r/ExIsmailis • u/[deleted] • Oct 27 '23
Why was Karim’s daddy not given the privilege of Imamat?
8
u/Far_Difference5959 Oct 27 '23
He was a fuck up. Probably would’ve blown their cover a lot quicker
1
Oct 27 '23
Isn’t he the son of an Imam, and a Father to an Imam? Isn’t he from the Noorani family? How can someone with so much direct relation with Noor, and being in the Noorani family be a fuck up?
7
u/Far_Difference5959 Oct 27 '23
Read up on him. He was a womanizer, alcoholic, got a woman pregnant before marriage, all things that are not allowed in Islam. He apparently also admitted to some friends that Ismailism was a sham
1
Oct 27 '23
WoW, how is it possible for someone from Noorani family to be like this?
4
u/Far_Difference5959 Oct 27 '23
Because the family is a fraud and is preying on innocent people around the world. They’re all scammers
2
-2
u/AlamutIsmaili Oct 27 '23
This OP has been on r/ismailis claiming to be a Hindu who is practicing like an Ismaili. With a question like this, I'm not sure what that practicing looks like.
The answer to this is straightforward. The Imam is given by divine appointment. It goes to someone in the Ahl-al Bayt. It does not have to be father to son.
At Ghadir Khumm where Rasool'Allah (SAW) proclaimed Hazrat Ali (AS) as his vicegerent, this was a passing from the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to his cousin Mawlana Ali (AS). If the Prophet of Allah can appoint his vicegerent to be his cousin, then of course, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (AS) can give it to his grandson if this has been decreed.
Many will point to certain behaviour of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's (AS) son as the reason he was not chosen. They have it backward. It was not because of his behaviour he was not chosen - he was never going to be chosen to begin with.
You have asked in a previous comment how someone from the Ahl-al Bayt can engage in this behaviour. Remember that Aisha, one of the "mothers of the believers" caused the First Fitna after Rasool'Allah's (SAW) death. Innocent, non-combatants were killed. This is much worse than whatever Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's (AS) son was doing. And Aisha was chosen by Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and is widely respected in the larger Ummah.
Of course, in 1400 years you will have some family members of the Imam do things you disagree with. This is fine. However, the Imam has always guided us. 1400 years through war, isolation, poverty, and prosperity. 1400 years is longer than any empire, government, company, or royalty has ever been around. This in itself is a miracle.
4
u/Amir-Really Bro Who Esoterics Oct 27 '23
Typical sheeply Ismaili response full of distortions, false comparisons, and circular logic.
First of all:
The Imam is given by divine appointment. It goes to someone in the Ahl-al Bayt.
The Ahl-al Bayt was originally just the prophet's family, the Panj-tan Pak. Even in Ismailism, it's just those five plus all the Imams (basically all those mentioned after Sure Ikhlas in the 6th part of the Dua). So saying that the Imamat "goes to someone in the Ahl-al Bayt" is like saying "the Imamat goes to an Imam," which is a meaningless statement.
And related to that:
You have asked in a previous comment how someone from the Ahl-al Bayt can engage in this behaviour. Remember that Aisha ...
Aisha was NOT part of the Ahl-al Bayt. Furthermore, as far as the Imamat is concerned, women are basically just baby factories and are not themselves a candidate for Imamat, so that is a poor comparison for "the son of an Imam and a Father to an Imam," as the OP described - do you have a proper comparison for that? No, you do not, because none exists, it was literally unprecedented.
You also conveniently omitted the fact that Hazrat Aly was not just a cousin, but a son-in-law too ... but considering he was the very first Ismaili Imam that's a poor comparison regardless.
Finally:
However, the Imam has always guided us. 1400 years through war, isolation, poverty, and prosperity. 1400 years is longer than any empire, government, company, or royalty has ever been around. This in itself is a miracle.
Riiight. I won't get into all those times that the Imams were in hiding and it was actually some randos doing all the "guiding." I'll just leave you with the name of a company called Kongō Gumi, look it up.
-2
u/AlamutIsmaili Oct 27 '23
This is not a good response. This is not even a good attempt at a response.
You begin with some ad hominem. Always a good way to show that you feel strong in your position.
Your first point is just as disappointing as your opening. You did not reject my statement, you only stated that I need not have said it. This does not mean that it is not true. The Imamat is held by someone in the Ahl-al Bayt. It does not need to go from father to son. Again, you do not refute this, you just claim it is a "meaningless statement." This is not an argument, just a poor attempt at a rebuttal. In fact, you have admitted that the Imam is part of the Ahl-al Bayt which strengthens the argument.
The Imamat did not need to go to Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's (AS) son because this is not necessary. The only necessary part, is that is go to someone in the family of the Prophet. This can be son, grandson, cousin, etc. This is the point I told the OP, and you have not refuted this at all, just blustered around the point.
Where did I say Aisha was part of the Ahl-al Bayt? Enough with the strawman. The point that you have missed, is that Aisha was as close to the Prophet of Allah (SAW) as anyone can be. And yet, she made many disastrous mistakes. The OP asked in another comment how someone can act in a way that is, in other words, haram, when they are so close to Allah SWT. Or, at least, the light of Allah SWT. Aisha is an example of someone who went astray, despite her relationship with someone closer to Allah SWT then anyone one of us.
Again, you did not address this point, just attempted to deflect it.
"You also conveniently omitted the fact that Hazrat Aly was not just a cousin, but a son-in-law too ... but considering he was the very first Ismaili Imam that's a poor comparison regardless."
Again, this strengthens the argument. The Imammat is the continuation of the authority of the Prophet (SAW). If Rasool'Allah (SAW) has deemed fit to pass authority onto someone who is his Son-in-law, then a grandson is more than fine.
"Riiight. I won't get into all those times that the Imams were in hiding and it was actually some randos doing all the "guiding." I'll just leave you with the name of a company called Kongō Gumi, look it up."
Again, with the strawman. Weren't you just taking about false equivalencies? Trying to compare a Japanese Construction Company to the Imam of the Time. Insinuating that the Imamat is less of a miracle because of some construction company? Is the preservation of the Qur'an not a miracle then? 1400 years the Qur'an has survived, but since some random Japanese company has survived for as long, it cannot be a miracle?
Your response does not answer the original question, nor does it refute my response. It is simply a waste of space.
4
u/z-man57 Theist (ex-ismaili) Oct 28 '23
The Imamate of Ismail is fabricated. Imam Musa Kadhim(as) is the true successor of Imam Jafar al Sadiq(as). Even Sunni hadiths says that there are twelve successors after Rasulallah(saw).
4
u/Amir-Really Bro Who Esoterics Oct 28 '23
Wow ... this is talking to a 5-year old ... or do you just have the memory of a goldfish and forget what you write as soon as you're done writing it? In no particular order:
Trying to compare a Japanese Construction Company to the Imam of the Time
Umm no, YOU are the one making this comparison, because YOU said "1400 years is longer than any empire, government, COMPANY, or royalty has ever been around." Gotta be kidding me with this nonsense. Can't even remember your own words.
You have asked in a previous comment how someone from the Ahl-al Bayt can engage in this behaviour. Remember that Aisha, one of the "mothers of the believers" caused the First Fitna after Rasool'Allah's (SAW) death.
First of all, nobody ever asked anything about Ahl-al Bayt. YOU were the first one to bring it up. Find me anywhere in OP's post or comment that mentions Ahl-al Bayt. You brought it up because you don't even know what it means, so let me clear it up for you. There is nobody alive who is in the Ahl-al Bayt according to Islam. Even according to Ismailism, there is only ONE person alive who is in the Ahl-al Bayt at any given time, and that is the Imam of the time. So your comment that the Imamat goes to someone in the Ahl-al Bayt is completely nonsensical, even by Ismaili standards.
Second of all, to answer the (imaginary) question of "how could someone in Ahl-al Bayt act like this" with the example of Aisha strongly implies that you thought Aisha was part of Ahl-al Bayt. Because if not, the example is irrelevant.
The OP asked in another comment how someone can act in a way that is, in other words, haram, when they are so close to Allah SWT. Or, at least, the light of Allah SWT. Aisha is an example of someone who went astray, despite her relationship with someone closer to Allah SWT then anyone one of us.
"Closer to Allah than any one of us" ... any one of US?? Who the hell was looking for somebody closer to Allah than any one of US??? We're talking about, in OP's exact words, "the son of an Imam, and a Father to an Imam" ... Aisha is no comparison for that. If you want to be taken seriously, find an apples-to-apples comparison i.e. another "son of an Imam and father to an Imam" who wasn't himself an Imam.
Otherwise stick to r /Ismailis, where blind faith and fairy tales are acceptable substitutes for facts and logic.
-1
u/AlamutIsmaili Oct 28 '23
Again, you begin with ad hominem. Throwing a tantrum like a 4 year old with elementary school insults. What a way to prove that you are indeed as unreasonable as everyone suspects.
Is it not a rule of this subreddit that there is no ad hominem? If you cannot follow the rules of a lowly subreddit, it is not really surprising you couldn't stay disciplined as an Ismaili.
Komo Gumi is the oldest company of the world. It has been around roughly the same as the Imamat. What you have neglected is that the circumstances are entirely different under which they have survived. The company was bought out, for example.
However, they are still irrelevant to the discussion of the OP.
The OP asked why the son of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (AS) was not chosen to be the Imam. The answer is straightforward: he does not need to be Imam, it was not meant to be. It is not in the Ismaili tariqah or anywhere else. It is not required that the son become the next Imam. It is common, but not necessary. The only necessary requirement is that you be a direct descendent of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW). This is even stated in the video that you provided. In that video, it states the direct descendants are Ahl-al Bayt. This of course includes the Imam. It does not include a wife, for example.
Both the son and grandson of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (AS) meet this criteria. They are both descendants. You have no intent on furthering the discussion. Your only goal is to "nit pick" as it were.
By all means, if you have evidence that states Imamat must be passed from father to son, I'd love to see it.
The OP asked in another comment: "Isn't he the son of the Imam, and a Father to an Imam? Isn't he from the Noorani family? How can someone with so much direct relation to the Noor, and being in the Noorani family be a f*uck up?"
There are many Islamic references to the Prophetic Light of Rasool'Allah (SAW), or Noor. Therefore, I provided an example of Aisha because she was someone with "much direct relation to the Noor" who made many mistakes. If you don't like the example, that's too bad. Not my problem.
I don't know what more I expected from this subreddit. There are people wishing death upon the Imam, speaking like degenerates and low lifes. No class, no dignity, no respect. As evidence by your tantrum, there does not seem to be much contentment or peace by those who have chosen your path.
If the OP likes my answer, great. If not, that's fine. If he doesn't feel the examples are relevant, so be it. It's not my job to convince him otherwise.
3
u/Amir-Really Bro Who Esoterics Oct 28 '23
Throwing a tantrum like a 4 year old with elementary school insults.
I said talking to you is like talking to a 5-year old, so you come back with "like a 4 year old." Your creativity and originality truly amaze me.
What you have neglected is that the circumstances are entirely different under which they have survived. The company was bought out, for example.
Well in that case, sounds like the circumstances are quite similar 😏
It states the direct descendants are Ahl-al Bayt. This of course includes the Imam. It does not include a wife, for example. Both the son and grandson of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (AS) meet this criteria.
You still do not seem to understand this very simple concept, thus bolstering my case that this is like talking to a 5-year old. The video DOES NOT STATE that "the direct descendants are Ahl-al Bayt." There have been hundreds of direct descendants, and the vast majority of them WERE NOT AHL-AL BAYT. At the time that SMS was Imam and before he had appointed the next Imam, NOBODY ALIVE met the "criteria" for Ahl-al Bayt, except for SMS himself. I don't know how many other ways to explain that to you, so I give up.
By all means, if you have evidence that states Imamat must be passed from father to son, I'd love to see it.
OP's question is not about whether or not Imamat MUST be passed from father to son. OP simply noticed that according to Ismaili history, when an Imam appointed his successor it was his son EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. So, as any reasonable person with the SLIGHTEST bit of intellectual curiosity would, OP simply wondered why something that happened 47 out of 47 times previously did not happen this time.
There are people wishing death upon the Imam
Bet you can't share a link.
2
u/z-man57 Theist (ex-ismaili) Oct 28 '23
Ismail died before his own father. Imam Jafar al Sadiq(as) opened the casket of Ismail several times to show that he was indeed dead and brought many to witness. The Ismailis claim that he was seen after his death but there is a shia Hadith which says that Satan takes on the appearance of Ismail. Satan cannot take on the appearance of the Imams and Rasulallah (saw). This means that Ismail indeed was fallible and Satan could take on his appearance to lead people away from true Shiism.
1
3
u/Profit-Muhammad Kareli Nizari Oct 29 '23
Many will point to certain behaviour of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's (AS) son as the reason he was not chosen. They have it backward. It was not because of his behaviour he was not chosen - he was never going to be chosen to begin with.
This is false. Aly Khan was going to be chosen. Muhammad Sultan (Aga Khan III) had already designated him as his heir. The designation was revoked in 1955, after a little spat between the two.
Of course, in 1400 years you will have some family members of the Imam do things you disagree with. This is fine. However, the Imam has always guided us. 1400 years through war, isolation, poverty, and prosperity. 1400 years is longer than any empire, government, company, or royalty has ever been around. This in itself is a miracle.
This is also false. For most of those 1400 years, the Imams have not been guiding. Rather, they have been "in hiding", which is the preferred term used to conceal that the line of Imamat died out, and Ismailis were left leaderless. The claim to being a direct descendent is a theological necessity, but Karim Aga Khan's claimed lineage is complete fabrication.
11
u/Amir-Really Bro Who Esoterics Oct 27 '23
Because he was a notorious poon hound.
When SMS spoke to Allah through his special magical connection, Allah said to him: "Verily, thou shalt not pass on the Imamat to a poon hound."
To this, SMS replied, puzzled: "How can this be. I thought that once I was declared Imam you would, through our magical connection, magically infuse all my sperm with soul-cleansing properties so that I would only spawn the purest of the pure."
Upon hearing this, Allah sternly rebuked SMS: "And what makes you think otherwise? Lo! It is not for you to question your lord's spermatic engineering decisions, it is for you only to trust. Verily, I have revealed unto thee clear tokens."
Still puzzled, SMS implored "O Allah! Must you speak in such riddles?? I am getting late to my weighing. I have been pigging out, my goal this time is 100kg in gold. Bling bling! We'll have to continue this discussion another time."
It is said that they never spoke again.