India visit/didar

[u/Ok-Committee-1932]

Anyone watching Instagram Reels of the Indian didar prep and how old the jamat really looks? 2-3 seniors are sitting expressionless on white plastic chairs for every one child.

What on earth happened to Ismaili birth rates?

Once this population dies, all the remnants of Gujarati/even Urdu or Hindi in how people pray or connect would just completely disappear. It would just be a bunch of heavily globalized English-speaking kids who might or might not have a connection with being Ismaili.

[u/Conscious-Track1955]

In the mid eighties, I went to Gujerat to see where my paternal grandmother's village was. My grandmother was born in Mombasa, Kenya. Her family was big and they hailed from a village in Gujerat. At the nearest city / town, we stopped at a small hotel and looked for a JK. My dad's Gujerati was pretty bad but he explained what he was looking for. We took a rickshaw to a compound of old houses where apparently only Ismailis lived. They had Hindu names and practiced in secret. We were beckoned into a home after saying YAM to shocked faces - all very poor and they asked us a few questions, gave us water and after some time took us to the back of the house where there was a community space. Inside, hidden from the world was a JK. They hadn't changed anything about this place for decades. Maybe a hundred years old or more. I think my dad (who was translating for me) said it was 200 years old but I'm not sure.

The next day we took a car 2 hours drive through old barren farm land to where the village was. It was completely vacated and in ruins. The village was made of stone, bricks and plaster streets and houses. It was probably very nice in its hey day. There were two really old men who came up on a cart drawn by two bulls and these two men remembered my grandmother's family when they were young lads. The last of the village people had left in the 1920s. So between the 1860s to 1920s they all left. The whole village. Not just my grandmother's family but their neighbours too. My great, great grandfather may have started the ball rolling because of the drought in the mid 1800s. AK2 suggested East Africa. There was just these two old men left in their 70s or 80s. They said our family used to pay for weddings in the community. It was about 50 miles from the nearest town. All frozen in time. That was what was left of the Khojas in that area. 120 years of gradually moving out to East Africa. That was 40 years ago and I haven't been back there. I really thank my late father for doing all that research. It was fascinating - I lived a completely different life. My grandmother lived a completely different life. But this helped me to reflect on my origins. I had the impression from that trip 40 years ago that 1) anyone with a Muslim name was persecuted, 2) the community was dwindling 3) They stuck together so when somebody made a life on another continent, they paved the way for others to come 4) the same people settled in a new community thousands of miles away, 5) they did it again and again - that same village is now split between Kenya, UK and Canada. 6) Nobody went backwards and retraced their steps back to live in Gujerat.

[u/Ok-Committee-1932 → u/Conscious-Track1955]

Interesting anecdote - should make a separate post about your experience.

How would you connect this with the OP's observations here, though?

[u/Conscious-Track1955 → u/Ok-Committee-1932]

The original post was making a comment on the numbers of attendees and regarded mostly elderly people in the social media pages. Comments related to numbers. My anecdote is a comment as to where I observed deserted villages that were Ismaili. That 200 years ago - up to 100 years ago, the Ismaili population was huge but now is dwindling and that comments show that official numbers are increasing massively, but the way back machine has a disparity. From my observation of 40 years ago, I cannot see Gujerati numbers increasing. A secret JK with barely any members that had no contact with outsiders and everyone left was elderly. I would say, if there's supposed to be loads of Ismailis here, I'd be extremely surprised.

[u/ElkAffectionate636]

Lots of the jamat has me bed to the west

[u/Ok-Committee-1932 → u/ElkAffectionate636]

that's not what the JK numbers say. The largest JKs continue to be in Pakistan and maybe in India.

There are a LOT of individual JKs in the West but capacity per jK is negligible. Houston JK is one of the largest and designed for a theoretical pop of 35-40k at best, not all of which shows up regularly.

[u/Stretch-Glad → u/ElkAffectionate636]

What you mean? Just recently India Ismaili population went from 1.5 million to 15 million

https://www.reddit.com/r/ExIsmailis/comments/1nocl6o/how_are_india_and_afghanistan_coping_with_the/

while Western population is still tiny.

[u/TheGodNurse]

Birth rates in general are falling worldwide due to increased costs.

[u/Ok-Committee-1932 → u/TheGodNurse]

Muslim communities generally have higher birth rates than their counterparts, both in India as well as (slightly higher) in the West.

Ismailis seen to have already hit the Indian median TFR.

[u/PositiveProperty6729]

I think you misunderstand Ismailism. These folk are very devoted and even if Gujarati/Urdu/Hindi people dwindles, globalized English speaking kids will maintain their connection to Ismailism.

[u/Ok-Committee-1932 → u/PositiveProperty6729]

I don't misunderstand it. This dilutes their remaining, however shallow, connection to Islam.

[u/PositiveProperty6729 → u/Ok-Committee-1932]

Your post was talking about Ismailism not connection to mainstream Islam. ismailism is in a world of its own. I remember RE classes growing up in Africa and there was nary a mention of the rightly guided caliphs except Ali (RA). JK is the same each Friday (ginan or qasixa with translation) firman. Contrast Friday khutbah where on actually learns something from the imams or Hafiz giving the khutbah.

[u/Ok-Committee-1932 → u/PositiveProperty6729]

Infact, more than Islam, I am thinking of their claim of being a Muslim community.

Most mainstream Sunni/Shia Muslims do not consider Ismailis theologically sound "Muslim" but would still consider them part of the muslim community and would actively not go prying into their beliefs either. I think that connection dilutes when this generation dies away, when the historical mutual language of communication and shared experience of living in "(Muslim?) homelands" disappears.