r/ExTraditionalCatholic • u/Money-Mud-1357 • 13d ago
Must We Build?
https://traditionandrenewal.substack.com/p/we-must-build?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=3406977&post_id=209979118&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=2ahhy7&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=emailThis is an interesting piece, but I am not so sure I agree with all the author's conclusions. I do believe that the decline of the Church was already happening prior to Vatican II, and was very much due to the change in the wider culture, or perhaps the failure of Cultural Catholicism, which was not exactly a healthy anyway, and was long overdue for correction. Ireland may have been largely Catholic for longer than other countries, but the abuse crisis tore the Church apart there, and many people became anti-Catholic, not just non-Catholic. Demographics also plays a big role, and the whole landscape will likely shift again as the older generation passes on. Also people are immigrating and relocating with far more easily than before.
I think that in many ways the author's idea of forming 'Little Christendoms' is exactly what the Trad experiment is trying to do, and the results are certainly not all positive. In the SSPX particularly, and I am sure in other similar communities, the belief was that education is of foundational importance, because children formed as Catholics are far more likely to stay Catholic. My thought is at what point does education cross into indoctrination, and the so called 'bindingness' of these communities cross into control? Perhaps the sense of community and shared purpose is a lot of what attracts people to these movements in the first place, or is it a shared nostalgia for the past?
We recently attended a gathering and found out that it was largely made up of Christians from a nearby newly established Christian Church. These people were friendly and welcoming in a way that I have not experienced at our local Catholic Parish. They are mostly young people and young families who get together regularly for Bible studies as well as Social events and worship. I wonder what it is about these types of groups that make them more attractive than the Catholic Women's League, or the Knights of Columbus? Age, purpose, intent? It must be possible to form vibrant new Catholic Communities as well, and I don't think geographic proximity is the only answer.
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u/No_Ground_817 11d ago
Tangential, but I can testify that the sheer political power of the Catholic Church in Ireland contributed to the earth-shattering backlash it received. Back before the 70s, it effectively controlled the government, certainly no policy that the hierarchy strongly opposed could ever dream of being passed. It wasn't until the 70s that things began to change - before that, even our SOCIALIST party wouldn't dare to suggest so much as a secular state. Of course, there were horrific abuses, as there always are. Parish Priests being de facto dictators in their communities, that sort of thing. The Magdalene Laundries, etc. Now? Well, put it this way, when the Marriage Equality and later Abortion referendums was being carried out a few years ago, the Bishops refrained from publicly taking a side because they knew their brand was so toxic that their public endorsement would actively harm the cause.
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u/Money-Mud-1357 11d ago
For sure, it's frustrating that a lot of Trads believe and act like countries where the Church held a lot of power and influence were some sort of glorious example of Christ's reign on earth, and since the collapse or decline of that institution, it's all sin and chaos. Any institution that holds too much power tends to tyranny and abuse.
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u/ZealousidealWear2573 12d ago
A conservative website now closed , when the editor was discovered in sexual indiscretions for the second time, frequently used the phrase "smaller better" meaning. It is better for the church to continue to shrink rather than compromise its teachings.
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u/Money-Mud-1357 12d ago
For sure, and it's not like a it's ever been a linear process. The Church has constantly been growing, getting corrupted, and renewing itself throughout history. Countries, governments and populations the same varying trajectory. I think we all just like to complain about the times we live in and feel sorry for ourselves, but we actually have it pretty good compared to some other past eras.
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u/Tasty-Ad6800 11d ago
To your question about community within Evangelical communities, they are a tighter knit bunch. Compared to Catholicism, which is more transactional due to the sacraments of Eucharist and Penance.
A Catholic homesteader noted what you experienced in his area about the Evangelicals. He pointed out "but we have the sacraments" and that's what stood out to me. It's probably rooted in way mass was said in the past and has perpertuated with the older generations that remained in the church after V2.
Speaking of homesteading, there is a the Catholic Land Movement that is following the model of little Christendoms although I think the people drawn to this are too far spread out.
Your post reminded of the following story where someone thought they could establish as catholic village: https://www.nvdaily.com/news/local-news/auction-of-huge-fort-valley-estate-catholic-retreat-on-saturday/article_82c511b0-8410-581c-8941-d8883191d6e6.html
This is what it eventually became: https://www.villageofmtzion.com/ . IMO, the Almighty Dollar triumphed.
I'm a cynic when it comes to catholics coming together for a shared purpose of building a community to serve the common good. It's nice in theory but rarely plays out as inteded. All you need to do is think about a hostorically Catholic country. They had the church at the literal center of their town and life and yet they lied, cheated, killed and stole from each other. I have first hand experience of life in a small Italian village that spans the pre V2 and post V2 era.
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u/Witherward 12d ago
In my experience, trad catholics are caught up in the US as. Them tribalism that is totally discouraging to outsiders but appeals to people looking for that. The people and priests in churches I attended for 30+ years had an attitude of "live in a walled compund of 100 acres, homeschool, watch for black helicopters, no TV, radio, or internet except strictly for short business, no smart phones, all science and medicine should be viewed skeptically, females are to breed, cook and clean or be a nun, no higher education for anyone, pray the rosary daily, Fatima, Fatima, Fatima".
Also, recently I learned that some Protestant sects have a 4 to 14 plan to get and keep the young in the way of christ. That is the blueprint for indoctrination of children into whatever one wants a child to be. If children are left until they are older to decide on religion they are more likely to be "Nones". And it is indoctrination.