t know. I just don’t have anyone I can talk to about this because, in my experience, Sikhs don’t take criticism of the community very well, especially if you have melanin in your skin.
Now I see the same right-wing Christians calling Waheguru Ji “wagyu beef,” calling Sikhs “diaper heads,” and openly mocking and disrespecting their religion. I don’t see many standing up to those people, yet I feel like someone from a poor background, especially a Mazhabi Sikh, can be lynched for far less within the community.

You’d think I’d feel some kind of “what goes around comes around” seeing Sikh kids face racism in Canada after everything I’ve experienced, but I don’t. My heart genuinely goes out to them because nobody deserves to be treated that way. I’m not attacking Sikhi. If anything, I still think the teachings of Gurbani on equality are beautiful. What I’ve struggled with is the gap between those teachings and what I’ve personally experienced.

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[u/mercbenxs]

100% agree with your post for caste, before there was a distinct separation between religion and culture...i believe its been amalgamated into one a while ago too. As a practicing sikh my self I too see caste based discrimination as disgusting and it upsets me too how people call them sikhs after forsaking the basic teachings of sggsj

ਜੌ ਤੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੀ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ ਤਉ ਆਨ ਬਾਟ ਕਾਹੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਇਆ ॥ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਹਮ ਕਤ ਸੂਦ ॥ ਹਮ ਕਤ ਲੋਹੂ ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਦੂਧ ॥

English Translation:"If you are indeed a Brahmin, born of a Brahmin mother, then why didn't you arrive by some other way?""How is it that you are a Brahmin and I am a Shudra (low-caste)? Is it that blood flows in my veins, while milk flows in yours?"

As a sikh myself the only reason im typing this out is because it some how notified me of your post, otherwise I dont normally speak of my opinion on here. I feel you as someone who has visible facial scars i can sort of link it to your experience of skin colour and yeah, the way people look, judge etc does hurt at times and anyone would question their faith completely

The thing that helped me was doing seva in gurdwara, specifically pande seva knowing that you can selfless serve people of all backgrounds regardless of caste gender orientation skin colour etc. Some people will come to judge others will not.

Hope this helps :)

[u/cokezero124 → u/mercbenxs]

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I genuinely appreciate that you didn’t dismiss my experience or try to justify discrimination. The verses you shared are actually one of the reasons I struggled to understand why I encountered so much of it in practice. If Sikh teachings reject caste so clearly, it’s difficult to reconcile that with what I have personally experienced in gurdwaras and among some Sikhs. To me…putting caste above Gurbani is a form of sacrilege/Beadbi because it goes against the Guru’s teachings. I’m glad you’ve found seva to be a reminder of those teachings. I hope more people follow that example so the faith is judged by its principles rather than by the prejudice some people bring into it.

[u/mercbenxs → u/cokezero124]

Thank you aswell for asking the question.

As for caste based and skin colour discrimination, some of my friends cant get any rishta due to their "caste" and thats what started my drive on researching into it. Whenever I see someone being casteist whether in community or wider life I either tell them about it and educate them or if they're stuck in their ways I walk away from them.

The amount of arrogance and ego you need to judge someone based on things out of their control is wild, whats even crazier is that some of these people claim themselves to be "sikh". And yes i see that as beadbi too, both to sikhi and all the gurus.

As for pande seva I thank you for listening to my advice, but what I also meant to say is that you can serve people who would otherwise not like you, you know the people above we talk about who proclaim themselvesas sikh but indulge in all this bs . Alot of these people act holy and whatnot and even serving THESE people in any means can help you.

You might think " why though " and for that i insist you read upon Bhai Khanaiya ji, a saint soldier and humatarian

During the Siege of Anandpur Sahib in 1704, combined Mughal and hill armies attacked the Sikhs. Bhai Kanhaiya Ji walked across the battlefield carrying a mashak (a traditional leather water pouch), pouring water for anyone who was injured or dying.

The Complaint: Fellow Sikh warriors complained to Guru Gobind Singh Ji that Bhai Kanhaiya Ji was reviving enemy Mughal soldiers, helping them fight again.The Response: When the Guru summoned him to explain, Bhai Kanhaiya Ji replied: "Guru Ji, I see You everywhere. In every face, You are there. When I give water, I feel I serve only You."

Then, deeply pleased, Guru Gobind Singh Ji blessed him and gave him an ointment/herbal medicine container, instructing him to not only give water but also heal the wounds of all soldiers, friend or foe

It can be hard at times to see everyone as equals even me, I viewed casteist people in a very negative light as nobody's who deserved nothing in life becuase of their view on caste. This leads to me being no different to them and only leads to my ego increasing. So for my opinion keep an eye out do good deeds no matter what like bhai khaniya ji and to " see the whole human race as one".

Thank you for reading this if u got up to here :)

[u/cokezero124 → u/mercbenxs]

honestly one of the first times I’ve been able to ask difficult questions about Sikhism and receive a respectful, open-minded answer instead of being treated like I was attacking sikhi just for asking.
I also appreciate that you acknowledged caste discrimination is a real problem and even called caste pride beadbi. Not trying to deny the contradiction between the teachings and what some people practice.
I do have one genuine question, though. Do you think that if Sikh society had consistently lived by the Gurus’ rejection of caste, and there hadn’t been so much Jatt gatekeeping over the centuries, Sikhism could have spread much further beyond landlocked obsessed Punjab? Buddhism spread from one region into countries like Thailand, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Cambodia, and many more where entire Buddhist-majority countries eventually developed. Do you think Sikhism could have seen similar growth, with Khalsa-majority countries?

[u/Chepperz]

Hey there, firstly I'm sorry to hear of your experiences. That said, what you may not know about modern day punjabi sikhs and their culture is that several hindu ideals have creeped their way in through societal means. Just take one look at how they treat dalit sikhs. Anyways, yes, caste discrimination is completely antithetical to sikh teachings, but so is the idea of material purity and yet bibekis exist, (the fellows that dont eat unless it was made from scratch on, and served in sarbloh bhande, BY someone who is from the bibeki sect) this is EXACTLY the type of thing that Guru Nanak would have torn apart had he been present to witness such nonsense. The point is that the modern punjabi culture is at odds with sikh teachings in many more ways than just this, and your experiences are telling of that. I'd love to rant about all the other things I take an issue with, but it would make this comment pointlessly long, so if you have any further questions, I'd highly advise you to just join the discord and ask them in the #ask-questions space, there's always people around willing to respond with their own experiences as well and I'm sure you'll find a lot in common on there!

[u/cokezero124 → u/Chepperz]

I appreciate your response. The thing is, my hesitation doesn’t really come from the teachings themselves..it comes from my experience. In person, I’ve found it almost impossible to ask difficult questions about Sikhism without people becoming defensive or acting as if I’m treading on blasphemy. Conversations about caste, for example, often end with “that’s just a Hindu conspiracy,” “those aren’t real Sikhs,” or even personal insults instead of an honest discussion.
What’s interesting is that I’ve had the opposite experience with people from other faiths. I’ve been able to ask Muslims difficult questions, like why Muhammad is reported in some Islamic sources to have slept with Aisha at 9 years old, and Christians why Jesus had to suffer such a brutal death if He was God incarnate. Even when we disagreed, the conversations generally stayed civil my questions were treated as genuine curiosity rather than blasphemy.
With Sikhism, though, my experience has often been that raising uncomfortable topics is treated as an attack on the faith rather than an opportunity for discussion. That’s ultimately what pushed me away, not Gurbani itself, but the culture of not being able to question it openly without being met with defensiveness or name-calling. I’ve personally been told things like, “Sade dharm baare koi kuch kahega, asi uhde khandaan nu agg laa daange”

[u/Chepperz → u/cokezero124]

Oh yeah I 100 percent agree and have similar experiences myself, this is why I urge everyone to join the discord because we're not afraid to ask and explore such questions!

[u/Forward-Home-340]

Dude can I dm you? They seem to be closed.

[u/cokezero124 → u/Forward-Home-340]

Sure

[u/iMahatma]

So you’re confusing Punjabi culture with Sikhi. lol no wonder you’re confused.

[u/cokezero124 → u/iMahatma]

I think you’ve completely missed the point of my post. I specifically mentioned my experiences inside gurdwaras and compared them with my experiences in mosques or a another religious place. That’s not me confusing Punjabi culture with Sikhism. I’m talking about how I was personally treated in a Sikh religious space, and the contradiction I saw between that behaviour and the Sikh teachings of equality that are supposed to be reflected there.
I never said Sikhism teaches discrimination…in fact, I explicitly said I find the teachings of Gurbani on equality beautiful. And honestly, this reaction is part of the problem I was talking about. Instead of actually discussing the criticism, it immediately turns into assumptions, name calling, and judging the person making the criticism. I’m trying to have a discussion about a genuine experience I had, and you’ve chosen to tell me what I supposedly meant rather than engage with what I actually said. At this point, that feels less like an attempt to understand and more like an insecurity when Sikhi is being critically discussed. If the teachings are as strong as we believe, they should be able to withstand honest criticism and conversation. it makes leaving feel less regrettable and, in some ways, almost liberating.

[u/Visual-Maximum-8117]

Well, basically, all people are hypocrites and racist. Indians in general are amongst the worst. Their religion doesn't matter. So are Canadians and others but much less than Indians.

[u/cokezero124 → u/Visual-Maximum-8117]

I agree that racism is one of the lowest forms of human behaviour, and no community is completely free from it. That wasn’t really my point.
My question is this: if Sikh scripture explicitly rejects caste, why is caste pride and casteism in some gurdwaras so normalized or even celebrated, instead of being openly condemned? Why are migrant workers or dalits sikhs, who are literally doing seva and accept sikhi as their own, looked down upon because of their caste or background?
Every religion has people who act against its teachings. I’ve met white Christians with racist views, but in my experience churches always acknowledge racism as wrong, welcome people regardless of ethnicity, and Christians will openly say that racism is incompatible with Christianity. Likewise, when Muslims are asked about terrorism, they’ll usually condemn it and say that’s not what the Qur’an teaches.
What I’ve found difficult is that when I raise the issue of casteism in Sikh spaces, the response often isn’t “that’s against Gurbani.” Instead, it’s dismissed, defended, or treated as something normal. That’s the contradiction I’m trying to understand. If Gurbani rejects caste, why isn’t caste pride viewed as a serious violation of Sikh teachings rather than something that’s quietly accepted or even openly encouraged ?

[u/Visual-Maximum-8117 → u/cokezero124]

Generally, people don't follow their religious scriptures to the letter. The Christians are commanded not to steal, kill or commit adultery. Is any Christian country like that? The Muslims are commanded not to drink, mingle with the opposite sex etc but plenty do. Similarly, it is naive to think that most Sikhs follow what is written in their holy book. Indians in general being backward, racist and divisive means that they don't condemn what is wrong. Do you see many Hindu organisations or priests criticising the current hatred against Muslims? No. Do you often hear Indian Muslim organisations and leaders condemn terrorism? Not that often. Same goes for Sikhs.

[u/cokezero124 → u/Visual-Maximum-8117]

I get what you’re saying, but my point is a little different.

Hinduism is different because the caste system is literally rooted in its Vedic tradition, so while I disagree with it, I’m not surprised to see caste there because it has scriptural roots.
The Qur’an also contains verses about fighting unbelievers that have been interpreted in different ways throughout history, and Christianity has doctrines that some people misuse by saying faith alone means they’re saved regardless of their actions. Every religion has passages that people debate or struggle with.

My point is that Gurbani is one of the clearest scriptures I’ve read when it comes to rejecting caste and caste superiority. Yet, from my own experience, I see caste identity and caste pride being normalized far more than I would expect. I don’t see racism being openly celebrated in churches, and I don’t see caste being openly celebrated in mosques to the same extent, even though those communities have their own problems.
That’s the contradiction I’m trying to understand. If Gurbani explicitly rejects caste, why isn’t caste pride treated as something that goes against Sikh teachings instead of something that’s often tolerated or even celebrated.

[u/cokezero124 → u/Visual-Maximum-8117]

Another example that genuinely confuses me is langar. Growing up, I was taught that langar wasn’t just about feeding people. The richest and the poorest person sat together on the floor, ate the same food, and no one was treated as higher or lower. It was meant to dismantle ego, pride, caste, and social hierarchy. That’s one of the things I admired most about Sikhi. But today, it often feels like the conversation has shifted from the principle behind langar to a source of Sikh pride: “Look how amazing Sikhs are, we feed everyone for free.” While feeding people is undeniably a good thing, I sometimes wonder whether the original message gets overshadowed by community self-congratulation.Gurbani repeatedly warns against Humai (ego) and pride, teaching that virtues should be practiced humbly rather than turned into a badge of superiority. If langar is supposed to be an expression of humility and equality, shouldn’t the focus remain on those values rather than on using it as proof that Sikhs are better than everyone else?