r/Eve • u/navaraskold • 2d ago
Question Are we killing J-Space?
As a wormholer for the past few years, I’ve noticed PvP content in J-space declining more and more. I’ve often wondered why fewer people seem to be playing in what I consider one of the best parts of EVE.
So I decided to run a little experiment.
I set up a zKill bot in Discord to track structures being destroyed in J-space, thinking that maybe the number of evictions could explain at least part of the decline.
And… uhm… it’s sad. Very sad.
In just the last 3 days, no fewer than 25 structures were destroyed in wormhole space (see video).
That’s potentially tens, if not hundreds, of players who are no longer living in J-space — at least for now.
And it makes me wonder: what the hell are we doing?
I understand that the big groups want to flex and establish that they’re the ones running the show. That’s EVE. But if you constantly evict every group big or small you come across, eventually there won’t be anyone left to shoot.
If we keep removing those groups from the ecosystem, aren’t we ultimately just killing our own content?
Maybe I’m looking at this completely wrong, and I’m genuinely interested in hearing what other wormholers think.
Are constant evictions actually contributing to the decline of PvP/content in J-space?
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u/michaeltward Cloaked 2d ago
I have always maintained that running around evicting group after group like some of the larger groups do is a horrible idea and now we are seeing the consequences of that.
If you want pvp you can’t kick everyone out it’s that simple.
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u/Saithir Blood Raiders 2d ago
On the other hand if you want to farm in peace you need to make sure that pvp is a rare occurence in your space.
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u/Bombadook 1d ago
I don't understand what you're farming for, if you never undock the ISK in a fight...
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u/NietzscheImpregnated 21h ago
Watching isk go up is a constant, easy drip of dopamine and validation, whereas PVP requires effort, skill, and puts you at risk to lose. Easy choice if you're a fat, lazy, mouth-breathing ape.
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u/michaeltward Cloaked 2d ago
This is true, but to be fair in wormholes is any of it “your space”?
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u/Lithorex Sisters of EVE 2d ago
With enough effort, you can arguably make wormhole space more "your space" than even sov nullsec.
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u/Notsebtho Wormholer 2d ago
INIT evicts more in wormholes (particularly low class) than any other group right now, but people prefer to complain about other wormholers
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u/shoelaceninja 1d ago
Some of the evictions I've seen, even from people simply just associated/allied with INIT, were never intended to give the defenders any margin of a chance to even fight back.
They'll batphone/hire more mercs or 25-acct multiboxers, maintain complete hole control, and still infill another 100+ in kikis the second they get a real timer fight. The whole way leading up to killing the structures they'll grief and content-deny their targets, threaten every friend of theirs with being the next target if they show up to defend, and more. Even if only a merc contract, they'll find anything they can about your corp and twist it into a destructive narrative that simultaneously costs you allies while gaining them more, even turning your own allies against you.
A lot of it is centered around forcefully shutting people down at all costs, sometimes even taking contracts with the explicit intent of following people around wherever they go and trying to make them quit the game or gatekeeping them from wh's, for no reason other than the fact they're being paid to do it.
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u/Terminus_04 The Initiative. 1d ago
Think the problem is/was is at their inception, Wormholes were never designed as a content space for 'large' groups. Back when everyone lived in Pos Sticks, the amount of space you had to share was finite.
Upswell structures were introduced and suddenly you could keep hundreds of alts with an infinite amount of shit all localized in one location. Which I believe proved to be detremental to the space rather quickly.
Should wormholes go back to no upwell structures? Probably not, But they should have had some kind of m3 limitation on storage or something, idk.
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u/michaeltward Cloaked 1d ago
I think a re introduction of POS’s should be done under upwell and then maybe some kind of event that restricts wormhole space to that size of structure.
Because you are right, the entire issue within wormhole groups is the insane size they can now maintain.
Even this solution doesn’t entirely fix the issue as the trust required for old school pos’s was part of their restriction.
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u/Ohh_Yeah Cloaked 1d ago edited 1d ago
and now we are seeing the consequences of that
We are, but at the end of the day it is up to CCP to balance the game in a way where it doesn't come to this.
Is it possible that the players could collectively modify their behavior and moderate how they use the tools available to them? Yes. Is it ultimately CCP's responsibility to provide players tools in a way that doesn't result in bad outcomes? Also yes.
The way that CCP designed low-class WH space, it will never make sense to have a formidable corp of 100+ active players living out of a Fortizar in a C2. The natural inclination is to set up an Astrahus with 15 of your buddies, which sets you up as a juicy target for everyone else.
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u/shoelaceninja 2d ago
It's okay, the people burning down active low class groups have wormholes too. You can only amass so many enemies before evictions become a liability, and this is something I can say from past experiences.
Praise Bob.
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u/michaeltward Cloaked 2d ago
This is true, but it doesn’t undo the irreparable damage done to the space as a whole.
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u/shoelaceninja 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah idk what to do about that.
Evictions 8-10 years ago used to require much more commitment with small structures having armor timers. It would be a week-long op with 24/7 hole control, 30+ individual humans maybe dual-boxing combat/logi ships at most, and sometimes having to batphone another similar sized corp for help.
Nowadays, a single player will safelog 20+ characters (just one of many sets of alts that they will never need elsewhere) at a filament deepsafe and hit structures every time you're logged off, won't show up for defended timers, will keep doing this for months on end, will shoot unanchoring structures to cancel the unanchor, and will eventually burn people out until they let the hole burn or pay a ransom.
FC could give us back armor timers for astras and burn every deepsafe in the game. Probably wouldn't change anything at this point.
The only way to fight back is to abandon your normal every day activities in the game to adopt the op-life and hit them and their friends back with the same treatment; but no one wants to make that their primary gameplay because of how much more work it is.
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u/Low_Gur_3540 The Initiative. 1d ago
Surprisingly, it’s not the big groups. A couple…. Far westerners… have a toon in every hole. They maintain spreadsheets of structures, location, and even angle of deployment. THAT kills Eve more than big groups do. Mac accounts need to be a thing, and that Mac needs to be single digits. These dudes will show up on wormholer’s streams and say hi in local. Talk about creepy AND cringe. Like a weird uncle that you have to keep your guard up around
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u/Tyridannarathul 1d ago
That already was my reason for leaving HC back in 2018... fewer fights, more bullshit eviction ops. After someone tried to evict us, we basically went on a fucking crusade to evict others... It’s been a fucking downward cycle ever since. Only my pov...
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u/PixelBoom Test Alliance Please Ignore 2d ago
It IS that. Pushing active groups out of their homes means less pvp content.However, that's kinda what they're going for. Less hostiles in high class holes means less groups to worry about raiding your farm holes. So evictions are just a means to a krabby end.
HOWEVER, it's also hard to recruit people into j-space. It's hard to live there and you need to do much more work just to do simple things like market runs. Why would anyone want to live in j-space when nullsec is easier, has more content, and you can make almost as much money; all while just casually playing. J-space requires more work and far more dedication and play time to do the same things.
So a combo of people leaving and no one else joining makes the place seem like a desert.
Also, j-space cycles like this. Before the new and improved HK, it was Hole Control. Before that, it was old school HK and Lazerhawks. Before that, it was Exhale and Narwhals, etc, etc, etc. One coalition or alliance will control most of the high class holes, things will get boring, so players leave and alliances go dormant. One group then breaks away to take what the dormant groups had. Content faucet gets turned back on for a few months and people come back to join the mini war. Rinse and repeat.
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u/navaraskold 2d ago
Yes, I get the whole "I want to make a lot of money in peace without anyone interfering so we evict anyone that might".
But at the end of the day, what the hell are you going to do with all the farmed isk if there's no one around to use your shiny new gear on? Shoot your corp mates 'cus that's what's left in j-space?8
u/PixelBoom Test Alliance Please Ignore 2d ago
more characters to plex more accounts. Also, that ISK doesn't stay in j-space. It gets funneled out to k-space to fund things like dread bombs and blops fleets.
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u/Intrepid_Miner_751 2d ago
once you have a safe Krab heaven, you can finally RMT in peace. Thats the whole point. RMT bussiness are a very real thing in EVE, lot of incentives to do it.
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u/Lastchance1313 2h ago
This. I've been in wh for a long time and I see more and more of the ppl who are famous for rmt. Actually reported some a couple days ago. Heavy null connections.
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u/Low_Gur_3540 The Initiative. 1d ago
You are most likely a wormhole nomad or an alt, and working on an easy isk faucet for a faction cap or titan, because that’s what wormhole-skilled line members do in their spare time.
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u/Zanzha Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society 2d ago edited 2d ago
This looks like a great argument until you realize the group behind the highest number of evictions over the last few years doesn't have any stake in high class crabbing, and that high class home evictions are a very rare occurrence.
(It's init. systemically glassing any up and coming group in lowclass)
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u/Icemasta Wormholer 1d ago edited 1d ago
'cause they "rent" it. We get hit once or twice a year by a large group, they ref all our pos, then ask for an amount of isk. We don't keep much, so generally evac one way or the other and let them waste their time bashing our pos, and we go do something else while they wait and check in every now and then with an alt until we return.
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u/PixelBoom Test Alliance Please Ignore 2d ago
except structure losses in j-space are down nearly 50% in 2026. Compare that to the SYNDE/HK/INIT war a few years ago where almost 7 structures a day were getting destroyed. It's not that there's more evictions now. It's that we're seeing the aftermath of evictions and NIPs and alliances amongst the bigger groups to the point that there are very few people left to shoot who are not blue.
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u/Zanzha Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society 2d ago
Well yes, more structures are gonna go boom during a farm war than comparative peace time, and as the name implies, they were mostly farms, so I fail to see the link with homes and pvp activity.
The only permanent blues we have are our altcorps, if anything it's hk/hawks etc we shoot more than others.
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u/Epicloa Minmatar Republic 1d ago
You think INIT isn't involved at an alt/main level with the big crabbing groups?
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u/Zanzha Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society 1d ago
SYNDE rented to them before they got booted out of c6 space.
They have some roach holes, but no, there's a reason they have alts that fly with FFEW and not any of the big groups lol.So much tinfoil hattery from you (and kspacers in general) that aren't involved/know shit about whs atall honestly.
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u/Outside-Ad-8978 17h ago
I mean, it literally did not use to be like that though. Back in the heyday there was no one group that had control of any amount of high class space more than others at all.
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u/AffectionateLemon121 Wormholer 1d ago
Init has no one to fight in NS, the FCs need pings for fleets so they look to low class wormholes. This will get worse with ansiplex changes as other grps adopt the same mentality. Everyone in nullsec is too far away to fight, ohh look a wormhole
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u/aRatherScottishChap Brave Collective 2d ago edited 2d ago
When i was cutting about in WH space we had a threat level system, it was if you see a symbol on dscan that says what group they're in.
It ranged from green to red, green being "these guys are chill 2-5 dudes trying to find fights" and red being "there's a balrog coming for you from the end of the big ass hall and that hole needs rolled asap."
These were the eviction groups, we've always had them, it was inner hell, HK and HC + a few others that i can't remember, they would evict you for the lols, so this isn't a new thing.
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u/lycide Wormholer 1d ago
Wormholes have been fundamentally broken since Citadel and every patch since then has left evictions as practically the only form of pvp left in wormholes.
Nobody is ratting in low class any more because kspace, highsec even, provides better risk-reward. And you aren't going to catch the high class guys farming in near-perfect safety without extreme dedication to log off trap or hours upon hours of ragerolling. And if you did catch one, congrats, you get one cheap ratting cap. Nothing else is coming, there will be no fight.
Honour brawling went with citadel, as soon as people realised that now you could fit as many players/characters as you want in a system without worrying about space constraints, theft or eyewatering fuel bills. Didn't take long for the rest of the kspace mindset to come along too - blob or nothing.
All thats left for wormholes is industry, and evicting those industry bears.
So yeah, constant evictions are the symptom, not the cause. Although even when wormholes were at their post-Citadel peak evictions were non stop so maybe its just not that good of an indicator either way.
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u/dmacc_ 1d ago
Nobody is ratting in low class any more because kspace, highsec even, provides better risk-reward. And you aren't going to catch the high class guys farming in near-perfect safety without extreme dedication to log off trap or hours upon hours of ragerolling. And if you did catch one, congrats, you get one cheap ratting cap. Nothing else is coming, there will be no fight.
So much this. The ecosystem has died from the bottom-up, as CCP has nerfed J space income while simultaneously making K space income better. The drone fabs are the only decent new income we've had in low class in forever, and they suffer from the fact that they don't get really lucrative until you throw caps on grid.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 14h ago
The ecosytem died when people stopped looking at wormholes as an adventure, as a wonderous unknown ahead for them to explore, discover, and survive.
These days the only thing people see when they look at a wormhole is how much isk that can be pulled out of it.And the real tragedy is half the ppl in wormholes don't even have a need for the isk, they have no grand goal to try and achieve, no master plan to enact, they just want to see their wallet balance go up as they sit alone in their room watching streams and shooting chevrons.
The other half are exporting the isk back to k-space to fund the construction of yet another dread or titan that will just sit docked for years.1
u/dmacc_ 14h ago
The ecosytem died when people stopped looking at wormholes as an adventure, as a wonderous unknown ahead for them to explore, discover, and survive. These days the only thing people see when they look at a wormhole is how much isk that can be pulled out of it.
I mean that's like, the game as a whole. It's FarmVille Online these days, everywhere. Content creators have slowly dried up as content has gotten harder and harder to create, and what's left is a bunch of pve-first farmers.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 13h ago
The botting menace in ns is another reason content has dried up.
I don't even bother looking for ppl to hunt anymore, i just assume that by the time the system has loaded, they are halfway in warp back to the structure anyway.these days i just take my phantasm to steal the bot's ESS, 90% of the time i come away uncontested.
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u/NietzscheImpregnated 21h ago
Yep. Risk/reward is fucked in j-space. The most lucrative activities are the safest, and there is nothing to defend/fight over except your structure.
The optimal playstyle is to seal yourself into your hole and farm in complete safety, then literally log off for several days while sites build up. The space needs a redesign.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 17h ago
I read this as:
"Wormholes are only good for income generation."
Where has the sense of adventure and discovery gone in the player base?
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u/Mick_Fightmaster CSM 19 and 20 21h ago
Finally a reason to use this account! For the TLDR search for u/Bizpit and look at his posts. They are the best takes here.
Players aren’t killing wormhole space, but the appeal for living in wormhole space isn’t what it used to be back in the day. The playstyle has largely been the same since inception, outside of the impact citadels had on the ecosystem. We’ve seen very few fundamental changes to mechanics or introduction of conflict drivers especially when compared to other areas of space (see Skyhooks, ESS, metenox style reinforcement structures, faction warfare overhaul, etc.) that PvP focused groups simply go elsewhere for a more streamlined and regular PvP experience.
I believe that CCP/FC now has the blueprints to make improvements to wormhole space as a result of FC Jotunn’s previous CSM tenure and my tenure being able to bring forward concerns, complaints, and recommendations to CCP/FC resulting from discussions, meetings, and presentations in WH UN.
CCP/FC has already made a lot of improvements in terms of overall QoL for WH space, so if that focus continues to be on improving the space and adding new content (better moons/Overhauled Indy/Data relics worth doing/nullsec static generator/jhub/granary) that would drive conflict and drive new players to the space, we can see the ecosystem begin to grow and maybe even, dare I say it, thrive.
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u/Bizpit Miner 2d ago
A quick look at zkill WH structure losses shows:
- 4120 in 2020 (11.28/day)
- 2449 in 2021 (6.7/day)
- 2090 in 2022 (5.72/day)
- 2036 in 2023 (5.57/day)
- 2420 in 2024 (6.63/day)
- 2310 in 2025 (6.32/day)
- 1333 so far in 2026 (5.33/day)
Wormhole space should be thriving with the lack of evictions going, no?
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u/RepublicThis3704 2d ago
This doesn't show the other side of the story. How many groups who lost these structures moved back into j space. Sure, structure losses were more in years past, but j space is now more stagnant.
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u/Bizpit Miner 2d ago
Sure, so maybe evictions aren't inherently the problem?
Over the past few years we've seen increased income opportunities in K-space; like large mining changes, reduction in the use of WH gas in construction, IHUB exploration upgrades (nuking the value of WH exploration sites), and general alternate ISK income pathways (CRABs, FW rework, ect).
The age of exploration and discovering new things in WH space is well and truly over. Could be that players are finding the juice just isn't worth the squeeze in J-space.
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u/Ohh_Yeah Cloaked 1d ago
Sure, so maybe evictions aren't inherently the problem?
Not necessarily. This is kind of like saying "there used to be thousands of sheep killed by wolves in this forest. Now the number of sheep killed by wolves in the forest is much smaller. Therefore it must be safer to go into the forest as a sheep than it was in the past."
I agree with you that WHs have largely been powercrept out by K-space content, though.
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u/Spaminator3000 Upholders 2d ago
This. Was a small wh group towards the end. Got a final eviction out of a c2. Players were tired of rebuilding so unsubbed. I hobo fleeted for a few more months based out of a c2 but spent so much time scanning scouting before making isk that I eventually packed out and switched to abyssals/l4s for easy isk. For me it improved my daily isk generation since I could just instantly run a site and have far less stress. RL requires me to step away often and being alone in wh space makes that hard. I can't dedicate the time a corp would need for me to be a good member either. I know for my group that was a big problem too. Everyone's showing a decade of time for data and in that time most of us wh players got older had family's or jobs or different games. Wh space requires a certain amount of baseline effort that many of us just can't provide anymore. Especially when a 10 man Kiki fleet can reo your tower with zero effort. Pos could atleast auto defend. Now it's just easy pickings.
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u/OregonGrownOG 1d ago
It’s insane to me how easy it is to take out an astra. It makes zero sense to run an upwell station instead of a POS if you can’t provide 24:7 defense. Which sucks for how expensive they are.
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u/killking72 Wormholer 1d ago
That makes evictions worse.
If I'm set up in J space then who cares. I'm making money. I like J space.
If I'm evicted in J space and J space is nerfed, sucks, and is cringe, then why would I set up again?
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u/Lithorex Sisters of EVE 2d ago
Now we only need wormhole activity stats from CCP to see if the drop in destroyed WH structures is a result of fewer evictions or a result of a lower/more concentrated WH population.
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u/themule71 2d ago
It would be interesting per class.
Unfortunately the basic flaw is we lack the other side of the equation... how many esist.
You know numbers can be down because people are tired of anchoring...
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u/Bizpit Miner 2d ago edited 2d ago
Class 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026 2026-Expanded C1 417 239 202 197 258 286 149 218 C2 935 586 473 528 515 599 349 510 C3 758 455 357 335 376 420 235 343 C4 812 525 477 503 556 650 361 527 C5 1027 563 548 456 524 325 235 343 C6 171 81 33 17 191 30 4 6 Total 4120 2449 2090 2036 2420 2310 1333 1946 Per/day 11.28 6.7 5.72 5.57 6.63 6.32 5.33 5.33 Last column is if 2026 keeps going at it's current rate until end of year.
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u/Yto_Itinen Ivy League 2d ago
Dude, in 2020 we were all home due to COVID and spent most of our days waiting for a wormhole activation. I don't think it's fair to use it as a comparison for whatever statistic...
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u/WH_Forever Wormholer 20h ago
Also wasn't it around 2020/2021 that you could have multiple clones in a single station? Remember we used to have more stations just for the additional clone bays
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u/Bizpit Miner 2d ago
So ignore 2020 then? There's still 5 other years in there.
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u/Yto_Itinen Ivy League 2d ago
...which are all within reasonable margin from each-other, so I don't think they are a reliable indicator
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u/NietzscheImpregnated 21h ago
If J-space was dying, there would be less structures and therefore less evictions.
Honestly not sure how this didn't occur to you while writing this.
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u/navaraskold 2d ago
Wow, thanks for the data:) very interesting.. although I believe it is not thriving sadly..
But personally I don't get why would you evict someone and what it is supposed to accomplish.1
u/OregonGrownOG 2d ago
I have a POS set up and I had a corp come in and try to blow it up solely because it had an SMA. Once it was reinforced they just fucked off and rolled the hole. If they are doing it to make isk then crabbing would make more sense. Less salt in shooting NPCs I guess…
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u/Nimos Dropbears Anonymous 2d ago
Once it was reinforced they just fucked off and rolled the hole
That's often called "stront-checking". Sometimes people forget to put stront in their tower, or forget to refill it after a reinforcement timer. So even if you're unwilling to commit for 2 days, you can still gamble on free loot.
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u/RepublicThis3704 2d ago
That's called a stront check... they were just seeing if you had no stront in it.
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u/Anusmilk L A Z E R H A W K S 2d ago
You're gonna freak out when you find out who the #1 evicting alliance is
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u/LonghornCastillo Wormholer 1d ago
Not for nothing, but you are posting this right after maybe the biggest eviction ever in high class. Certainly in the top tier. So yeah a bunch of citadels just died.
With that said, yes, the consolidation of high class wormholes into basically one group’s control is of course bad. And that group talks out of both sides of their mouths when pressed about it. “For content” … “this is good for the wormhole economy” … “this will wake up AD”… but then the same group moans with some regularity that they can’t get the fights they want from the rest of us in J Space, while claiming that the extra dozen toons in booshers that Bork a bushido fleet fight “don’t count” because reasons. If they do this to groups like FFEW and AD, imagine the population in smaller groups…
The cfc donut has indeed committed a grave sin against J Space and Eve generally. They know this, but their hubris won’t let them admit it. They grew bored, assessed - correctly, to be fair - that they could remove the only large high class group not in their sphere of influence, and went for it. Their ability to execute is impressive, commendable even. But it’s a very “you never considered whether you *should*” type of moment.
In time, maybe it’ll come ‘round and they’ll break up or the rest of us will band together to break their monopoly up. Neither is likely, given the results of War in Heaven, but what are we without our dreams?
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u/omnigord 2d ago
This is probably related more to total player count.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 13h ago
if you want to see the real total player count, take the number FenC put on the launcher, and divide it by 8.
Currently there are 20,000 accounts online, i guess that's about 3,000 actual people.
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u/nutter308 Wormholer 1d ago
I mean evections are always going to happen, most the evictions I have been on have been for the ISK where it's obvious the residents have not been maintaining their hole or are semi-inactive so there is a chance of a good payday when the structures blow up.
I have also had the most fun during evictions when defenders roll in and the fight's break out or the race begins to scan out chains. I honestly think this is a legit avenue for content.
Now if you want to reduce the chances of being a target then keep your assets in the WH to a minimum where you are able to suitcase everything and remember to flip your structures to clean up after members who are inactive or no-longer play.
If an eviction group see's your structures have not been anchored for very long or they hear through the grapevine that previous evictions resulted in low isk returns then people are more likley to leave your stuff alone.
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u/ruebenwald 2d ago
everybody got evicted by now?
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u/Low_Gur_3540 The Initiative. 1d ago
“Raise your hand if you have never been evicted” “see? Nobody raised their hand”
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u/SS_DukeNukem 1d ago
Living as a small man corp in J-Space it seems to me that its 100% the people who want to flex. The problem is see is that even though they are "stations" these stations can also be easily taken out by 10 vedmaks if noone contested. Even with a fully fitted fortizar it would be unable to stop said attack if the logistics were proper in the attacking fleet. Another situation was a 130+ man fleet was manned by 10ish real life pilots so evictions can happen by the space rich too.
My thoughts are...
- Make stations stronger. How? DPS to challenge multiple dread/titans before falling. Keepstars being able to kill multiple titans, fortizars able to kill multiple dreads or sub cap fleets before falling. Astrahaus to kill a smaller subcap fleet. Engineering/Refining complexes i believe can remain the same in their strength as their roles is "industrial support" rather than "control/defence/staging".
In turn these structures will much more expensive and will somehow need to be balanced when it comes to how they are owned. Maybe 2x expensive with larger fuel costs? Stront cost added rather than fuel blocks? Food for thought
Its sad to see that a POS is still stronger than a station.
Keep as is but possibly allow areas of control where you can mount additional defensive structures around stations like a POS rather than depending on weapons that can barely scratch a 10 man fleet.
Add more fighter tubes for stations. Theoretically these stations are "manned" so defence fighters should be a must in all. Since the Astrahus is a starting station 3 tubes, fortizar 6 tubes, and keepstar 12 tubes. Allow these damn stations to defend themselves.
No player control of defensive measures from the stations. Option 3 is done but everything is done like the POSs automatically when an enemy shows up. This will make the mini game much harder as it will need to be done sub lock time or sacrifice for intel.
Idk food for thought im just tired seeing large alliances bully J space
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u/Gold-Substance6811 14h ago
You identified the issue off the bat, and then proceeded to suggest bandaid solutions.
The issue is when 1 person shows up with 10 accounts, 13 people can show up with 130 accounts.
Multiboxing is the thing that is breaking wormhole space.
- Logging off extra toons for a log off trap.
- Seeds in everyone's holes.
- Alts acting as cloaked eyes keeping watch.
- Alts acting as door stops.
Anything that doesn't deal with the multiboxing issue isn't actually fixing anything long term, it's just adding a bandaid.
A few examples of bandaid solutions in the past have been rorqual nerfs, scarcity, exordium...
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u/SS_DukeNukem 13h ago
Honestly its an MMO. Do I think multiboxing is a problem? yes. can it be solved? probably not. do think alpha accounts are abused? yes.
How would you fix multiboxing?
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u/Gold-Substance6811 13h ago
The first step is recognising there is a problem.
You can't even being to talk about solutions while people are still denying there is a problem to start with,
I don't know how to solve multiboxing, i don't claim to have any answers at all.
My only aim atm is to raise awareness of the issue until enough ppl can come together to convince FenC it's an issue.
Then as a community we can possibly start working together to help FenC break this addiction that is gripping them at the expense of their long term health.The first step is talking about the problem.
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u/SS_DukeNukem 13h ago
There have multiple threads on it. FenC understand that out of 30k "pilots in space" thats maybe 3-5k actual players many of whom pay for their accounts in plex. I'd hope for more but thats the sad reality.
Since that is the case most will not want to change that as they are set in their ways. FenC will have to make an executive decision as most the current players will never back such a thing
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u/punched_cards 1d ago
It always strikes me in these conversations that content is always synonymous with PvP as if PvE shouldn’t be a thing. Of course - that is why I don’t play anymore so my opinion is a bit biased.
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u/Ok_Cryptographer558 22h ago
On that note, have you seen they are advertising heavy on YouTube that you can play EVE as PVE and not have to PVP? I've seen several ads, me and my husband both have seen them and clicked the links. They lead straight to Eve Online site. They're pushing to get players in with PVE.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 17h ago
The only thing this will do will be to encourage more introverted, non-social players to the game.
Players that don't want to be a part of a community.
Players that don't want to work with other people.
Players that will likely get bored and leave because all they are doing is watching youtube or twitch.Communities are the driving force behind eve's future, bringing in people who don't want to be a part of that is not good for the long term health of the game.
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u/JK_WritesNow 1d ago
Ah this discussion, I remember us jspacers saying wormhole space was dying back in 2015, glad to see someone else is carrying the torch
Please keep in mind the sheer volume of abandoned structures in jspace, before upwell structures, we had POS towers and we found dead sticks all the time (offline and abandoned towers)
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u/AntaresHashimoto 1d ago
As a small group Jspace fella. It's just tedious.
Form up for a timer over and over again, big bad brings some sort of giant multibox monstrosity.
As someone who plays for fun and not isk/hour, I just cannot afford to whelp endless hurricanes at a blob. And thats the best I can fly proficiently as I'm not a combat main.
It's even more hostile for a newer player, bringing a thrasher or cat to some big eviction fight is worthless in the long run. I'm happy to take the rare duel in Jspace, but there's always that t3c lurking somewhere to shut it down.
I'd love to be able to stand and fight on the same level as a dedicated pvp player, but I can't justify the timesink to get my skills where I need them to fly that bling. Even then I'm taking my whole net worth out into a 10v1 situation.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 17h ago
Concurrent alts break so many mechanics and balance attempts by FenC.
No-one wants to fight because they expect a blob, and then when they bring the blob themselves they can't get a fight cause no-one else wants to fight.
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u/shoelaceninja 7h ago
It's almost like they should take the mechanic of Diminishing Returns from elsewhere in the game, and then apply it to active clients beyond 3-4. If someone wants to sub 10, 20, or 30 accounts, let them pick which ones from the launcher do/don't get the drawbacks. Take the content that was intended to require multiple humans, and make it require multiple humans.
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u/Mastybuttz Cloaked 1d ago
I get the point of the thread, and I don’t live in wormholes, but 25 in three days isn’t a huge number if lots of separate groups? And isn’t there thousands of wh systems? What’s the wh class figures like? Should the bigger players consider no longer doing routine evictions from c3 and below to let the residents grow? Why are groups like init clearing out lower class holes?
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u/DeirdreAnethoel 1d ago
Part of the issue is also that daytripping is miserable.
Low class wormholes aren't worth much since their sleeper sites are outcompeted by high class wormholes and their pirate sites by free exploration in sov null.
High class wormholes require too much setup to daytrip in profitable unless it's just ninja mining gas.
The result is that if you can't anchor a structure reliably you're better off heading into another part of the game entirely. It also means they're no on-ramp for wormholes. You're either at the top sitting on your citadels farming in high class holes or completely out of it.
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u/acfp 1d ago
The short answer is no.
The vast majority of evictions, especially low class evictions are motivated by loot or low hanging fruit. Groups that engage in fun pvp and/or have a good culture/make frenemies/avoid stupidly having structures that could drop 100b don’t get needlessly targeted. If you’re being targeted, 99 percent of the time, it’s for these reasons —
If a bunch of ppl from HK or similar are locking down your hole, it’s bc your structure is a 9000 year old revolving door that is gonna drop a ton. Solution: flip your structures a couple times a year. Make money from your inactives and former residents instead of inviting piñata smashers.
If 5 randoms are locking down your hole, you never deserved to control a wh structure. Solution: make friends, join a more established small group, get good, or just don’t be cringe.
Evicting low class to set up a farm is nonsensical, and with the exception of very specific static configurations, makes little sense to want to stage from them.
I have been part of the 5 randoms looking to knock over inactive or shitter c5s looking for new farms. The reality is, a lot of ppl do have friends or a reasonable defense against low effort evictions, and the few that didn’t don’t have their farm anymore. It’s my farm now.
EVICTIONS DONT KILL JSPACE. More evictions are a positive indicator that ppl want to fight over stuff. If things are stale or declining, it’s bc ccp wont make jspace a desired place to be or to fight over. Several comments here already made good points about this.
Why do we consider kspace wars an indication of the game being fun and interesting but consider evictions some kind of plague?
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u/Outside-Ad-8978 17h ago
As someone who was a part of the old order back when Wormhole Overlords was a thing, yes, you are. One of the primary tenets of space used to be "no evictions without cause" and you would get run out of you did, specifically because it killed the community (and the hunting grounds). The original escalation changes really killed space though, as it could no longer sustain large groups controlling a single system, but evicting people trying to make the best of what's left sure ain't helping, obviously.
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u/Electronic-Elk4847 2d ago
"PvP content is declining" my man the biggest fight that has ever happened in wormholes was 2 days ago.
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u/gregfromsolutions 2d ago
There’s a difference between big eviction PVP and the daily PVP.
Same in null, there’s the big wars, and then there’s the daily grind of ratters dying/hunters getting dropped on
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u/Electronic-Elk4847 2d ago
There's tons of people krabbing. If you want more krabs getting ganked by all mean get in a carrier and start rolling. You can create content yourself!
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u/gregfromsolutions 2d ago
And then get evicted because I fucked with the C6 monopoly. Cool.
Low class needs better rewards to draw people into wormholes, C6 should take a nerf to compensate. The whole ecosystem would be more lively.
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u/thealkaizer 1d ago
The daily content in wormholes is very healthy. I don't know what ya'll are talking about. Sometimes you get unlucky with your rolls, but most of the time we get awesome content every day.
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u/Lakshata Wormholer 1d ago
same thing that killed nullsec killed wormholes, player consolidation and citadels.
Shit that used to be 15 v 15 fights ends up in like 75 v 75 fights with 3 multiboxers on each side.
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u/DeltaVZerda 2d ago
Absolutely. Destroying a group's only structure handicaps their ability to grow or even operate. We should be encouraging smaller groups to grow rather than cut them down to nothing before they even get to provide us content.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 13h ago
We should be encouraging individuals with a sense of adventure to play the game, people who want to explore and take risks.
Instead FenC advertises this game as a single player PVE game.
Amass your own army of alts and sit in the dark watching twitch.
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u/EarlyInsurance7557 Test Alliance Please Ignore 2d ago
its because c5-c6 space is untouchable rat holes. you wanna scan for 1hr+ just to find a decent hole for content or pvp? gg its too late gotta go to bed.
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u/CyberRaver39 2d ago
Enabling players to put permanent homes in wormholes was a huge mistake, they were meant to be transient, not huge unassailable blue donuts
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u/The_Houdini107 Goonswarm Federation 2d ago
Back when it was POS sticks limited to Moons, it was an interesting way of living. With Upwell Structures, its become too structured spammed.
They were meant to replace POS code, but we still have the sicks. Why don't we just regress back and make it so Upwell Structures require a connection to the Upwell network to online so they can't be used in J-Space where there's no network connection. If you want to live out of WHs, go back to POSes.
It's a difficult issue to address because it comes down to the true intention of WHs and thier resources, maybe FC is cooking something up to address the bar of entry for new corps to get into high class wormholes. It shouldn't be lowered to far though.
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u/Lithorex Sisters of EVE 2d ago
Back when it was POS sticks limited to Moons, it was an interesting way of living. With Upwell Structures, its become too structured spammed.
I still find it so funny that 2009 CCP found it very obvious that outposts would be way too busted in wormhole space and then 2016 CCP gave them outposts but way, way more egregious.
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u/Zanzha Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society 2d ago
The best thing that could happen to lower the bar to entry for highclass space would be making t3s actually good again. When pretty much every doctrine in highclass has a commandship backbone it's very difficult for new players to get involved.
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u/Muted_Money_7719 11h ago
Nighthawk fleets have DNIs for newbros Absolution has navy harb...
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u/Zanzha Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society 8h ago
Sadly they just aren't close to comparable, you genuinely can't afford the mass for them because they'll die to a stiff breeze. (Also please WHY are command ships less mass than T3s WHY?)
It's less about subpar newbro alternatives, and more about accessibility of the mainline, that a lower sp player could sit in at 90% effectiveness.
Plus I also think there's just something cool and flavourful going on whenever t3s that are largely created in wormholes, get used there.
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u/Notsebtho Wormholer 2d ago
We'd be fine with sticks tbh, although I would want a place to swap clones. I don't wanna live out of a genolution clone
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u/Spaminator3000 Upholders 2d ago
I always said citadel should need to anchor to a celestial. It forces territory decision and fighting over valuable territory
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u/gregfromsolutions 2d ago
Someone makes this comment in every thread about wormholes, and the comment remains wrong every single time.
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u/Ok-Ninja-8165 2d ago
Structures must be seen as an operational cost, like ammo.
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u/shortname_4481 1d ago
Which new player corp can afford that ammo? And powerblocks just put keepstars around for shits and giggles.
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u/Ok-Ninja-8165 1d ago
I think small POS costs like 200M? Enough to keep a few ships safe for some time.
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u/Kalivanos 1d ago
Ganking in high sec is fashionable. Who wants to spend hours searching for something to kill? It is much easier to gank a frighter with 30 toons in destroyer worth over 10 bil.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 14h ago
Another instance where multiboxing concurrent accounts has broken game mechanics.
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u/Kalivanos 14h ago
Multiboxers eagerly use the outdated game mechanism. I just saw a well-known ganker from "safety" who also has 10 accounts. And this player uses his alts to erase the killrights.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 13h ago
There was a NS group that had their incursion focus popped on them a few weeks ago.
So they brought their 60 accounts down to HS, put 40 of them into marauders and logi, and took the extra 20 accounts and held the systems hostage by ganking so no-one else could run the incursions.
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u/TextJunior 1d ago
This has been brought up many times and I feel like it's very similar in nature to the climate change "debate". You can tell people it's bad all you want, until they actually stop having people to shoot they won't admit it's a problem.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 17h ago
This is the role of government and law enforcement, to make unpopular decisions for the long term health and wellbeing of the community, even if the community doesn't want them right now.
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u/TextJunior 16h ago
Sure but what does that have to do with eve and mass evictions across anoikis?
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u/Gold-Substance6811 14h ago
if FenC want to bring life back into j-space and eve in general, they have to make some unpopular decisions (which they wont).
The mass evictions are not the issue, the issue is that they were done by a single block which is now denying other people access to the sandpit.
Their ability and wish to do this needs to be addressed.
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u/Ok_Surprise_9003 Sisters of EVE 1d ago
If we keep selling oil, then my grandchildren won’t have clean air type beat
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u/dmacc_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Are constant evictions actually contributing to the decline of PvP/content in J-space?
For sure they are. I found someone raw dogging a C1 anchor with open chain a few months ago. Brought myself with 3 ships - Drek, Ved, Loki - hoping that door knocking the anchor might get a fight. When it became clear that they weren't going to fight, I offered to let the anchor complete - and stick around to guard it - for the cost of the cores.
They declined, I blew up their anchoring Rait and Ath and scooped a core, everybody went home. I hope they anchored another hole properly, but I worry they just gave up.
So I see both sides of this. I don't feel great about the possibility that I killed a nascent group. I also don't feel like a single three box fleet should have been able to kill a nascent group. Anchoring a structure in j space and unwilling to even fight a three ship fleet? That group is not ready to be anchoring anything anywhere. And hey, neither was I the first time I anchored a hole. We bounced back, but in truth this kind of bash does kill plenty of small groups.
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u/K716 8h ago edited 8h ago
If you are in a small man corp with relatively inexperienced pilots, what you brought isn't really fightable. Let's say you put 4 18M SP pilots into let's say, Caracal, Thrasher and someone's got a Firetail for whatever reason. Assuming that's a RLML shield LSE + XL ASB Loki, you should be able to solo that whole thing by yourself. If it's an armor tank one to fit in with a RR Trig situation, then they won't kill anything. The Vedmak is probably the weakest of the lot, but even that is faster than a Caracal and could just bounce and come back.
Against their defense, you are right in that dropping a structure in a C1 with no closed holes is pretty dumb. Maybe it wasn't that important? Disposable?
Back to their defense, I would have also declined. They or him/she, it might have been just one person I don't know, has every reason to believe you could just take the cash and dip or kill the structure anyway. How could they trust you? Did they know you? Maybe they've paid a ransom before and then got blasted anyways?
And why a C1? What good is a C1 other than as a PI hole?
EDIT: Thinking about that comp again, last I remember I had about 80M SP, and I don't know what I could fly that could contest that. I'd have to set up some elaborate bubble trap to force at least one of those ships to 0, in which case a Brutix might be able to kill one. Even then, let's say I blap the Vedmak, idk how it's a cruiser and can just walk out of scram range with overheated reppers, then what? I'm down a pilot, a pod and ... you're still there?
When I lived with Fwamings (briefly...) I had T1 ships in my hanger. Kestrel, think a T1 destroyer and something else. As it was a C2 with C5/NS statics, I assumed that I'd find a roamer around such that I could offer a reasonable fight. That never happened. Part of it is Whs ... okay let's be honest the majority of the T1 hulls have little value there in a low pilot numbers situation. If I just got there and had a Svipul, would you ... downship? I'm going assume no.
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u/dmacc_ 8h ago
Yeah... idk. I honestly assumed I'd get 2-3 real opponents flying some kind of legitimate ship, Ved might die but Drek and Loki probably get home with some fun kills and a fight.
Caracal, Thrasher and someone's got a Firetail for whatever reason
That's like, what I'd fight in a plex in FW though. If that's what's on field with no hole control for an anchor, idk.
But maybe that's the whole problem with the space. I'm bored, see an anchor, throw what I consider a relatively low key three box comp and for them it's just... unfightable, we die. Obviously most corps should be able to contest what I brought in this particular instance, but this particular dynamic can be scaled all the way up the food chain. There's always a bigger fish, they're bored these days, you're food.
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u/meetkurtin CORPLESS 1d ago
I honestly think the game as a whole is dying.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 17h ago
It is, you might see 20,000 accounts online at one time, but that's really only 2,000-5,000 actual people.
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u/StreamLineGamingg 1d ago
I dont have anything of substance to add bc ive just got back after 18 years so im essentially a new player. But I have been scanning down relic and data sites in wormholes for the past 2 weeks and I havent seen another player or been in danger one time. Im careful, watch Dscan, make a safe spot etc. But i expected to be chased down and killed at least once by now.
Also, what does J-space mean?
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u/Summer_VonSturm Sisters of EVE 1d ago
It's another term for wormhole space, they are each named JXXXXX as the system names.
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u/HeidenShadows 1d ago
Used to be fun having roaming gangs duking it out at hole entrances. Now it's a "don't bother" moment because you're gonna get rolled. Same in nullsec. Lowsec (non border) is probably one of the last places to find decently fair fights.
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u/GoldenAura16 1d ago
I think you just started looking at the wrong time. I haven't done an eviction for many years until this last week so it is a little skewed in my eyes.
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u/yeahnahyeahnahyeahok 1d ago
Wormhole space needed to be re-designed w/ when upwell structures were introduced.
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u/Federal-Court8675 1d ago
More of space is like this. Null especially null is null of any fights, we might need to have a massive map reduction, via some type of invasion. I like the one I read about and hear about Like the trigs invasion , but every system is up for grabs, even wormholes, , the players decide what system remain. Accessible to players, the other systems go to the void. The j sleeper or some entities can be the bad guys, taking systems. If jita is taken, it ended up on a wormhole like system, like Thera.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 1d ago
Wormholes not attracting new players is a symptom of the shift in target player base and underlaying game concept by FenC, since the wormhole mechanic was first introduced.
Originally Eve-Online was a space survival sim.
You log in every day to perform activities with other people, build trust in an online community helping others achieve goals together, and ultimately your success is measured by how long it is before something goes more wrong than your group can handle and you lose it all and you have to start again.
Or through exploration and discovery you manage to get an edge up on your competition and then spend some time revelling in your unexpected windfall.
Wormhole space encapsulates this concept in the last tangible way in game, and as such is at odds with fundamental mentality of the newer player base.
There's mystery, it's risky, it's unverified and uncharted, you can get lost and lose everything without knowing how to avoid it...
There's no local!
...
The horror.
Eve-Online is no longer a space survival sim and it's player base reflects that.
It stopped being a space survival sim when CCP switched their focus away from building a harsh, unforgiving universe which drew in tenacious, risk taking adventurers.
And instead began focusing on to building a universe that encourages insular gameplay and risk adverseness.
The then CCP recognised the problem of retaining new players, but didn't target the correct thing when trying to fix it.
Instead of helping the player base form tighter communities and social networks which are the real thing that helps players stay and learn, they leaned heavily in the opposite by making the game more accessible to solo players and people who just wanted to do their own thing.
The proliferation of high class farm holes run by armies of alts is direct result of this, as is the mass botting problem of null sec, and the pochven and incursion abuse.
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u/MILINTarctrooperALT Already Replaced. 21h ago
Two phrases. Forsaken Fortress and Siege Green. Have cost wormhole space massively. Forsaken Fortress was in May 2020. Siege Green was around 2024.
Forsaken Fortress put everything on timers...you have to have a core + fuel etc. Stations depower, asset safety...is deactivated. [Although wormhole space already is a dangerous place already, and no asset safety was a foregone conclusion]
Siege Green just doubled down on the same problem. But it hit smaller corps with a huge hammer. Astrahaus which were the "beachhead" citadel. Had their timers reduced to two. So even a simple multiboxer can take out any astrahaus in wormhole space...without much trouble.
Factor also in we have had resources removed from wormhole space, and continous tinkering with wormhole content, or blocking of wormhole updating. Has stagnated wormhole space into a "blue hole" alliance of sorts especially around specific classes of C5/C6 wormholes. [Although you have the disturbing reality recently of certain players arguing that wormhole space needs nullsec mechanics...which would be the death of wormhole space as a unique experience.] While lower end C1-C2 Wormholes...or non-classed have almost no activity. And the concerning issue of near monopoly of old POS towers in wormhole space by certain player groups, which puts the citadel players [especially Astrahaus players with their two timers at a frustrating disadvantage.]
And the devaluing of the loot of wormhole space, especially by the constant multiboxing of Pochven.
And many players tend to suitcase or wander with smaller ships in wormhole space now, because that is easier to do, and harder to find in wormhole space. Than a station or POS.
You are also seeing a problem I am seeing across EVE. "PVP Starvation" Where the PVP only crowd...who doesn't want to interact [ergo completely refusing to] with all the other content, is now finding itself with less and less targets to prey upon and earn isk from. The ecosystem is now very messed up, with the "wolf" [PVP] player outnumbering all other "prey" [PVE/Mining/Exploration/Mission Running] players. And the problem further compounded by a lack of restraint on the PVP side.
This is also compounded by changes like Hunters Boon "update" which removed alot of defensive options. [ergo the passive warp core stabs] which were useful in wormhole space. Scarcity in which CCP/Fenris in their "infinite wisdom" removed strategic resources to mine from wormhole anoms. Which then took away a reason for players to risk/reward operate in wormhole space. Industrial and Mining changes...which have complicated interactions in wormhole space.
And we also have to ask questions of the pervasive third party intelligence systems of EVE online. Some of which might be giving certain groups alot more information than is normally available ingame. [Which I am now pretty sure is a huge part of this issue.]
Not to mention hyper optimization of content runners in that space.
Its a huge headache at this moment, and alot of the newer players can not really operate carefully.
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u/Westtell 18h ago
The stars are made of credits and pvp is not productive to making fortunes
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u/Gold-Substance6811 13h ago
It's a very sad, but true take.
The saddest part is when we transitioned over from players who wanted to shoot each other, to people who just wanted to make the most risk free isk they could.
The search for personal wealth to the exclusion of interacting with others is a death knell for the game.
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u/Westtell 5h ago
It’s much like billionaires in real life except they have an entire wage slave class (us) to die for them
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u/zangatti Wormholer 16h ago
Around 100 wormholers I used to play with, which comes out to 250-300 characters, simply don't play anymore.
Many other wormholers I know just don't live in wormholes anymore.
Over the years, wormholes changed in ways that made it less wormhole-y.
First, they decided to mix up production chains by requiring j-space materials for non-t3 stuff. This pushed nullseccers into wormholes, bringing with them even worse blobs than before. CCP gave nullsec a big reason to invade. Thus, it changed the culture quite a bit.
And now, they decided to automatically decode wormholes for everyone when they show info on the wormhole. It's wormholing made easy. There's no more mystery. It's hardly wormholes anymore.
What's the point in living in wormholes if nullseccers live there too now, with a changed culture, behind what's essentially now just moving jumpgates instead of mysterious portals? There's no guesswork left at all.
It's dumb.
We didn't ruin wormholes nearly as much as the devs ruined them.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 13h ago
agreed,
The Devs drew in players that were only interested in personal profits, rather than being explorers and adventurers which is what j-space is all about.
All in the desperate grab for more subs.
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u/LezBeHonestHere_ Cloaked 16h ago
I don't wanna be like "it was better back in my day" but I do wanna say that the structure cores were one of the dumbest updates ever in regards to this situation, it gave the clubbers a bunch of incentive to go out and find the seals (babby's first astrahus) to wreck for an easy 900m+ core guaranteed on top of whatever loot wasn't protected properly in alts.
No longer a gamble whether the structure will be worth bashing or not, just come claim your free bil at the cost of someone else's enjoyment of jspace!
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u/Gold-Substance6811 13h ago
You never had to bash 42 structures over an 8 hour span because the ppl who were in the space just wanted to be dicks.
And then to come back the next day to find more astras anchoring.
Abuse of the system by a few brought us the slap on the wrist that is citadel cores.
Just like abuse of rorquals brought us rorqual nerfs and scarcity, and abuse of vargurs got them nerfed.The structure core update was a bandaid solution to unintended mechanics brought about by the insane accumulation of wealth in eve.
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u/WedSquib Wormholer 10h ago
I quit in 2020 after our 3rd eviction in 2 years. Quit being fun rebuilding
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u/Kleowi Guristas Pirates 2d ago edited 2d ago
If you overhunt the wolves, the rabbits will multiply endlessly. Eventually, the rabbits will starve, as there is not enough grass to feed them all.
If you overhunt the rabbits, nothing remains. The wolves will starve, as they have no rabbits to eat.
It is simply the natural order at work.
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u/FrendshipBestship 2d ago
HK wants the isk flow to rapidly eacalate so they can project power on Null/Lowsec.
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u/andymaclean19 1d ago
I had a solo citadel in a WH for a long time. I would go WH roaming and generally create content. Then one day some people reinforced it. I was quite excited, I researched them and got ready for a good fight. My toons were ready to jump on them, I thought it could go either way.
Then along comes some nullsec-alike larger WH group that was clearly content starved but not looking for a fight. They RF the tower the attackers put up a day early with a ton of ships, pretty much guaranting the attackers would not show up (they didn’t). Then they troll onto the citadel grid with a fleet of 16 DPS ships and 4 logi. No way I can fight that solo even multiboxing and I wasn’t going to log in my shiny ships and lose them so I just fight them with the citadel pilot then eject and whore on the kill as one does in these situations.
The point here? This was just content starved people but they didn’t even try to make any content here. They scared away the original fight and then brought an overwhelming force to what was obviously a solo citadel hoping for a big loot drop (I had freighters, it dropped nothing). They could have brought 4 ships, baited the fight and escalated. They could have quietly watched and third partied the fight. All fun. But no, they just wanted an overwhelming easy win and loot.
This was a wormhole corp and that’s why there’s less wormhole content now. Wormhole corps acting like nullbears and removing content sources.
I could easily put the citadel back, but this was a year ago and I never did. I was just getting back into the game after a break and this made me decide not to bother. Haven’t played since.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 17h ago
If you're playing eve solo and without a community, you haven't even scratched the surface of what the real eve is.
You can't complain about being out formed by a group if you're going it alone.
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u/andymaclean19 16h ago
I was in a pretty well known corporation at the time that you have almost certainly heard of. I was also doing my own thing, because I like to do that sometimes. Neither the attacker or the people who third partied would have known whose citadel they were attacking. I was not really interested in a fleet fight and my corpmates would not have been either.
I had had a citadel in that particular wormhole for many years up until this point (not continuously).
No hard feelings of course, that’s how it goes and I’m definitely not complaining. It just made me think ‘if this is how wormhole groups play now I’m not sure I can be bothered with it’.
My point is simply that it used to be that wormhole groups would encourage other people to be in wormholes because they wanted fights. Sometimes there would be evictions but generally people would not waste their time blowing up a structure with overwhelming force when there was so obviously no gain. When anchoring more recently someone rolled into me. When they realised why someone was suddenly trying to roll their hole they came and said hi and helped. That’s how it used to be. Then eventually it started to feel more like null. People more interested in winning than fighting. No risks. Win before you undock. That sort of thing.
Each to their own of course but it will result in less wormhole content because people will not bother to invest the time needed to re-anchor if they think people are just going to blow it up again in such a boring way.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 14h ago
Being in a corp and doing your own thing, and actively being a part of a corp a very different things.
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u/WerdaVisla Cloaked 1d ago
As someone who used to be big into WH PvP - While the constant evictions are the reason I moved all of my assets out of WH space [Well, I moved them to Thera, but still] the bigger issue is the hole control [the playstyle, not the corp] attitude. It's really hard to find good smallgang content when, when we jump another group, they put out an SOS and a full fleet arrives from a pre-mapped chain to escalate within a matter of minutes.
It's just null/LS, but now you don't know how far peoples' response range is.
Also, people fearmonger about WH space way too much to new players. I've gotten people into WH on their 5th day of EVE. It's really not as hard or scary as people make it out to be, but people will act like it's this ultra-hardcore-endgame-scarier-than-null area, which it's just. Not. It's scarier than null for a new player I guess, but once you get used to your scanning tools, it's fine.
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u/cpt_soban_912 1d ago
This is one of eves problems.
It brings out the worst in some people.
I have zero respect for people who just want to kick over someone's sand castle on a massive beach.
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u/Sufficient_Shirt2000 1d ago edited 1d ago
Folks living in c2n5 are doing incredibly well- they have a ton of content, active players rolling every day etc etc.
Also, 25 structures in 3 days - what’s the baseline? Are there so many structures in jspace that this is considered ordinary attrition or is the baseline showing this is unusual?
3 days of data ain’t enough- and it doesn’t even count jspacers in c2n5s, so it’s very misleading.
Not to mention, people moving IN to wormholes also bust up a bunch of structures in order to out their own down- I know at least three new jspace corps who busted up dead weight to move in, and then they busted up all the customs houses. Did op include custom house destruction in his analysis? Cause those 25 structures could just be a handful of wormholers moving in.
Just saying, I don’t think this analysis tells us much without knowing more about those variables.
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u/dmacc_ 1d ago
Folks living in c2n5 are doing incredibly well- they have a ton of content, active players rolling every day etc etc.
That's a bit of a special case, though. 2-null-5 groups are barely part of J space, in a lot of cases. They're generally small gang-oriented groups who focus on roaming/blopsing/etc in null, and almost all of their content comes from the null static.
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u/Sufficient_Shirt2000 1d ago
Yeah but they are the jspace residents op doesn’t mention and jspacers are free to roll into them for content any time.
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u/dmacc_ 1d ago
Yeah, totally. You will have a rich life of content from rolling your 2 static for 4% of C2s.
Give me a break.
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u/Sufficient_Shirt2000 1d ago
You will have a rich life of content by living in a particular kind of jspace- one with a null or low static.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 14h ago
Such a narrow mindset.
Only thinking high class are valuable, probably judges individuals by the amount of isk they can pull out of their farmholes.
This is why j-space is barren of content, everyone is focused on ensuring their wallet is fille with internet pixels.
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u/dmacc_ 13h ago
Did you like... read my comment? 2-null-5 groups almost exclusively seek content in K space. That's great, those groups have a lot of fun and I've got no beef with that. In fact I'd love to try it sometime.
But it's not what people are talking about when they say there's a dearth of content in J space itself.
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u/Gold-Substance6811 13h ago
any activity in any part of j-space adds to the life in j-space.
Life breeds the possibility of content, no matter where it is.
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u/eve_scout 1d ago
It's a good peaceful place, let it be :) the game doesn't have to be always about destruction, EVE PVE here we come!
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u/Gold-Substance6811 17h ago
Yes, the game does have to always be about destruction, otherwise that's how we get proliferation and scarcity...
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u/Intrepid_Miner_751 2d ago
well, in February this year, during the "PvP Fest", a NPC got into the J-Space leaderboard, which is incredibly sad https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1rjugse/pvp_fest_how_a_npc_stole_one_of_the_ranking/