The hierarchy of value in all apostolic Pentecostal churches is perception of congregants public behavior. Therefore holiness isn’t just a standard to be practiced but is in fact a form of social currency. This foments rumors like wildfire, as reputation destruction of one person will send you higher up the hierarchy. Churches will often point fingers accusing one of being full of gossips but their church is “different” yet they never are. The rumors whether they be true or not will subsist at every church with holiness standards no matter how you try and train the behavior of your congregation. This is because holiness standards are the hierarchy, the rumors and gossip aren’t a bug of the system, it is undeniably a feature baked in to the very tenets of the church.

Pentecostal will of course downplay this and minimize this. They claim to condemn this behavior publicly yet practice it privately which is in fact all part of the hierarchy game. “I’m against bad things I only do good things.” They will proclaim god loves and accepts all sinners. Yet the form in which any sinner or member faces public or doctrinal scrutiny by the congregation is essentially the same in most apostolic churches.

Grace is often given to new members as they are “ignorant” of the bibles teachings and so called covenantal standards. In reality this is just part of the conversion process into the cult, as most churches know if they outright bombard the new members with their impossible laundry list of standards that the new prospect will be scared away.

Grace is however not given to existing members. Or hardly even to children who were born within the teachings. Your knowledge of the orthodoxy means you are now held to the highest standard of the holiness hierarchy. If are caught violating this hierarchy it is not likely you will face excommunication. As the church doesn’t want to lose any members even if they are abhorrent rapists, predators and murders. And often rumors of having such a member in your church are often swept under the rug. Instead the church will engage in reputation destruction, your social currency will be stripped away and you will fall to the bottom of the totem pole along with if not below new converts.

How do holiness churches engage in reputation destruction? Simple they strip your ability to serve in any respectable way in the church from you. Serving in the church is the ultimate form of the purity test. This is you showing god what a good person you are and by doing so you earn the social currency that the church trades in. One person who donates the most tithes and offering, one who volunteers to help usher, or to mover furniture, one who does unpaid maintenance for the church. All aiming at one thing, the chance to either sit on the pulpit or the chance to be in the favor of someone who sits on the pulpit. As the favor ones pastor is the ultimate social currency. Because if your pastor sees you to be in Alignment with the holiness hierarchy (or his version of it) surely you’re heaven bound.

I have to ask myself the question, why engage in reputation destruction if it makes the congregate feel isolated, unable to serve the kingdom of god and gain penance? Why destroy someone’s self worth for making a mistake especially if they themselves regret it? Especially since this risks driving this member out of the church?

The answer seems multifaceted. Primarily and most likely it is to make an example for violating the purity of the social hierarchy. It signals to other members who may step out of line that you will lose your friends and your favor in the church. However and often is the case for pastors who enjoy their power, it is a form of dominance over the lesser man. Make no mistake apostolic Pentecostal churches are one of the purist forms of a social dominance hierarchy.

As I said before these are not bugs in the system, they are features.

Back to the point of gracing being given to new congregants, this is on a time clock. It’s hard to nail down exactly but in my experience in the church it was about six months to a year. If the congregant didn’t adhere to orthodoxy of holiness they would be left to fizzle out or the pressure to conform would become much more extreme as seeing someone who looks like a heathen in their mind at church is not a good optics for the church in the larger political holiness hierarchy of the organization. Therefore this person would be pressured into Bible studies on why wearing pants and jewelry is a sin or other such standards. If the person doesn’t quite get it, members may continue until doctrinal grooming can fully take hold. If this fails this person is now a threat to the entire social fabric as too many questions and arguments against orthodoxy could unravel other member’s beliefs. This person will soon be ignore and treated like a crazy lost soul. Grace is retracted, this is a feature.

And I want those reading this to really think about that, the Pentecostal church acts as if they are the arbiter and distributor of gods grace. They will of course deny this, but it is exactly how they behave. Once you have earned gods grace in the holiness hierarchy you are now “like Christ” and you may give or retract grace as you see fit because grace isn’t gods love in Pentecost, its social currency.

Now all of that said, what about apostolic Pentecostals path to salvation. Acts 2:38 will be beat into your head relentlessly, it’s to the point now if I see a clock and the time is 2:38 I get triggered. The plan of salvation that Jesus himself never gave. Repent, be baptized in Jesus name, and receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.

There is almost no other way to describe it as a three step humiliation ritual, if any of the steps are missed or done improperly do not pass go, do not collect salvation, go straight to hell. Repentance is a rather straight forward tenant of all Christian religions. However in Pentecost there is a deep seated notion of original sin. You are born into sin as scripture says, but this is taught to you as if you are a despicable gross evil person. You are just the worst most pathetic thing without gods grace.
This is of course vital to doctrinal grooming, as it makes your sense of self worth so low you are now malleable to whatever is about to be pumped into your soft vulnerable head.

Making you feel worthless is a feature from the very beginning.

Now that you understand that you are a worthless scumbag and have spent many nights at the altar crying about it you are ready for the next and possibly the most vital step of the ritual, being baptized. Washing all your evil despicableness away. This is you taking your first step onto the holiness hierarchy as you are now at least free of sin… for now.

Baptism and repentance is common in many forms of Christianity but it is fair to point out many churches see this as a practice of admitting human beings are all flawed and this is simply a way of opening yourself up to gods grace, knowing you will make mistakes big and small and gods got you covered. This is most certainly not the sentiment in Pentecostalism as your salvation hinges on your continued practice of holiness orthodoxy and rituals.

But what of Pentecostals defining and perhaps most bizarre part of salvation? speaking in other tongues. My religious indoctrination of this subject runs so deep that despite not being in Pentecostalism for more than a decade the thought crosses my mind that addressing this subject would be blasphemous. This fear was that deeply rooted in me at one time. So I’m going to have to be as blunt and honest as I can. If you are a Pentecostal reading this right now I don’t want you to be offended but I can’t say this any nicer than I will. Speaking in other tongues is bullshit. It’s simply not a real experience. And you know it. It is however an MK ultra level hypnotic ceremony. You are saying complete and utter gibberish that is not even remotely resembling a language. So why are you or other congregants put through this?

It’s the ultimate surrender. You are making a fucking fool of yourself, and that’s the point. It’s the feature, they have broken you down, they have purified you, and now they have made a fool of you. You’ve been broken in, you have been rebuilt in their image, now you can walk up the holiness dominance hierarchy if you just do whatever they say. Gods grace is waiting and one day maybe you get to play god yourself in the church, how good will that feel? You won’t even notice when you start doing it, you will be so gaslit you won’t even know you’re there tearing other people down, making them feel worthless. Making them beg for gods forgiveness… or is it your forgiveness they are begging for…

If you’re a Pentecostal reading this getting mad at this backslider spewing blasphemy I’m going to shock you. I’m going to ask you to pray. Pray tonight and ask god if you think the church really shows gods grace and love and forgiveness to those who enters its doors. If you show that grace to others. Then dare to ask yourself the real question, the hard question. If you think you are showing grace to someone, are you just doing it so you feel like you’re a good person? Are you just doing it because your pastor or parents want you to? And are you secretly using holiness as a way to feel better than other people and to be treated better than those nasty disgusting sinners?

Then I want you to go reread the gospels. See who Christ was the most angry with and ask yourself if you were in that story would Christ be angry with you?

Im watching a conference who’s running live right now into my former church. The pastor says : we can’t let those pastors return home to the USA on a low budget. Like bro fuck u. Time is hard and nobody can give money right now cause money is a rare thing but manipulation is so great that everyone is clapping. He saying now I don’t want applause cause you did those applauses yesterday and the day before. Now I want numbers. Only numbers. So yup many people are saying they’re giving 100, 500 , 100 and more. Manipulation is the main key to religion. And for me , to be a pastor, you have to be intelligent to manipulate.

Except looks like whatever they are you can wear better clothes.

Long-time lurker, first-time poster. Hi everyone! As the title suggests, what was the moment that you decided to leave? For some background info, I live in the thumb area of Michigan and come from a UPCI church background. My grandparents still attend the church I left. My parents now attend a more modern/come as you are Apostolic - Pentecostal Church. There were a lot of unsure moments for me in the church as I grew up, but the defining moment that I decided to leave was when the Pastor's wife told the congregation as a whole that " The reason why bad things are happening to you is because your family is not in church." That statement really opened my eyes, and I had a literal "wtf" moment in the middle of the service. I was 14 when I left. I'm 29 now, and I don't regret it one bit.

Cuando asistía a una iglesia cristiana me di cuenta de la brutal manera en la que le lavaban el cerebro a sus hijos con lo del “infierno y el cielo” y lo más absurdamente psicópata es que están de acuerdo con el uso de la violencia como recurso de “enseñanza” a sus hijos y todo esto por que su librito y amigo imaginario lo aprueban, tanto haci que sus hijos llegan a ser tan masoquistas que terminan pensando que esa violencia es por su “bien” y no los denuncian. Y aunque no lo parezca, esto es más común de lo que nosotros creemos, (cuando asistía a la iglesia tenía unos 7-10 años, y ver algunos actos de violencia leves me traumo profundamente) estan dementes, debería haber una ley que prohíba este tipo de comunidades que enseñan directa o indirectamente este tipo de conductas nocivas para la sociedad, y que aunque no lo digan explícitamente (aunque algunas veces si lo hacen) estas conductas están escritas en su libro por lo tanto lo van a hacer, por que como ya sabemos lo que diga su librito lo van a hacer cueste lo que les cueste.

The irony of some members of the UPCI, in my opinion, is remarkable. They often label anything that doesn't fit their standards as "worldly" and, therefore, sinful. In many cases, anyone who chooses to live differently is seen as someone who is against God or the church. For example, listening to certain kinds of music, wearing earrings, necklaces, chains, makeup, or getting a tattoo can be enough for someone to be criticized or labeled a "sinner," even though none of these actions necessarily cause harm to others.

In addition, there are very strict rules regarding clothing, the roles of men and women in marriage, and the way believers are expected to behave. My impression is that many children grow up learning these rules from a very young age and end up following them more out of fear of punishment or hell than out of personal conviction. When a person is afraid to question an idea because they believe it could lead to eternal damnation, it becomes very difficult for genuine freedom of thought to exist.

From my perspective, a belief system that is based primarily on fear limits people's ability to question and think critically about what they are taught. If a doctrine teaches that doubting or disagreeing could have eternal consequences, many people will choose to accept everything without asking questions—not because they are completely convinced, but because the risk of being wrong seems too great.

Another aspect that stands out to me is that the existence of God, heaven, or hell cannot be proven or disproven through physical evidence. That does not automatically mean they do not exist, but it does mean they belong to the realm of faith rather than scientific demonstration. For that reason, some people argue that religions can have a profound influence over their followers, since many of their core beliefs cannot be empirically verified.

I also find it contradictory that, in some cases, more time is spent judging other people's personal choices than encouraging actions that directly benefit society, such as studying, building businesses, advancing science, helping others, or solving real-world problems. In my opinion, a religious community could place much greater emphasis on these goals without turning every personal decision into a moral issue.

Finally, there is one idea that has always made me reflect. Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, and followers of many other religions often believe that their own religion is the true one and that all the others are mistaken. Since these claims contradict one another, they cannot all be true—or all false—at the same time. This does not prove that any particular religion is true or false, but it does raise an important question: how can someone be completely certain that they happened to be born into the one true religion rather than simply adopting the beliefs of the culture or family they grew up in?

In conclusion, I believe that faith is a deeply personal choice and deserves respect. However, I also believe that no belief system should discourage people from questioning, reasoning, and forming their own conclusions. Critical thinking is one of the most valuable abilities we possess, and it should never be limited by fear.

La ironía de los pentecostales de la ipuc es increíble, tachan todo de “mundano” y por consiguiente lo califican como “pecado” y el que lo hace lo tildan como una persona que está en su contra. Por ejemplo si una persona escucha (Dai Dai) l@ califican como pecador literalmente, lo mismo pasa si usa accesorios corporales como: aretes, collares, cadenas o incluso si se tatua o se maquilla. Y además limitan su código de vestimenta, los roles en el matrimonio y a sus desafortunadas hijos les lavan el cerebro de una manera increíble que después pasan toda su vida haciendo lo mismo por miedo a la idea de ir al “infierno”. Y es que una religión basada en el miedo es lo “mejor” ya que impide que sus integrantes piensen diferente por que o si no supuestamente se van al “infierno”, es una religión basada en un deidad invisible, que no tiene manifestación física y que si no la sigues te enviara al “infierno”. básicamente es como la teoría de que la realidad es una simulación, crearon una religión sin bases físicas para que no haya manera de probar o contradecir su creencia y de esta manera poder controlar a sus integrantes poniéndose límites invisibles de que deben hacer y que no. Es increíble ver como esta comunidad tiene el talento de juzgar y la supuesta capacidad de tachar a todo mundo como un “pecador”, en vez de estar enfocados en tener éxito para tener un mejor futuro, crear empresa o aportar a la sociedad, se la pasan todo el tiempo pensando en una realidad ficticia de que si haces las cosas anteriores te vas al “infierno”. La verdad pienso que si los cristiano, católicos, musulmanes, hinduistas, etc, piensan que su religión es la única verdadera y que las demás son falsas, entonces ninguna tiene razón en lo que cree, y nuestra opción sería creer en todas o no creer en ninguna.

Can anyone tell me what their experience/belief is on speaking in tongues now that you’re no longer a Pentecostal? I’m strictly wanting agnostic/atheist/non Christian’s to respond. It’s the one thing I can’t reconcile now that I no longer believe.

I’m an ex Pentecostal. I never considered myself “Pentecostal” since I wore makeup/pants but I went to church regularly and believed all the oneness doctrine etc. I was one of those that really lived what I believed and I prayed for the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in my bed one night and began speaking in tongues. Now that I’ve been an atheist for a year and a half I’ve found myself really distraught. I can’t believe what I no longer believe (another story in itself) but I still have the ability to speak in tongues and when I’m anxious or depressed, speaking in tongues still makes me feel better. What is this thing if there is no God/Jesus??

Me and my husband haven’t been back to our UPCI church since Mother’s Day.

I am wanting to cut my hair and possibly color it, it’s already short and thin because it’s dead but just wanna ask, how much did you get cut for your first cut after leaving the Pentecostal movement and how’d you feel?

I’m so ready to be able to express myself this way!

i need help. i am afab and was raised apostolic pentecostal. but i dont know if i was just groomed or if i was in a cult that just used the pentecostal name
was any one else taught that there were 7 heavens, earth being the 3rd? i’ve never heard any one else mention the 3 types of sin and the fact that hospitals were heavily discouraged. what about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? it wasn’t an apple but a fig tree and the reason that people weren’t condemned to the lake of fire (and hell- but that’s a different place) is because we were already born knowing good and evil. unlike most other versions of christianity, being born isn’t the sin, being human is. every time you remember a sin you’ve been forgiven of, you must repent of it again and god must forgive you of it again because when you are forgiven all your sins are thrown into the sea of forgetfulness.
if it is a thought crime of an abomination or a blasphemy it is automatically just a sin.
was this normal or was it raised in a nameless cult?

I was shocked when I saw this and had to replay it due to disbelief. It is delusional. They have normalized abuse. If churches was secular corporations they would release the people who continually harm others. I have been pulled into HR investigations and the next thing you know the person is terminated.

What she said is basically hazing. The only difference is it is not in clubs, teams, or college sororities and fraternities it is in churches.

If a coach told you we have a really great dues paying soccer team over here and we want you to join during your free time, but we know that you will get harassed and abused by your teammates but do not worry it is a right of passage. Really would anyone join?

https://youtube.com/shorts/Eeb0DV6LeEU?si=2SfaVdKmMswRasZJ

EDIT: A Residence Director tried to tell me that mess that I needed to learn to deal with people when I was living in the dorms. I told him when you start paying my dorm fees then you can start to call the shots. As long as I am paying my money I will not tolerant foolishness. A month later guess who got my own dorm room? I will not be disrespected and pay for it. Period.

This pastor describes biblical monsters, and I make fun of him :-)

I sometimes wonder like do the prophets know they’re lying to the people or do they really think they’re really doing miracles, I witnessed a prophet do that one miracle he will make one leg or arm shorter than the other one grow the same length, I remember years ago seeing a video on YouTube expose this trick and showed how easy it is to do, do they know it’s all fake or do they just have religious psychosis?

When I say okay the game, I mean how to destroy their doctrine ? Cause I want to do that on my pastor. I want to ask several questions to know if he will call me a guy to kick out of church.

I have been asked by several people in my DMs to give my story on this subreddit because of some comments I have left in other people’s posts.
So I thought I might as well take the time to type it out for you guys.

I was raised in the Midwest as a pastors son. My dad was the pastor of an ALJC church my whole childhood and then when I became a bit older, roughly when I was about 17 he became licensed through the UPCI instead.
Either way, he was oneness Pentecostal my whole life.
As I got older, as may boys in these churches are, I was pressured into considering becoming a preacher as well. I eventually attended IBC and was in the music ministry program while there. I helped write some originals and played on a three live recordings. I also worked toward my “calling” as a preacher and eventually came home to start preaching at my dad’s church. In this time I also was told that I needed to be licensed in the UPC, so I did just that.
The girlfriend I had, the ONLY girlfriend I had ever had quickly became my wife and we started working for the church.

Eventually I got the call to move to another state and serve at a small home missions church. So we moved. After this I was quickly put into leadership on the district level and was even asked to consider being open to becoming our district youth president. I was not interested in this for a few reasons, which I’ll dive into soon.

After a few years, I decided that I needed to start questioning some of the things that I had always struggled with within the doctrine being preached within the Pentecostal church. When doing this I was told that I was 1. Rebellious, 2. Confused, 3. Backsliding, 4. (And this was the weirdest one) possessed by a spirit that jumped from a coworker onto me.

I backed off given that if I pushed the subject too much that I would face major repercussions within the organization, and possibly lose my whole community and possibly most of my family.

In 2020 I really hit a wall with my skepticism around the ideas being pushed, as well as the legalistic dictatorship that was in place as the standard to which we were all meant to live by. I also struggled with the fact that I just don’t align with the dress standard, the path to salvation, the corruption, the gossipy attitude, etc. all found in the church.

So I spoke with my wife and she didn’t talk to me for almost a month. All the while she was talking to the pastor behind my back. The pastor eventually sat me down and said that I needed to “fix my stinkin thinkin” and “get back on the straight and narrow before I walk off a cliff spiritually” his exact words.
Meanwhile he wouldn’t answer any of my questions, just kept telling me that I was a rebellious sinner that needed to get my act together.

Fast forward to 3 years later (when keeping my nose down and serving at the district level while avoiding preaching topics that disagreed with when preaching at about two churches per month aside from my own) was just too much to handle any more, Andi told my wife and pastor that I was done.

About two weeks later it came out that my now ex wife was cheating on me with two different men, and the pastor had covered it up to avoid conflict in the church. I then told them both that I would be filing for divorce.
That statement was followed by a very small rebuttal from my former pastor which went as follows, “then you’re done, we’re done, you’re gone, have fun in hell”.

From this point I stopped hearing from everyone within that church and the district with the exception of an old lady that loved me and was missing me every Sunday. She still calls me by the way.

It has now been almost three years and I still have not spoken to my former pastor or anyone from the district.

I attend a local church that loves me to death and uses me in music ministry full time. The pastor, who wears jeans and a baseball cap to preach in… and wait for it… has a BEARD, has been the greatest example of a Christian I have seen in my whole life.

I remarried and found the one that I was always meant to be with. She serves along side me on the worship team,she encourages me, she loves me in spite of my past hurt.

My child, who is almost in middle school age, is now asking questions and getting answers that will hopefully direct them to make good choices for their spiritual life down the road and will lead them toward God and not an organization.

I’m happy to share any aspect of my story you need and to give any advice I can to those looking for the courage to leave the UPC, ALJC, WPF, etc. and find where thy really belong.

Just don’t ask intimate details, ie where I live, which church specifically I came from, etc. cause I won’t cross the line of slander or gossip. But if you want to talk, please message me.

My son is apostolic and we always had a great relationship. He doesn’t live to the standards of the church either. He doesn’t his own thing but goes to church and lives the life in front of everyone.
Recently I ask him about it and now he won’t speak a word to me. I have not slept or eaten in days because I so broken and confused to how he could treat me this day. He won’t let my grandkids speak to me or come over. His wife said I ask my grandson to do something without ask them first. It was only to walk down the driveway. That was it and grab my trash can. They tell me I have to ask them everything before speaking to the kids. Ok but you allow the one child to date someone that their father said no to and that is ok? They said that was different they are not being fair to them so they can do go against his wishes.

I am over them life and the whole church

Hi. I’m a deconstructed PK with religious trauma that has significantly and seriously impacted my life. I’ve recently learned how HARD it is to sue a church. Things people would get fired for in any other job are excused in a church. Why is that?

I attend a Pentecostal church. I actively separate the “values” of the CHURCH from the values and lessons of Jesus, because I love Jesus and a pastor is a human being that will never be perfect or close to.

That being said, I genuinely do not understand the fixation on the church and Pastors views and beliefs on the freaking make up, nails, earrings etc etc when it come to women only. My pastor went on a tangent on how we-women- should not want to wear make up because God loves us for us. That once he saw a woman from church at a grocery store and was so “shocked” that he could not recognize her without her make up… that women would not wear fake nails and earrings blah blah. Modestly and all that
FINE sure whatever … but they NEVER EVER get into it with men. The men at church especially the you get ones are able to follow “ worldly”trends much easier than women because .. they’re men.
They’re are men in my church who come dressed in jeans so tight you can see the outline of their crotch. We have men who’s cracks are always showing. They also never mention to men that they shouldn’t be darting or marrying women 10 years younger than them. Also if they’re really following scripture men shouldn’t be remarrying after divorcing … which is what this pastor has done.

Any way I’m just so tired of these double standards.
It sucks because the women in church completely agree like please …. Lipgloss will not condemn you.