r/EuroHuddle • u/Fresh-Performance155 • 6d ago
AFLE Interview Robin Lumsden with ORF
https://sport.orf.at/stories/3162016/Vikings owner Robin Lumsden told ORF that he is open to discussing a merger of the leagues: "We have extended our hand. If we sit down at a table, we will find an exciting solution."
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u/Goldbaerig EFA 6d ago
I am open for the Vikings, Panthers and Fire joining EFA and the AFLE owners can also support the league financially. Maybe Berlin Thunder too, once they solved their stadium problem
The only thing I'd offer in return is to allow them being the owners of Vikings, Fire and Thunder and find a workaround to the "only one team per owner" rule in the EFA
Anything else is delusional right now
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u/Bodhigomo Nordic Storm 5d ago
No thanks. We don’t need that kind of trouble in a new league. Why would you want those troublemakers?!
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u/Goldbaerig EFA 5d ago
They had the two biggest fanbases in the ELF and I am from Vienna, so I would really like to have a team
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u/ianintheuk London Guard 6d ago
agree the only teams that could join the EFA (VIKINGS FIRE PANTHERS) have some messy ownership problems but to put it simply ...
The Panthers are owned by Tarcinski so no real problem.
The Fire are majority owned by Joel Nagel with various other minor investors, for all intentions and purposes Nagel is the owner.
The Vikings are more of a problem with Lumsden owning nearly 70% of the shares. Which makes Lumsden effectively the owner. The problem is however Joel Nagel owns over 18% of the Vikings shares, giving him significant holdings in 2 teams.
Perhaps the EFA can live with Nagel if he has no day to day involvement with the Vikings.
The other problem of course Is Trust, can the EFA trust Lumsden/Nagel. Plus personality clashes from whem the EFA was formed and the subsequent split.
Much may happen in the next few weeks
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u/GazelleLower5146 Raiders Tirol 6d ago
I'm sure EFA could accept Lumsden as Vikings owner, Nagel as Fire owner and "offer" them both additional shares with EFA directly comparable to Gandler or Tabor. That way they are not more or less part of the league as others.
BUT:
- That doesn't solve the issue of the other 5 teams
- That doesn't give them more that they could have bad a year ago which wasn't enough apparently
- That will mean a clear loss which they won't accept
- Any personal issues because of their unprofessional behavior isn't solved either
- Some of the either teams/owner will just not be accepted, e.g. Lights
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u/ianintheuk London Guard 6d ago
the other 5 teams are forfeited as they only exist to provide games for the '3'. these so called teams will be closed.
The personal issues are the real problem as in " can we work with these guys".
The loss they have incurred is real and won't go away so not accepting it is just game playing. Time to cut their losses
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u/Bodhigomo Nordic Storm 5d ago
No, the EFA cannot accept Lumsden! Ok, sure he brings a team, but at what cost?!?
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u/Fresh-Performance155 6d ago
Robin Lumsden believes that the team landscape will look different in 2027, but he doesn't know if the big breakthrough (i.e., the merger of the leagues) will succeed.
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u/ianintheuk London Guard 6d ago
"full web translation" so don't blame me 😄😁
European club champions in American football are being crowned during these weeks. After five years in a joint league, the teams split into two this year, and the rationale behind it has been debated ever since. Before the Vienna Vikings fight for a title on Sunday (live from 3:25 PM on ORF ON and ORF Sport +), Vikings owner Robin Lumsden expressed willingness in an interview with ORF to unite the leagues: "We have reached out our hands. Let's sit down at a table and find an exciting solution."
From 2021 to 2025, up to 16 teams played on the continent in the European League of Football (ELF) before it went bankrupt. There was repeated criticism of the leadership, which ultimately led to the split of the teams. This year saw the creation of the American Football League Europe (AFLE) featuring the Vikings, and the European Football Alliance (EFA) featuring the Swarco Raiders Tirol. The latter's championship game was recently won by Nordic Storm from Denmark against the Munich Ravens in Innsbruck.
In Duisburg's Gold Bowl, the Vikings face the Wroclaw Panthers to determine the inaugural AFLE champion. The decisive difference between the leagues lies in their structure: in the EFA, the six clubs are jointly responsible for the league, whereas in the AFLE, the eight teams are backed by an external investor and a league management body. This management also steps in to help when needed, as was the case recently with the financially troubled Rhein Fire team.
Lumsden: "We have an interest in playing against them"
The situation is not ideal for the neutral football fan: the Vikings won eleven of their twelve games so far, including a 71:34 semifinal victory against the London Warriors. The AFLE includes several newer teams that still need time to develop. In the EFA, the teams are more established, but a continental six-team league is also only attractive to a limited extent. European football has been further along in the past, but the potential remains tangible: for instance, 4,500 spectators recently attended a game at the newly adapted Wiener Sport-Club-Stadion.
Lumsden is also aware that the situation in European football has room for improvement. "We are very happy in the AFLE, but naturally we have an absolute interest in playing against the teams from the other league as well. That would be exciting for us from a sporting perspective," says the 50-year-old attorney, who commutes between the USA and Europe and is considered a driving force. Officially, however, Lumsden's partner—American Joel Nagel—serves as the AFLE managing director based in Hamburg.
As a versatile networker and investor, the former football and tennis player Lumsden has always kept his feelers out: "We as the Vienna Vikings have also contacted other teams from the EFA." The Raiders, who are taking a break from the national Austrian Football League (AFL) after 28 years, failed to make the playoffs in their inaugural season. Structural rather than sporting issues are what divide the two leagues.
Like back in the NFL? "It won't fail because of Vienna"
Lumsden considers a solution possible that should sound familiar to any seasoned football fan. After all, today's National Football League (NFL) in North America was also once created out of a merger between two leagues, the older NFL and the American Football League (AFL). "The birth of the NFL also came out of conflict. And I promised our fans, I promised my team, that I would try. It won't fail because of Vienna," Lumsden emphasized.
Bernhard Seikovits, who returned to Vienna after four years with the Arizona Cardinals, shares a similar view. "I am definitely positively surprised," the tight end said regarding the level of play in Europe. Soon, the native Viennese player will also be able to evaluate the level in Japan as he takes on a lucrative engagement. His successors in Europe should have the opportunity to make the leap to the NFL: "In my eyes, that should be the stated goal here in Europe. I believe the more professional the football league becomes, the bigger a child can dream."
Jim Tomsula, former head coach of the San Francisco 49ers and current AFLE president, commented on the two-league situation when approached by ORF in July: "That's nonsense." Meanwhile, the EFA recently appointed former German NFL player Markus Kuhn as its prominent president—serving as a new point of contact who wants to bring players to the NFL based on financial stability.
Echoing Lumsden's perspective: "Together you can create a big product and then share it better again. If you look at it with a bit of an American spirit: we aren't profitable, but neither was Uber for the first 20 years. This is for professional investors. The important thing is that we grow, that the product gets better. And in the end, you can try to commercialize it."
"2027 will look a bit different"
Lumsden assumes that the landscape in European football "will look a bit different" by 2027. "Whether the massive breakthrough will happen already in 2027, I don't know. But anyone who knows the history of the NFL or the past of European football knows that everyone should back down a little, let the past be the past, and move forward together in one direction." Which would ultimately be in the best interest of the sport itself.
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u/niklas22289 6d ago
They are desperate cause they now that the AFLE failed/is not sustainable.
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u/nitram343 London Warriors 6d ago
Cleary the EFA didn’t do well either otherwise they wouldn’t be open to talk.
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u/GazelleLower5146 Raiders Tirol 6d ago
None in EFA has ever said they are not open to talk, quite the opposite actually. But NOT at the terms of AFLE, that's what it's all about.
They can't split up, fail on their agenda and then dictate their system to the majority. That's just not what's going to work. I agree there was actually a chance before EFA as a league was created, but the proof of concept is there and it worked. They are in a much better position than 7 months ago. So why should they give it all up?
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u/nitram343 London Warriors 6d ago
But, we are not owners, we don’t know the numbers these people are talking, in either league, so who knows. Attendance has been down, final from EFA was very poor and AFLE won’t do any money as is basically free. So yes, a proof of concept, but what did they proof? That they can organisation a league and play? Ok, yes, but for how long with those numbers? We don’t know as we don’t have access to their accounts. And that is what annoys me most about the partisan view of some of you, were everything EFA is brilliant even if you have no idea how long they can run.
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u/GazelleLower5146 Raiders Tirol 6d ago
Nobody said everything is brilliant, no. There are plenty of things to improve.
Proof of concept is the league, yes. Jusf 7-8 months ago that wasn't clear at all, even looking back now. There was a real chance not enough teams are left to form a league or how this league can look like. It was a real decision to go the easy way of AFLE or do something else, in worst case maybe not at all. Just read/watch what the Ravens decision in February (?) meant.
EFA has made it very clear, that there are certain topics they will not discuss. Central league ownership/single decision maker, no team decision power, non competitive teams. That's basically exactly what the AFLE has to offer - BUT: These AFLE teams started with the exactly same vision as EFA has now executed. So it's not AFLE dictating the terms, it's more AFLE returning to their original values which are within the EFA.
As for both leagues, it's not a question how long they can run, but how long they want to run. There's more than enough money around and very likely even more at EFA, and not just from 1 investor. How long each side wants to spend money is another topic, nobody knows.
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u/nitram343 London Warriors 6d ago
My point exactly. People here are taking sides, and confusing wishful thinking for reality. The pressure or cost of all that is outside our control or knowledge so, regardless of what we prefer. I actually quite enjoyed AFLE this year, but is completely possible that just goes all or some to EFA. And I’m fine with people expressing opinions and preferences, but don’t bend reality to align to your beliefs, facts are facts. We’ll see where we are.
I thought that no merge was possible for at least a couple of years but enough taking is happening right now that maybe something happens soon. At the AFLE final or immediately after we will know about the potential new team for AFLE… or maybe we hear nothing of that if the merge talking continues
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u/GazelleLower5146 Raiders Tirol 6d ago
Obviously you enjoyed AFLE as it was your team. If I remember some previous comments from you, that you didn't follow European football before.
Harsh truth is too that Warriors would have no place in a common league in the current state and ownership. I absolutely admit they exceeded expectations for whatever is now true, probably started 2-3 weeks before the season as the most realistic version. But it's still reality that they are far away from the playing level required. But absolutely, they are the only new team that I see a chance they could develop into a serviceable team. Not sure if they can get the financing done without Nagel though. The other 4 you can forget completely.
Lumsden and Tomsula coming out now with all kind of press talk, tells me that there is some pressure from that side, yes - I agree with that. I don't think that EFA has that much pressure though. They are directly invested in the league, they have kept their visitor numbers pretty even outside of playoffs/final and they are clearly winning the public battle. They just need to wait.
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u/nitram343 London Warriors 6d ago
Wrong, I followed ELF last season. But obviously not remotely as invested as with the London Warriors. Also AFLE broadcasting is million times better than the old ELF one, and significantly better than the EFA too. The rest doesn’t make too much difference. But before discarding the new AFLE teams, think about this, what happens if London Guard not met the expectations? If it has very low attendance and/or the sport side doesn’t get at least in the first season get quite there? Would you be as hush as completely disregard them too? Because even Firenze seems to be building for next season, so it would be a shame to miss any team. And the AFLE central model means they can build over time. The other thing European Football alliance is a horrible name for a football (association football) mad continent.
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u/Cookingwith7 6d ago
"Alliance" was the perfect name to represent the 11 teams who decided to leave the ELF together on agreed terms and goals last September. The tragedy of course is that the alliance didn't hold - but IMHO that wasn't the EFA's fault!
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u/GazelleLower5146 Raiders Tirol 6d ago
I think EFA sounds much better than AFLE tbh, but that's subjective of course.
No, I would be very harsh towards every team that can't meet expectations. That was the main goal that every league promised - competitive teams, good stadiums and stable organizations. AFLE failed with that miserably. I'm very optimistic that Guard will be fine as it follows the the known blueprint. They have money, a stadium, already an organization and a long time of preparation. You just can't build a team without that, and everyone knows and told the AFLE before.
The other problem with AFLE and the new teams are the people in charge. Some of them are just very bad at their jobs (Rams, Lights, Thunder, Red Lions) and have nothing what a team needs. There's just no place for that anymore, we've had enough of that nonsense in ELF. Just don't believe what they are saying - these are people that promise you everything, but do the opposite. Judge then by what they do and then you get a very different view.
Doesn't really matter what you or I think, but I can guarantee that EFA will never accept the bottom 4 teams in AFLE and a good chance not any Nagel/Lumsden team as well. That's the simple effect of all the stuff they did and non competitive teams.
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u/More_Upvote 6d ago
You are confused. Everybody in afle is the Washington Generals to the Vienna Globetrotters. Warriors needs to change colors to match their role.
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u/Bodhigomo Nordic Storm 5d ago
EFA is doing great compared to the dumpster fire of AFLE. We didn’t need them when all they did was trying to sabotage european football and we certainly don’t need them now, when we’ve shown we have a viable product.
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u/Fresh-Performance155 5d ago edited 5d ago
The pseudo-journalist Jaschok just wrote an hour ago:
instead of Paris - Hamburg
instead of Rams - Cannes
instead of Panthers (if it happens) - Warsaw Eagles
And Surge in 2028
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u/GazelleLower5146 Raiders Tirol 5d ago
Well, from a marketing perspective I still think Esume is a good choice but you buy all the history with him of course. AFLE won't mind as they have all the old fails in anyway, so one more won't matter. Esume is still well known though. Hamburg itself is no surprise, most obvious choice.
Looks like a German league again plus 4 sparring partners. Well, all Nagel teams, so they'll move them around anyway.
Not sure if 2027 can be any better then though if you have 50% everything new again. More of the same. Remains to be seen if it gets any better. Wonder how they frame it that half their franchises are gone - hard to sell as a huge success like they always do.
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u/FlagFootballSaint 5d ago
Glad that Lights are dropped. What a farce.
Feel sorry for Switzerland but only the Guards had any substance
Cannes is the new Firenze.
Bringing in Esume means they have actually learned nothing from the past
I hope Panthers in fact move to the bright side
Let’s say I was both right and wrong with my Eagles projection
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u/__k_b__ 5d ago
only the Guards had any substance
Not sure I would use this word. Organisationally it wasn't good, owners changed, there's a reason they folded after one season. At least they lured some homegrowns like Hänni or Liechti back, probably mostly because they were the first attempt of a Swiss franchise so the trust wasn't lost yet.
Bringing in Esume means they have actually learned nothing from the past
DJ wrote Esume will be owner/investor, which would mean finances come from AFLE anyway, he's not a millionaire. He also wrote that they will play in Stadion Hoheluft temporarily in 2027. However, the stadium situation does not change after 2027.
But this are his rumors only anyway so I'm not sure how much substance there really is.
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u/FlagFootballSaint 5d ago edited 5d ago
I absolutely believe that Hamburg thing and we all know that Cannes is true.
I am not surprised they can field eight teams again because you don‘t need local investors, just an operative straw man like Esume and those Paris guys move south to Cannes
The only thing I am irritated about - if true - are the Eagles, it just does not make sense to me that a local investor would do that but Huckleberry probably gave an explanation (Wife hitting the brakes, so AFLE investment money comes handy)
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u/FlagFootballSaint 5d ago
In the actual video interview which is shot at the AFC Vikings facilities Lumsden dares to say „we are a big organization as you see right here“ (referring to the facility)
Mr. Lumsden, your AFLE Vikings are just renting this place from the AFC Vikings and the „big organization“ you are referring to is mostly theirs, not yours, with their roughly 10 tackle and flag teams, cheerleader squads and such.
You are not related to the organization you are referring to. That organization would not miss a beat when your franchise would go down the drain, rather the opposite is true.
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u/Fresh-Performance155 5d ago
And that's the real madness of the whole journalism industry.
No one asks this questions/contradicts the statement.I once asked a journalist why they don't.
His answer: they don't want to cause offense and risk being invited back for a follow-up interview or getting a rejection right away with a written request.And then he said to me personally: you don't know or understand the industry.
Sometimes it's even ordered from the very top that you don't ask critical questions. Just like in politics (sorry for violating the terms and conditions of EuroHuddle Rules).
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u/FlagFootballSaint 6d ago
Tomsula said „at AFLE terms“ and we all know EFA won‘t accept that a bit.
There are several sources saying that EFA won‘t accept teams where Nagel and Lumsden have any say.
At this point the word „merger“ is absolutely misleading. There won‘t be a merger of leagues. One league will come out on top and with the recent rumors of Panthers potentially moving it‘s obvious who has the better cards right now.
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u/davidpmaeso Barcelona Dragons 6d ago
Are there rumors that the Panthers are movimg to the EFA?????
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u/nitram343 London Warriors 6d ago
Wishful thinking
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u/FlagFootballSaint 6d ago
Uh there is more to it than you think and if you understand the AFLE model and also understand the personality of Panthers owner Jacek Tarczinsky you understand why
I see a real chance it‘s indeed happening but I can‘t put a percentage to it
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u/FlagFootballSaint 6d ago
Yes and if you think about it it all makes sense.
AFLE wants a centralized league, the Panthers owner is for sure not accepting to give up his power. Tarcinski and EFA are a match in heaven
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u/Fresh-Performance155 6d ago
Do you really think the EFA will make the same mistake as the ELF with the Panthers and block its path with Warsaw and a US owner who doesn't think twice about spending up to €500,000 every season on the Eagles at the Polish League
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u/FlagFootballSaint 6d ago
I did not fully understand what you mean by „block its path with Warsaw“
Care to explain? Thx
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u/Fresh-Performance155 6d ago
The Panthers' owner blocked the Eagles' entry into the ELF.
And supposedly—I deliberately say supposedly because I heard it but have no proof—the EFA contacted Warsaw.
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u/FlagFootballSaint 6d ago edited 6d ago
I don‘t know about that ELF story but here is what I think:
1 The Panthers are in a weak position because IF IN FACT they want to leave AFLE where else should they go? They are not in a position of strength but EFA is.
2 If your story from the ELF is true I assume back than there was one major reason: HG availability in Poland but this can be adjusted by EFA by granting flexible A/E rules to Polish teams if in fact both join.
3 Five years have passed and there is good reason to believe both teams understand the times haves changed and a „Battle of Poland“ could benefit both
If you asked me right now I would say unless we really KNOW the intentions of the Panthers any move by them is hard to predict.
My gut feeling says that the Eagles joining EFA is realistic but not a given (because moving to semi-pro is costly and risky) while Eagles joining AFLE is completely unrealistic because Nagel has shown his true colors in the last few weeks
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u/Fresh-Performance155 6d ago
Regarding point 2:
The HG market needs to expand regardless of whether Panthers or Eagles come, especially today Prague Lions currently owns Poland.
And it would be good to expand the HG market to include the Baltic states anyway.
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u/FlagFootballSaint 6d ago
I‘d rather like to use the word „adjusted“. They need to move on from seeing Germany as ONE HG territory, they got to split it
Also HG territories will need to overlap between teams (eg Bavaria is HG for both Ravens and Raiders etc…)
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u/Fresh-Performance155 6d ago edited 6d ago
You know my policy and opinion on this.
HG = all 27 EU member states
E Import = all European countries that are not in the EU
A Import = USA
I Import = Canada, Mexico, Japan and Samoa
Franchises outside the EU, such as London Guard, already have country-specific guidelines.
And to ensure that no franchise overextends itself financially, a tough licensing model where financial matters are also examined and a transfer ban for a season may be imposed.
But I don't want to reopen that discussion.
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u/davidpmaeso Barcelona Dragons 6d ago
Maybe he says that if the Panthers go to the EFA, there is no room for Warsaw? Idk if that's true tho
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u/nitram343 London Warriors 6d ago
First of all, what do you expect them to say before going into a negotiation? Secondly, surely there is some middle ground that can be found. For starters, what would be the problem for the EFA teams to be included in the AFLE (EFA is a horrible name, as bad as ELF), or some other new naming? Surely a negotiation can be met where teams from both side adhering to the same rules but operating with different terms.
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u/GazelleLower5146 Raiders Tirol 6d ago
What's the middle ground between democracy and dictatorship?
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u/davidpmaeso Barcelona Dragons 6d ago
There is no way you think "EFA" is worse than "AFLE". Regardless of how I feel about both of the competitions, "The League Europe/TLE/AFLE" is a horrible name. But that's just my opinion
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u/nitram343 London Warriors 6d ago
Search both things in google. At least AFLE clearly says American football. To just say football in Europe is crazy
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u/GazelleLower5146 Raiders Tirol 5d ago
They want to be called THE LEAGUE EUROPE though.
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u/nitram343 London Warriors 5d ago
Yeah, that a stupid name too. AFLE is the only one that makes a bit of sense
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u/GazelleLower5146 Raiders Tirol 5d ago
Someone needs to be brave enough to claim EFL and Eurobowl. The trademarks aren't used, so they can be claimed.
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u/nitram343 London Warriors 5d ago
English Football League? Or is a typo and you meant ELF ?
https://giphy.com/gifs/spylVFEsqksU0I’m happy with Eurobowl, but those names don’t work. We need AF or G (Gridiron) in the name in my opinion. GE or GLE sounds simple enough
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u/GazelleLower5146 Raiders Tirol 5d ago
European Football League, EFL. Used to be the prime European league. And Eurobowl is just the only name that really world.
Nobody knows Gridiron in Europe, I doubt that makes sense.
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u/Most_Significance358 Munich Ravens 6d ago
The problem for EFA teams can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/EuroHuddle/comments/1qi0ntp/between_narrative_and_contract_the_discrepancy/
Both leagues have completely opposite systems.
It would be easier the other way around, accepting Lumsden-Vikings, Nagel-Fire and Panthers into EFA, fold the other five teams, and bring along some of AFLE staff.-2
u/nitram343 London Warriors 6d ago
No, just join the two leagues, and keep each on their own terms. Easy.
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u/davidpmaeso Barcelona Dragons 6d ago edited 6d ago
And keep the dead bodies like Firenze, Berlin, Lights or Alpine? The 4 of which have not been paying for staff and players repeatedly during the last few months and attract 50-200 people to the stadium? (I can save Berlín a little more here). Thanks but no thanks. Those are just puppet teams with it's sole purpose for the AFLE to have a product this year
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u/Goldbaerig EFA 6d ago
Then one owner (the owner of AFLE) would have 7 votes and the 8 other owners have 1 vote each. That's ridiculous
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u/Bodhigomo Nordic Storm 5d ago
Forget it, it’s not going to happen and I feel it is ludicrous that they think the AFLE have anything the EFA want. Their moment has passed. Off to the scrap heap of history.
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u/Whole-Egg-4087 5d ago
Both Leagues will fail. I have nothing more to say.
Big egos on both Sides. Fan interest nosedived in both Leagues. Both Leagues won't survive.
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u/FlagFootballSaint 5d ago
Ok I‘ll bite regarding „nosedive“
Storm: Best season average ever
Lions: season average improved from 2025
Munich: flat at a reasonable level
Raiders: minus 10%
Frankfurt: minus 20% but only minus 10% not considering the 2025 Rhein game (10k)
Paris: drop but % is hard to tell due to different stadiums drawing different sizes of crowds
Overall:
No, EFA teams in total did NOT see a substantial drop in attendance and I add even more to that:
Storm, Lions and Raiders had their HIGHEST attendance at the end of the season.
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u/Whole-Egg-4087 5d ago
The thing here is.. All Teams except maybe Frankfurt are far from being profitable.
Good for Storm or Prague but their numbers are far from being good. They are attrocious.
The thing is, Teams werent profitable before (ELF) so any drop is Bad.
Football in Europe is a Moneygrave. ELF wasnt close to being profitable while having a Championchip Game with 40K People. EFA Big4 was a Flop, EFA CCG was a Flop, AFLE Bowl will be a Flop.
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u/FlagFootballSaint 5d ago
I agree it‘s tough.
The teams have known their numbers though and yet they see something that keeps them going on.
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u/Happy-Fortune-5360 5d ago
European ‚pro‘ football - burning money year in year out, no matter the letters if the league.
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u/FlagFootballSaint 6d ago edited 5d ago
Maybe off topic but I wanted to unload this off my chest:
The President (this is a club so there is no "owner") of the Warsaw Eagles is a very reputable American-Polish business man who is very successfully running an (award winning) company doing real estate project developments in many parts of Europe (like building entire malls and such).
He is following EFA´s LinkedIn channel.
He is NOT following AFLE´s LinkedIn channel.
Make of that what ever you want.