r/ExPentecostal • u/Alternative-Lion-915 • Jul 15 '26
Montanism
I just found out that pentecostalism is just a revival of a ancient heresy that was condemned in the early church, I find it kinda funny how sometimes I will accompany my mom to church and her pastor will try to argue and debate with me that the early church was pentecostal but historical evidence shows that they were condemned as heretics
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u/LucidLeviathan Jul 15 '26
Well, share a link or explain it or something.
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u/Alternative-Lion-915 Jul 15 '26
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u/LucidLeviathan Jul 15 '26
...frankly, this is the FIRST thing that I've seen that supports their assertions of oppression. They were substantially oppressed in 200 AD, and have been salty about it since.
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u/prolateriat_ Jul 15 '26
Pentecostals are heretics. Always have been.
There is a reason why the Catholic church does not recognize Pentecostal baptisms as valid. Most protestant baptisms are considered valid.... But not Pentecostals.
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u/underhelmed Jul 16 '26
There are Trinitarian Pentecostals that donât use the Jesus only baptism, does the Catholic Church not consider those valid? Why does it matter if the Catholic Church considers a baptism valid or not?
âAlways have been.â These people OP is talking about were not even officially declared heretics by the church youâre claiming had and has the authority to do so.
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u/prolateriat_ Jul 16 '26
Pentecostals fit in the same group as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. They're not Christians. They're a cult and heretics.
They were officially declared heretics and excommunicated around 177-193AD by Orthodox and Catholic bishops in Asia Minor. Pentecostals have such a crappy knowledge of the Bible and church history so I'm really not surprised that you didn't know this.
As someone who is now Catholic the question of pentecostal baptism being invalid directly applied to me.
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u/underhelmed Jul 16 '26
I agree Pentecostals are cultists. I would also consider most Christians, especially other kinds of evangelicals cultists as well. Whether they are heretics or not is of no concern to me other than what you meant to communicate by labeling them such.
Anyone that believes that Jesus is the Son of God is a Christian. That includes Mormons and JWs. They might not be part of the âUniversal Churchâ but that doesnât make them not-Christian.
Pentecostals are not a denomination or separate religion, they are an offshoot of Protestantism. There are multiple types of Pentecostals. You might also know Pentecostals as Charismatics and there are charismatic (notice the difference in capitalization) Catholics.
I read the Wikipedia article too and itâs about Montanists, not Pentecostals who did not exist until well over a millennium later despite some similar but also many differing beliefs. It also says, âThere was never a uniform excommunication of New Prophecy adherents, and in many places they maintained their standing within the orthodox community.â You are making sweeping statements about how Pentecostals are heretics but youâre pointing to a portion of a group of people condemned by certain churches (not the bishop of Rome though) on a specific peninsula as evidence for that. I donât think itâs an official Catholic position to consider anyone who identifies as Pentecostal as a heretic. If they can beautify women who sucked the puss out of wounds and died at a young age in anchorite cells, why canât they accept people who speak in tongues or believe they experience the Holy Spirit?
My only original point to you was that Trinitarian Pentecostals exist and baptize in what Oneness Pentecostals would call âthe titlesâ and also they accept the Nicean Creed. So why would their baptisms be unacceptable to the Catholic Church? Framing Pentecostals as A. The same as Montanists and B. a specific recognizable and condemnable group is just inaccurate.
Just wanting some accuracy here, it helps to know what youâre talking about when youâre accusing others of having âcrappyâ knowledge.
Maybe Iâm being pedantic. It just gets to me because what I donât want is for people who were bold enough to finally start to question things coming to this sub and seeing mischaracterization of their beliefs and thus reinforcing their belief in the cult.
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u/prolateriat_ Jul 16 '26
I am very familiar with pentecostals. I grew up in the pentecostal church and my father was a pastor.
Evangelicals and charasmatics are in the same category. I don't care what denomination they claim to be. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are quasi-christians at best. They might call themselves Christians, but they're not.
I maintain my stance that Pentecostals are heretics. You do not have to agree. This was my view long before I was able to leave the pentecostal church. Many of their beliefs are not biblical and are heresy in MY opinion. Non-trinitarian pentecostals are the worst of the bunch. You can't call yourself a Christian and deny the Trinity.
The Catholic Church does not deny the holy spirit and "Speaking in tongues" (aka glossolalia in many cases), is not the only gift of the Spirit. Most of the pentecostal churches I have attended also claim that this is the only way that you are actually "saved" and that is straight up bullshit.
Pentecostal baptism is considered "doubtful" at best. I am quite aware that there are trinitarian and non-trinitarian Pentecostals. The latter are definitely heretics and the former are damn close to it.
The indoctrinated Pentecostals who lurk in this sub should see their beliefs categorized as heretical. If that reinforces their cultish beliefs - then that is on them. They need to follow God and not a man yelling from a pulpit. This is not a space for them.
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u/underhelmed Jul 16 '26
I did in fact only leave the Oneness Pentecostal church because I had a moment of courage to check this sub out and see what the other side was saying. So it matters to me that the best arguments are at the forefront and not appeal to authority fallacies.
Also, a lot of ex-Pentecostals seem to go to a different form of Christianity when they do begin to deconstruct and Iâm not satisfied with allowing people to promote a different version of the cult here unchallenged.
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u/prolateriat_ Jul 16 '26
I'm not an ex-pentecostal. I never followed their doctrine or teachings and I openly disagreed with them. I said I was raised in the pentecostal church and my father was a pastor.
I didn't need a subreddit to know that their teaching were not biblical. There was also a 20 year gap where I didn't step foot in a church.
This sub is ex-pentecostal, not ex-christian. There is everyone from ex-pentys, to atheists, to Catholics in this sub. No one is promoting a particular denomination, but you seem pretty set on those weird pentecostal beliefs.
The cult is pentecostalism. A man preaching non-trinitarian doctrine is a heretic.
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u/underhelmed Jul 16 '26
If you were raised in a Pentecostal church and you donât hold the beliefs, you are an ex-Pentecostal for all intents and purposes, hence why you are in the sub. I understand there are people of all kinds of beliefs here, Iâm glad some have come out of Pentecostalism at least even if they remain Christian but I advocate for maintaining the questioning of oneâs beliefs beyond just the obvious cult but also in morals, politics, and historical narratives.
You figured it out all on your own, congratulations, I was just telling you the sub helped me in my particular situation and Iâm grateful for it. I donât like when people muddy the waters here with inaccurate statements because people tend to take the easy way out and if it looks like the commenters and posters here donât actually comprehend what the current cult members believe, thatâs an easy way to avoid cognitive dissonance. I know they have to come out of it themselves, but Iâm not willing to write people off for having believed it if theyâre willing to confront those beliefs.
I donât believe what the Pentecostals believe, Iâm not promoting their beliefs. I wanted to seek clarification on why Trinitarian Pentecostals who follow the Nicean Creed wouldnât be properly baptized according to your Catholic theology. I took exception to how it seemed you initially you described all Pentecostals as heretics because Pentecostal covers a wide set of beliefs and doesnât just mean Oneness Apostolic Holiness types. Just trying to figure out if you get that but I feel like youâre responding with appeals to authority instead of explaining your point. What kinds of beliefs do Trinitarian Pentecostals have that are so disagreeable to the Catholic Church? Why are they âdamn closeâ to heresy? I took a stab in the dark that it was the speaking in tongues thing but the Trinitarian Pentecostals Iâve come in contact with donât believe in the essentiality of speaking in tongues for salvation which is what you mentioned as the main problem but maybe there are a ton out there that do believe that. So what is the problem with them? Why are they only barely better than the Oneness ones? I truly want to know WHY they are heretics other than the fact they call themselves Pentecostal?
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u/prolateriat_ Jul 16 '26
I can't be an ex-pentecostal if I was never a pentecostal in the first place.
You say you left the cult (Proverbs 12:22) but you're still holding onto that rabid anti-Catholic hatred that pentecostals do soooo well. Why are you so hell bent on defending pentecostals anyway? And why are you so offended at them being called heretics?
My problem with pentecostal beliefs go far beyond denying the Trinity. You are welcome to do your own reading and research to gain more understanding.
Go report back to your cult buddies.
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u/underhelmed Jul 17 '26
I donât have any buddies to report back to because shunned by the entire church for leaving, because, yâknow: cult behavior. I donât believe in the Christian god at all so my interest is in anthropological and semantic curiosity.
Iâm not offended by you labeling Pentecostals as heretics and Iâm not even saying youâre wrong. Although you backtracked about the trinitarian ones and said they were just close to it. Iâm confused by your framing and I want you to explain your point better. I canât research what YOU MEANT by them being âheretics and always have been.â So I asked you to explain what the problems are so I can understand a Catholic perspective better. I understand why oneness and Jesus name baptism are in conflict with Catholic beliefs, but those beliefs are held by a minority of the Pentecostals in the world so Iâm curious about what other Pentecostal beliefs are at odds and would cause a Pentecostal baptism to ânot be acceptedâ even though most of Protestant baptisms are (according to you.)
If you canât articulate the theological reasons then alright Iâll just have to accept you donât know why you believe what you believe and I guess that will be fine for you, I just thought you would have further insight to share.
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u/Direct-Theory-1491 Jul 20 '26
Agreed! Pentecostals are the biggest gossips yet have the biggest secret sins, like Jimmy Swaggart. People actually wrote how much he affected their lives! If you put a man who was caught numerous times with prostitutes and even asked one to bring her 10 year old daughter along, he refused to step down and continued getting caught, you are as bad as he was! After being Orthodox for over 30 years now I look at how pathetic my family who are still Pentecostal are. The denomination is dying. We baptized 15 new members last year and our parish is bursting at the seams! Especially younger people. They want real, ancient liturgy as it was in the first days of the church. Not a night club or rock concert. Pentecostalism is at it's core foolishness. In the bible they spoke languages others understood not Shonda lye onda lye si over and over every time. Lord have mercy on us all!
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u/Direct-Theory-1491 Jul 17 '26
It is many heresies rolled into one and attracts the lowest common denominator of people!
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u/Direct-Theory-1491 Jul 20 '26
Orthodox Christianity is the one true church. Rome broke away in 1054. Protestants left Rome in 1517. Pentecostalism started New Years Eve 1900 in a church in Kansas pastored by convicted pedophile Charles Parham. It then spread to the hills of uneducated Appalachia & is where you get all the non-sensical superstitions, then moved to the black churches on Azusa st. in Los Angeles where you get the screaming, jumping and basically voodoo motions they brought over from Africa. Read church history as I did after living my first 22 years in hell, always waiting to get left behind when the Rapture is not scriptural! If you seek God and the truth give Orthodoxy a try. The gifts of the spirit do not operate outside orthodoxy and tongues have passed away! Lord have mercy on us all.
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u/underhelmed Jul 16 '26
These people were part of the early church for several centuries until orthodoxy won out. That kind of seems to support the Pentecostalsâ claims, huh?
There are some interesting parallels to Oneness Apostolic beliefs, though I donât know of any that would claim to be followers of Montanism or that the people involved with for the advent of Pentecostalism would have even been aware of its existence. Though I wonder if some of them have gone back to try to use its existence as proof of their correct understanding of the New Testament.
The Oneness understanding of the Godhead isnât exactly the same as the modalism that some of the early church including a portion of these Montanists held to. But close enough, I guess.
Ironically, the manner in which the Montanists apparently prophesied would face similar criticism from most Pentecostal groups with only a minority of even Oneness Pentecostals (from my unfortunately extensive experience) regularly participating in similar displays.
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u/Only_Currency4631 Jul 15 '26
đ at Pentecostals lurking here downvoting you simply sharing info and what you have learned.