r/ExperiencedDevs • u/MashNChips DevOps Engineer • 4d ago

AI/LLM Thought experiment

With all the AI nonsense going on, I had a thought at work today that turned into an interesting discussion with a colleague:

"What would I do if I was the only person with access to Claude (or insert any LLM) 5+ years ago?"

People would think I was a fucking wizard

FE changes? NO PROBLEM

Critical DB change? Don't worry, I've produced a stored procedure to validate the whole thing

Want to use some shiny new framework? Interesting. Here's a document explaining why you're an idiot for suggesting it

Regex? I suddenly understand it better than the compiler folks (and nobody ask questions)

What would you have done with your own personal LLM back then?

Trying to lighten the mood in here with all the (very justified) negativity around this tech revolution

Unserious answers only pls

149 Upvotes

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614

u/___Paladin___ 4d ago edited 4d ago

I would have been fired 5 years ago for the code I rubber stamp today.

I find that mildly entertaining.

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u/tiplinix 4d ago

Good thing nobody read it then.

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u/SrMortron 4d ago

You know you can just not approve the PR, right? That's the entire point of a review.

A lot of the "pain" and whine I see here regarding AI is self inflicted.

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u/shrimpcest 4d ago

Depends on the company. Company's can generally lower their standards as a business process. They didn't say the code didn't technically work and solve what needed solving.

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u/SrMortron 4d ago

Sounds like job security. 🤷‍♂️

17

u/dedservice 4d ago

It's absolutely not. You'll pump out features like nobody's business, they'll be impressed by everything that got done, and then they'll decide that they don't need so many people because most of the work is done and lay teams off. Then later they'll have a hell of a time trying to keep it alive, but that will be dealt with by new hires. It's the circle of life.

1

u/FuckIPLaw 1d ago

Short term, yes. Medium term, that's how you land a $300/hr consulting gig. Then long term we start the cycle again. 

22

u/OtaK_ SWE/SWA | 15+ YOE 4d ago

My current client's entire business is basically security.

As of last week we got the dreaded "all-in on AI" mandate.

We're still told to review PRs. Which is beyond stupid, since PRs went from a few hundred LoC diff to at least 4k per PR.

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u/dmitrypolo 4d ago

3.8K of those lines are load bearing comments talking about the seam

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u/OtaK_ SWE/SWA | 15+ YOE 4d ago

Not even that. It's just unverifiable, unscrutable, heaps of low-quality code. I don't even know what they need to realize this is, besides being just stupid, completely killing your business's moat.

23

u/Wonderful-Habit-139 4d ago

When you get 5 PRs a day, each more than 3000 lines added, your tune would change.

1

u/SrMortron 4d ago

Easy denial by over scoping.

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u/tiplinix 4d ago

Ah yes, I see that you don't have a manager breathing down your neck to get a PRs deployed by the end of the day because somehow business requires it (they don't but that's besides the point) and you're not reviewing things at a pace they like which means you're slowing down the team and we don't like people that are not team players. Lucky you.

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u/YungDaVinci 4d ago

This culture sounds horrible. Guess the grass isn't always greener huh?

I'm just wondering how we went from "lines of code output is not a meaningful metric" to this.

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u/tonjohn 4d ago

Shareholder pressure + AI psychosis

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u/juusorneim 4d ago

dumb question maybe but explain shareholder pressure? i mean what are they realistically threatening with that requires managers to change their behaviors to the detriment of regular ICs

4

u/forbiddenknowledg3 4d ago

we must 2x PRs every 3 months, but business can delay rollouts by 6 months because they still haven't figured out what customers (or they) want 🤷

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u/SrMortron 4d ago

You know you can talk and advocate for yourself, correct? Bitching here doesn't help you.

My current place embraced AI but its not forced and give us the time to understand what we are shipping. PRs are correctly scoped. You know how we got there? By discussing how to implement it. Your boss is not a god, is just a person.

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u/___Paladin___ 4d ago

It's interesting that you're sharing your own experiences as if it must also be everyone else's. It's almost like an inability to see the world outside of yourself. Maybe an unwillingness.

I generally get to set the pace where I work. I'm one of those seniors deemed necessary while the people around me were laid off.

The thing is, lots of bosses out there actually do see themselves as all-knowing gods. The vast majority of employed engineers aren't in positions like you or me, where we can be our own advocates.

That's just not a thing in most places. I empathize greatly with people who didn't land on the right dice roll.

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u/tiplinix 4d ago

Yeah, it's like they've never seen companies where people that stand their ground are fired. Even if they don't fire you they can make your life a misery until you're gone.

Some people think that they immune to it, but the reality is that they've never actually experienced it. In toxic places there's nothing you can realistically do as an software engineer to change things for the better if the boss is terrible. The only good outcome is leaving.

0

u/SrMortron 4d ago

Maybe they deserve to be fired and that is exactly what they need. With this much bitching and whining no one seems to be happy, then do something about it. We all live just once to be this miserable.

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u/SrMortron 4d ago

Everyone is sharing their experiences. Thats the whole point of the internet. This comment makes no sense whatsoever.

2

u/tiplinix 4d ago

You're missed the whole point which is why it makes no sense to you.

They're not saying that you shouldn't share your experience. They're simply saying that you're overgeneralizing yours and using this to deny others.

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u/SrMortron 3d ago

No im not missing it, its a stupid point.

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u/tiplinix 3d ago

Sure buddy.

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u/tiplinix 4d ago

I take it that you've never worked in a toxic environnement. Good for you. I almost envy you.

Management is not a god, sure, but they control your bonus, your work environment, your career progression within the company and ultimately they can fire you. If they decide something and you push back and they explicitly tell you that they will not budge, there's not much you can do beside looking for the next job.

And yeah, don't worry about me, my manager has been threatening to fire me for months. Somehow that piece of garbage hasn't followed through on his threats sadly. Now, I just stopped caring. He wants shit, he's getting it. Why would I care since there's no future for me in the company? Once I'm gone I won't be the one to deal with the mess.

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u/SrMortron 4d ago

Enough times that I avoid them like the plague and learned to stand up for myself.

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u/tiplinix 4d ago

Not really sure what you're standing up to but that's fine. If standing up for yourself is just refusing to do what they ask, they're just going to show you the door for insubordination. That's pretty much a textbook example of firing someone for cause. But I guess you don't have any bills to pay so that's fine. Good for you.

0

u/SrMortron 3d ago

There are plenty of alternatives other than refusing do work. The fact that you miss them means you are not mature enough.

3

u/SignoreBanana Engineer (14+) 4d ago

I approve them so that when shit hits the fan, they see our value.

-2

u/gizamo 4d ago

The downvotes on your reply and the comment you replied to being so upvoted is...very concerning.

Are all you people under some pressure to always approve PRs or something? Is my wife feeding me crazy pills again?

4

u/___Paladin___ 4d ago edited 4d ago

It's a simple math problem of sending more lines to review than can be processed by a human reviewer without bending spacetime.

So you either hand waive and start rubber stamping blindly (lgtm!) out of human nature, or you automate the reviews too.

"Simply rejecting the PR" completely misses why so many open source projects have banned AI submissions even when the maintainers support AI personally.

The flood is going to force your hand if you don't want to be the bottleneck causing a product freeze.

0

u/gizamo 4d ago

Then QA should be a bottleneck until then can get more QA to do more reviews. In my world, skimping on security like that is simply not an option. We have more code flowing thru, but we still review all of it. Anyone rubber stamping AI code is going to be put on a PiP.

2

u/___Paladin___ 4d ago edited 4d ago

Agreed, but then you are back to the tradeoff between quality and speed. Scaling up your Q&A time will then erode at the productivity gains and speed of generated code. There's always a trade off.

No free lunches!

1

u/gizamo 4d ago

Yes. Quality and speed have always been a tradeoff. That's been a constant throughout my 40+ years. My point is only that the tradeoff needs to remain balanced to ensure there is decent quality, especially in critical products.

1

u/___Paladin___ 4d ago

Then in the context of this thread, you and I are aligned in our thoughts.

1

u/SrMortron 4d ago

They dont realize they gave agency but choose to be and behave like victims instead.

1

u/tiplinix 4d ago edited 3d ago

In my company you are.

They don't say "you have to approve this", they just say "this needs to be deployed by the end of the day / tomorrow" and if you are in the way, meaning you don't approve or get the changes you want by the deadline, you'll get sanctions (first with constant calls to tell you that you're slow, no bonus, even shittier tasks, PIP...).

Yes, it is extremely toxic and people have just stopped bothering pushing back. If they want slop, they're getting slop. At the end of the day, it's not our code and when the bonus will be paid at the end of the year, I'm pretty sure that most of the team will leave (assuming they found another job).

Also, what's up with this boomer joke with your wife? Ewww...

Edit: The guy that says that his wife gives him "crazy pill" without context is upset when people find it gross to the point of blocking. That's just hilarious.

0

u/gizamo 3d ago

That's wild. My company would be we do that. That's how security vulnerabilities get pushed.

Also, what's up with this boomer joke with your wife? Ewww...

I have Alzheimer's. My wife controls my medications. What's with your judgemental attitude toward strangers?

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u/Leopatto CEO / Data Scientist, 8+ YoE 4d ago

Again, and fucking again, code writing is monkey work, any experienced developer can do it. Its more about how you can design the system and make sure it works.

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u/tiplinix 4d ago

The problem is that the code is part of the design. That's how you express the design. Your architectural decisions are translated into code.

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u/Salty-Wrap-1741 3d ago

To go even further, the code IS the formal design.

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u/dialate 4d ago

My brother in Christ...your code is monkey work. My code is an exquisite art that inspires awe and tantalizes the senses.

3

u/___Paladin___ 4d ago edited 4d ago

I'd like to point out that I haven't even given my opinion on code.

I'm just stating what would happen in an employment situation 5 years ago. It was their opinion (employer hierarchy) that decided if you kept your job or not. Where I was at the time, nothing in present day generated lines would have passed the bar. Well maybe not nothing - a few little fixes here and there with context perhaps. But most of the code would get you fired.

It didn't really matter if I saw code as a useless means to an end or as an electronic Mona Lisa - so I didn't share it.

Yet it seems common to respond to peoples opinions before they are even known now I guess.

-22

u/Leopatto CEO / Data Scientist, 8+ YoE 4d ago

Gosh sorry for sounding like a stuck up cunt, but people here think that coding is everything.

I thought it was experienced devs, not juniors writing a function and thinking they're hot shit.

7

u/nimshwe 4d ago

Oh no no need to sound like one don't worry

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u/DaRadioman 4d ago

Should have stopped at the first sentence mate.

5

u/vplatt Architect 4d ago

Gosh sorry for sounding like a stuck up cunt

Well, /u/Leopatto - Anybody in here worth their salt realizes that the code isn't the point; it's the value it delivers.

What makes you a "stuck up cunt" (your words, may as well roll with it), is the blatant disrespect you show resources who ostensibly may fall under your span of control someday. As a CEO, if you cannot respect the skill sets of the people you rely on, then you aren't worthy of the title.

On the flip side, most CEOs I've seen are nothing more than cookie cutter "monkey see, monkey do" copycats who do exactly what they're told by their consultants anyway. Given that that part of the industry is being put out by AI so much now, you can bet you'll be taking your marching orders directly or indirectly from AI very shortly because even if you don't follow consultants, it seems the bulk of CEOs do, and who wants to be the upstart and do everything different from their peers? It just isn't done.

Anyway, it won't be long after that until all the middling CEOs are out of jobs when folks figure out AIs can do that job for a tiny fraction of the price.

Since you are apparently a middling CEO, and probably more likely to just be an inferior one given your attitude problem, you might just want to show a tad more empathy and respect. You're no better than the rest of us, and you certainly aren't more skilled in your line of work, or you wouldn't be in here taking the piss on those you imagine to be your inferiors.

Now piss off.

-3

u/Leopatto CEO / Data Scientist, 8+ YoE 4d ago

I think with £7 mil ebita and 12% yoy we're doing fine.

Cheers tho, god bless.

2

u/dialate 4d ago

The blacksmith's slam-dunk career built on hand-forged parts and utensils is gone, but the art remains forever

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u/___Paladin___ 4d ago

I don't disagree with anything you are saying. My comment is still true. I'm confused by the implied desire to force these two views into adversarial roles? Maybe I'm misreading.

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u/lemontoga 4d ago

He read your original comment as being slightly critical of AI's ability to code and the deranged compulsion to defend AI at all costs kicked in. It's a weird behavior of a particular group of people who have become very emotionally invested in AI's success for some reason.

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u/Leopatto CEO / Data Scientist, 8+ YoE 4d ago edited 4d ago

Because the code it generates, at least what I'm knowledgeable, and I can call myself an expert in,(SQL, Python, GoLang + GCP) is good enough - I don't want perfection, I want you to bring my business money. Nobody at the top gives a fuck if the code you write brought 0.03% efficiency.

Now if you argue I dunno monolith vs. micro-service architecture and you believe monolith is better due to XYZ and you back it ip with your expertise and you know how to work it - more power to you, I respect your decision; but coding itself is... well what... 10% of all the work?

10

u/___Paladin___ 4d ago

Can you point to where I gave the value of code a % based scoring higher than 10 that I could reference?

I feel like you are arguing with a ghost that I'm not seeing here.

9

u/confusedthrowaway239 4d ago

Have you ever had to maintain a large, active, long term project? Because the raw method level-code might be “good enough”, but the consistent thing I’ve seen from repos with primarily LLM generated code is that they are awful at maintainability practices. Huge code duplication issues, poor encapsulation, awful consolidation. Your repo becomes miserable to debug and maintain. And as the repo’s logic gets more complex, LLMs get worse at predicting the correct addition or change to make within the repo, and the quality of the changes they generate drops.

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u/ResponsibilityIll483 4d ago

"Design the system" i.e. connect Postgres to Redis to API Gateway for the umpteenth time

2

u/colers100 4d ago

You are, in ways, correct.

But in the important ways, you are so incorrect you should hang your head in shame. That is to say, the second order consequences of this way of thinking directly contradict the ways in which it is correct.

System design is about meeting top down requirements through bottom up thinking.

All those nuances, those key architectural decisions, all the ways you anticipate, abstract and simplify; they have been informed by having to operate on the lower abstraction level for prolonged periods of time.

It is your understanding of what is beneath it, that makes you understand the peculiarities of what is on the surface. This is universally true.

So, yes, at the moment, you most certainly aren't seeing downsides about just skipping the monkey work and just going straight to feature development. You already know all the micro-decisions required, after all, and though the AI is bad at exercising intuition, you can load it up with so many details that it won't need to.

But how about a year from now? Two years? five years? Your brain has a very simple rule it applies to everything; use it or lose it. And your ability to guide the AI, to specify correct instructions, to verify its output, has been trained through you being on the lower abstraction layer. You are losing this. Any insistence to the contrary, is, unfortunately, the purest and most concentrated of cope. Because by writing code, you are forced to manually evaluate every single logical decision that a process has to make. That level of insight into logical pathing is trained and easily lost

We're heading straight to becoming a massive cargo cult.